Resource List thread - Inaccuracy in official records

[rbartlett]

So thinking out loud here....
You're suggesting that perhaps Richmond player and policeman W.Scott 1910 is the later policeman W. Scott-Rogers of 1914.
And that BOTH those men are therefore the same footballer - that being W. Scott RFC 1910 and Walter Benjamin Rogers RFC 1914.

And so the Walter Benjamin Rogers the Police Museum has as being born in 1915, is the son of him?

 

[35Daicos]

So thinking out loud here....
You're suggesting that perhaps Richmond player and policeman W.Scott 1910 is the later policeman W. Scott-Rogers of 1914.
And that BOTH those men are therefore the same footballer - that being W. Scott RFC 1910 and Walter Benjamin Rogers RFC 1914.

And so the Walter Benjamin Rogers the Police Museum has as being born in 1915, is the son of him?

I do think the 1910 player is likely to be the 1914 man (Walter Benjamin Rogers). There was a policeman who was a Scott-Rogers (with the hyphen, obviously). I don't see a connection with the one born in 1915:

That appears to just be a coincidence!

 

[rbartlett]

Understood.
So are still back at the start then. W.Scott - policeman - Euroa - Richmond FC 1910 1 game. Unknown

 

[35Daicos]

Understood.
So are still back at the start then. W.Scott - policeman - Euroa - Richmond FC 1910 1 game. Unknown

I am worried about this bit:

Why would he have only joined the police force in 1911 if he had already been serving at Euroa? Yet his son was called George Scott Rogers:

He was at Richmond Police Station in 1912:

This will probably refer to him a couple of years later:

 

[rbartlett]

I'll see if the Police Museum have anything about Scott-Rogers in 1914

Email sent asking what they know about Scott-Rogers

 

[35Daicos]

The 1914 Richmond player was indeed in the police force:

It's interesting that they mention his "country connection". This is the death reg. for his son, who died in 1957:

I think it just has to be that there was the one Richmond player who played in 1910 and then again in 1914. What the name change is all about I have no idea!

 

[rbartlett]

1914 Richmond Annual Report says under Premiership Matches:

Rogers, S .... 1
That's interesting they put the initial as S, and not W. S in this case could mean Scott.
(of course there is often typos in early RFC Annual Reports)

 

[35Daicos]

I think it has to be that he wasn't in the police force when he was at Euroa (and seemingly was known as Scott), and only joined up after he went to the city at the end of 1910. Somewhere along the way he seems to have started calling himself Rogers, and that was his surname when he married in 1915. I don't know what that (change) was about, but it does look certain to me that Walter Benjamin Rogers, who played 1 game for Richmond in 1914, is the same person who played the 1 game in 1910.

The Richmond-based police constable was often called Scott-Rogers:

Sometimes they neglected to put the hyphen in:

Both of his sons had Scott as part of their name:

 

[rbartlett]

Ive reached out to Stephen Rogers to see what he had on file for both players (ie: are they perhaps written in a League permit book, or RH Campbell notes etc)

 

[rbartlett]

Euroa FC are also checking their history books etc for any reference of Walter Scott around 1908/09/1910

 

[35Daicos]

A relative of Peter Eakins has notified Collingwood FC that his DOB should be 16 February 1947, not 12 February 1947. It's now been changed on Collingwood Forever:

There’s lots of trees on Ancestry for him and they all have 16 February 1947.
Rather strangely, it's half right on his Wikipedia page!:

AustralianFootball.com, AFL Tables and The Encyclopedia have it as 12 February 1947.
Oliver Gigacz
*Paul*

Edit: It's now been fixed on his Wikipedia page!

 

[stemline]

Well good, perhaps they could check that out then and get exact date to complete update as per summary.

Summary: remove James Oakes (1914-1988) and replace with Leopold Alfred "Jim" Oakes (DOB May or June 1912 [in/near Bealiba, Victoria] - DOD 16 June 1996 [in/near Brisbane, Queensland])

I obtained DOB for Leopold Alfred Oakes. 10th June 1912.

 

[rbartlett]

Hi there
Eurora historian Steve Hewlett has replied with what he can see from his end regarding Walter Scott.
----

"I’m confident that the Scott that played for the Euroa teams of 1909/1910 seasons only was indeed Walter Scott. In Cliff Halsall’s history of Football in Euroa, Scott is named in the best players from each year.
....
"I’ve searched the Gazette match reports from 1908 and couldn’t find a mention of Scott, the first being when he was named as an emergency for the Wednesday club on 25 May 1909, as W. Scott. On 8 June 1909 he was named as an inclusion to the Line Association/weekend team as Scott.

Fast forward to 1910 and a Scott was named on the match committee for the weekend team. He was more often that not named in the best players for that season, and named in Cliff’s history as the top player for the year.

In Nov 1910 he was given a send-off at the local pub, bound for Werribee, although I couldn’t find for what reason."

A huge trove of Euroa cuttings from 1909 and 1910 are provided by the historian at this dropbox link below.
(interesting that Euroa were bundled out of the finals on Aug 20. Richmond's Scott played Aug 27)
Dropbox articles --> Walter Scott

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

I think most football sources have mistakenly named Stephen Taubert as Steven Taubert
AFL Encyclopedia, AFL Tables, australianfootball.com, Tigerland Archive all use the name Steven Taubert

However while he was playing, newspaper match reports used Stephen Taubert (where I have seen him named)
He had football cards in 1977, 1978, 1979, 1984 and 1985 - all of which were named Stephen Taubert
When he ended up as Swans ruck coach in 2017 he was referred to as Stephen Taubert

A search on Ancestry shows him as living in East Malvern in 1977 with the name "Stephen David Taubert" on the Electoral Roll.

Pretty confident he should be a Stephen - would be good if we could update records to his correct name

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

The recorded birth date for Alec Tayler (Geelong) appears to be incorrect - it currently 16 May 1892 in all sources I can find.

The player was ex-Lara (was a foundation player in 1920) and played five senior games for Geelong in the second half of the 1923 season - this would have made him 31 on debut which was unusually old for that period. He was still playing as late as 1925.

I put a bunch of Trove refs into his wiki page and am confident he is correctly identified as Alexander Tayler, son of Charles William Tayler and Mary Ann McHarry.

Vic BDM search shows his records as:

This suggests an 1898 birth - meaning he would have been 24-25 at the time he played and his recorded age at death also supports an 1898 date. Not sure why an 1892 date has been used but it appears to be wrong. Have not been able to find an exact date - is anyone on here able to find the exact date?

 

[35Daicos]

The recorded birth date for Alec Tayler (Geelong) appears to be incorrect - it currently 16 May 1892 in all sources I can find.

The player was ex-Lara (was a foundation player in 1920) and played five senior games for Geelong in the second half of the 1923 season - this would have made him 31 on debut which was unusually old for that period. He was still playing as late as 1925.

I put a bunch of Trove refs into his wiki page and am confident he is correctly identified as Alexander Tayler, son of Charles William Tayler and Mary Ann McHarry.

Vic BDM search shows his records as:
View attachment 1530573

This suggests an 1898 birth - meaning he would have been 24-25 at the time he played and his recorded age at death also supports an 1898 date. Not sure why an 1892 date has been used but it appears to be wrong. Have not been able to find an exact date - is anyone on here able to find the exact date?

I can't find anything that really helps, but did find it interesting that four Ancestry trees had his DOB as 16 May 1898 (all the others just have 1898). The birth of a sibling was registered in 1892, making it seem even less likely Alec could have been born in that year:

Maybe 1892 (instead of 1898) was a simple typing error that's caused an issue in the AFL's records? AustralianFootball.com has the player as Taylor on his page, even though it's Tayler in the url.

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

Dick Taylor (Melb, NM) is listed with DOB 28 November 1901 in football sources.

His funeral notice in May 1962 identifies him as Richard John Taylor (late of M.F.C.) – confirms his identity and date of death are correct.

Vic BDM records show his parents were Richard Taylor

Richard Taylor

Age

50

Ht

173cm

Wt

76kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

17.1

4star

K

12.1

4star

HB

5.1

4star

M

2.7

3star

T

2.1

4star

No current season stats available

D

10.6

3star

K

7.4

3star

HB

3.2

3star

M

1.6

2star

T

1.4

4star

and Charlotte Walker and his birth was registered in 1901.

The early number (registration 171 in 1901) is a good clue that his birth was actually in 1900 rather than 1901. Also, his age at death was given as 61 which is correct for a late 1900 birth.

Ancestry has a baptism record for Richard John Taylor that seems to be him.

I can’t tell if 18 Nov or 28 Nov date is correct – transcription errors are common in Ancestry (transcribers are usually reading from old handwritten records) so my suspicion is his actual DOB was 28 Nov 1900. I couldn’t find a birth notice in Trove that would confirm the correct date.

Summary: Update DOB for Dick Taylor from 28 November 1901 to 28 November 1900

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

Bill Taylor (Geelong) appears to be another mis-identified player.

This article in the Weekly Times describes him in some detail

• Aged 23 in Sept 1926 – i.e. born between Sep 1902 and Sep 1903
• “Son of the soil” – from a farming family
• Lived with his parents on a farm at Smeaton
• When aged 16 (1919) he played with Smeaton
• In 1922 Golden Point in Ballarat secured his services

Current dates of birth & death for Bill Taylor in football records seem to be those for William Mortimer Taylor, born in Skelton in Cleveland, Yorkshire, England and died in Heidelberg. This man served in the Royal Air Force in the UK at the end of WWI and apparently came to Australia in the early 1920s and initially settled in NSW. In August 1924 he was sentenced to 12 months imprisonment for indecently assaulting a three year old girl.

The first time I can find him in Victoria is in news reports stating he was living in Woori Yallock in 1939 and he also served in WWII. Probate records confirm date of death as 3 Apr 1977.

He cannot be the footballer given the description in article above.

Searching families called Taylor living in Smeaton gave me one viable candidate - William Taylor, son of William James Taylor (1868–1951) and Philippa Sophia Baker (1874–1923)

Born in Smeaton in 1903 (Vic BDM 1903/13658) likely to be mid year based on index number
Died in Creswick in early 1979 (Vic BDM 1979/3515) see photo of grave here (note grave incorrectly has 1904 as year of birth)

I think AFL will want exact dates of birth/death if we propose a change so if anyone is able to find specific dates that would be a great help.

 

[35Daicos]

Bill Taylor (Geelong) appears to be another mis-identified player.

This article in the Weekly Times describes him in some detail

• Aged 23 in Sept 1926 – i.e. born between Sep 1902 and Sep 1903
• “Son of the soil” – from a farming family
• Lived with his parents on a farm at Smeaton
• When aged 16 (1919) he played with Smeaton
• In 1922 Golden Point in Ballarat secured his services

Current dates of birth & death for Bill Taylor in football records seem to be those for William Mortimer Taylor, born in Skelton in Cleveland, Yorkshire, England and died in Heidelberg. This man served in the Royal Air Force in the UK at the end of WWI and apparently came to Australia in the early 1920s and initially settled in NSW. In August 1924 he was sentenced to 12 months imprisonment for indecently assaulting a three year old girl.

The first time I can find him in Victoria is in news reports stating he was living in Woori Yallock in 1939 and he also served in WWII. Probate records confirm date of death as 3 Apr 1977.

He cannot be the footballer given the description in article above.

Searching families called Taylor living in Smeaton gave me one viable candidate - William Taylor, son of William James Taylor (1868–1951) and Philippa Sophia Baker (1874–1923)

Born in Smeaton in 1903 (Vic BDM 1903/13658) likely to be mid year based on index number
Died in Creswick in early 1979 (Vic BDM 1979/3515) see photo of grave here (note grave incorrectly has 1904 as year of birth)

I think AFL will want exact dates of birth/death if we propose a change so if anyone is able to find specific dates that would be a great help.

I haven't found anything that helps with the DOB, but there's no doubt you have the right man. This chap was one of Bill Taylor's siblings, and he was a decent footballer too:

RootsWeb.com Home Page

RootsWeb - the Internet's oldest and largest FREE genealogical community. An award winning genealogical resource with searchable databases, free Web space, mailing lists, message boards, and more.

wc.rootsweb.com

They obviously took their time in registering his death.

William Mortimer Taylor (from his WWII records) was considerably smaller than the Geelong footballer!:

From the Weekly Times article:

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

View attachment 1537257
They obviously took their time in registering his death.
View attachment 1537258

They got his year of death wrong on his gravestone! I thought gravestone plus death registration made 1979 a safe bet...
I guess, given he was cremated, the inscription might have been made when his wife died in 1997

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

The Taylors are proving to be full of inaccuracies...
Reg Taylor (NM) has DOB on 19 March 1910 in football records but his actual birth was 19 March 1908

His full name was William Reginald Taylor and Vic BDM shows birth was registered in 1908

Full date confirmed in his divorce papers from 1940

Summary: Change DOB for Reg Taylor from 19 March 1910 to 19 March 1908

 

[rbartlett]

Ive reached out to Stephen Rogers to see what he had on file for both players (ie: are they perhaps written in a League permit book, or RH Campbell notes etc)

Rogers, the superstar, has replied.
He says:
"William Scott isn't in the registers
(whereas Robert Scott is) - but that's not unusual at all, for 1-gamers late in the season (and especially, after clearances had closed for the season).
All reports - you've clearly seen this, many times! - seem to refer to him as, words to the effect of, the burly ruckman from Euroa.

Moving on to 1914, the players register has:
Walter Benjamin Rogers
registered with Richmond on 1 - 4 - 1914

He doesn't seem to be in the clearance book, but possibly that's not a surprise, bearing in mind what Paul says:
"he played with the police team" "

 

[35Daicos]

Rogers, the superstar, has replied.
He says:
"William Scott isn't in the registers
(whereas Robert Scott is) - but that's not unusual at all, for 1-gamers late in the season (and especially, after clearances had closed for the season).
All reports - you've clearly seen this, many times! - seem to refer to him as, words to the effect of, the burly ruckman from Euroa.

Moving on to 1914, the players register has:
Walter Benjamin Rogers
registered with Richmond on 1 - 4 - 1914

He doesn't seem to be in the clearance book, but possibly that's not a surprise, bearing in mind what Paul says:
"he played with the police team" "

So where does that leave us?!

 

[rbartlett]

So where does that leave us?!

He's going to access a few more files at the AFL when he is back in. And then will come back to me.
I haven't made him aware yet of our theory about Scott (later name change), as just wanted to see what came up when I mentioned the two separate names.
Will keep you posted on the progress.

Side note; he advised me he wont be looking at any spreadsheet changes until later 2023. (of course, there are exceptions to that rule as we come across any major investigations)

 

[35Daicos]

Some time ago changes were made in the records of the AFL and Collingwood FC regarding several 1913 games. I've only just noticed the changes haven't appeared on AFL Tables and AustralianFootball.com:-

1913 Round 1:

1913: Melbourne vs Collingwood (Round 1)

forever.collingwoodfc.com.au

Fred Fielding and George Goodall did not play, while Reg Gibb and Alec Mutch did. Reg Gibb scored one goal, Percy Gibb did not score a goal.

**************

1913 Round 15:

1913: Collingwood vs University (Round 15)

forever.collingwoodfc.com.au

Fred Fielding played, Alec Mutch didn't.

1913 Round 18:

1913: Collingwood vs Sydney (Round 18)

forever.collingwoodfc.com.au

George Goodall played and Reg Gibb didn’t.

The lineup in The Herald shows it that way: LEAGUE. - SOUTH MELBOURNE V. COLLINGWOOD. MAGPIES' WINGS CLIPPED. SOUTH MELBOURNE WIN. - The Herald (Melbourne, Vic. : 1861 - 1954) - 30 Aug 1913

Oliver Gigacz
*Paul*