Resource List thread - Inaccuracy in official records

[35Daicos]

None of these births seem to have been registered with Vic BDM (unless Vic BDM 1873/23240 is Mary?) Looks very much like Matthew & Margaret were living in Abbotsford/Collingwood and just didn’t register the births of their children. This will make it hard to confirm a true date but trees on Ancestry have two different dates 23 Jul 1884 and 12 Apr 1885 - perhaps from a family bible or some such record?

Paul Daley seems to believe his grandfather was born at Collingwood in 1884:

So where did he get that from? Perhaps he doesn't know really know, and has just taken 48 (age in death notice) from 1932 and come up with 1884?! Maybe someone can get in touch with him to see if he knows for sure?

12 April 1885 appears as a DOB for him on Ancestry very often. The Ancestry user who has shared three family photos (including two wedding photos of the player), as well as a couple of stories of his life, has that as the DOB:
Perhaps that Ancestry user could be contacted to see where he got the DOB from.

 

[rbartlett]

A further comment regarding William "Bill" "Billy" Bourke.
The Guardian story says he came across to Tigerland when "he followed former Collingwood captain Charlie Pannam to Richmond in 1908".

But our records show that William Bourke played for Richmond VFA in:
1906 on Aug 18 v Nth Melb, Aug 25 v West Melb, Sept 8 vs Preston
1907 on July 27 v Williamstown, Aug 17 v Pt Melb, Sept 7 v Prahran, Sept 21 v West Melbourne (semi final).

Now if the 1906 and 1907 Richmond VFA player is Bourke, then he came to Richmond a year before Pannam did.
Pannam came to Richmond on June 13, 1907 FOOTBALL. - VICTORIAN LEAGUE. - The Argus (Melbourne, Vic. : 1848 - 1957) - 13 Jun 1907

Unless of course now, the 1906 and 1907 Bourke isn't William Bourke who came from Collingwood Trades and went onto Richmond VFL.

Does a permit exist of him coming to Richmond anywhere?

Interestingly, this May 7 1908 permit of a W Bourke getting a permit from Richmond to Preston couldn't be him really could it, cause was playing for Richmond the week earlier (in our first League game), and 2 days later for us in Rd 2 1908 and pretty much rest of the season for us. VICTORIAN FOOTBALL LEAGUE. - The Age (Melbourne, Vic. : 1854 - 1954) - 7 May 1908

So in summary
Is the 1906 and 1907 Richmond VFA also the same William Bourke who would play for Richmond VFL in 1908 and 1909
Or are they two different people.
And if so, when did the Richmond VFL "W Bourke" come to Richmond from Collingwood Trades.

 

[35Daicos]

A further comment regarding William "Bill" "Billy" Bourke.
The Guardian story says he came across to Tigerland when "he followed former Collingwood captain Charlie Pannam to Richmond in 1908".

But our records show that William Bourke played for Richmond VFA in:
1906 on Aug 18 v Nth Melb, Aug 25 v West Melb, Sept 8 vs Preston
1907 on July 27 v Williamstown, Aug 17 v Pt Melb, Sept 7 v Prahran, Sept 21 v West Melbourne (semi final).

Now if the 1906 and 1907 Richmond VFA player is Bourke, then he came to Richmond a year before Pannam did.
Pannam came to Richmond on June 13, 1907 FOOTBALL. - VICTORIAN LEAGUE. - The Argus (Melbourne, Vic. : 1848 - 1957) - 13 Jun 1907

Unless of course now, the 1906 and 1907 Bourke isn't William Bourke who came from Collingwood Trades and went onto Richmond VFL.

Does a permit exist of him coming to Richmond anywhere?

Interestingly, this May 7 1908 permit of a W Bourke getting a permit from Richmond to Preston couldn't be him really could it, cause was playing for Richmond the week earlier (in our first League game), and 2 days later for us in Rd 2 1908 and pretty much rest of the season for us. VICTORIAN FOOTBALL LEAGUE. - The Age (Melbourne, Vic. : 1854 - 1954) - 7 May 1908

So in summary
Is the 1906 and 1907 Richmond VFA also the same William Bourke who would play for Richmond VFL in 1908 and 1909
Or are they two different people.
And if so, when did the Richmond VFL "W Bourke" come to Richmond from Collingwood Trades.

I haven't yet seen a permit, but this does suggest he was a new player for Richmond in 1908:

So does this:


It's strange that he's described as a rover, I'd have thought! There seems to be little doubt that he was a new player that year:


This is Wednesday League Football in 1907:

 

[rbartlett]

I haven't yet seen a permit, but this does suggest he was a new player for Richmond in 1908:
View attachment 1817567
So does this:
View attachment 1817573
View attachment 1817580
It's strange that he's described as a rover, I'd have thought! There seems to be little doubt that he was a new player that year:
View attachment 1817581

This is Wednesday League Football in 1907:
View attachment 1817575

Yeah, I think we are on to something here.
I think the 1908 William Bourke, isnt the 1906-1907 Richmond VFA Bourke.

This also show a 'Burke' and 'Herbert' playing for Collingwood Trade in July 1907
FOOTBALL. - WEDNESDAY MATCHES. NEWS AND NOTES. - The Herald (Melbourne, Vic. : 1861 - 1954) - 30 Jul 1907

and Barney Herbert (Richmond's 20/21 Premiership captain) later wrote in 1936, it was Billy Bourke who was at Richmond in 1908 that convinced him to come to Richmond. Which would make sense if they played together at Collingwood Trades
Sporting Globe (Melbourne, Vic. : 1922 - 1954) - 21 Mar 1936 - p6

Perhaps the W Bourke who was given permit from Richmond to Preston in May 1908 is the 1906 -1907 Bourke.

 

[35Daicos]

Yeah, I think we are on to something here.
I think the 1908 William Bourke, isnt the 1906-1907 Richmond VFA Bourke.

This also show a 'Burke' and 'Herbert' playing for Collingwood Trade in July 1907
FOOTBALL. - WEDNESDAY MATCHES. NEWS AND NOTES. - The Herald (Melbourne, Vic. : 1861 - 1954) - 30 Jul 1907

and Barney Herbert (Richmond's 20/21 Premiership captain) later wrote in 1936, it was Billy Bourke who was at Richmond in 1908 that convinced him to come to Richmond. Which would make sense if they played together at Collingwood Trades
Sporting Globe (Melbourne, Vic. : 1922 - 1954) - 21 Mar 1936 - p6

Perhaps the W Bourke who was given permit from Richmond to Preston in May 1908 is the 1906 -1907 Bourke.

This site has W. Burke playing 14 games for Preston in 1908: The VFA Project
It also has a photo of the player (that's from a 1908 Preston team photo found in Leader):

 

[35Daicos]

This is from the link posted earlier by GreyCrow:

******************
So he may not have made it back to Preston, but it seems certain you had another Bill Bourke at Richmond, and he left for Preston at the same time the new one arrived from Collingwood Trades!!

An F. W. Bourke gets a lot of mentions around that time for pedestrianism/running.

 

[35Daicos]

I just wonder if this is Francis William Bourke (1884-1962), the father of Frank Bourke (Francis Michael Bourke), who was the father of the great Francis Bourke?!

Francis and father Frank were from Nathalia.

 

[GreyCrow]

I just wonder if this is Francis William Bourke (1884-1962), the father of Frank Bourke (Francis Michael Bourke), who was the father of the great Francis Bourke?!
View attachment 1817630
Francis and father Frank were from Nathalia.

Possible

BOURKE Francis Michael Birth
BOURKE, Alice CONWAY
BOURKE, Francis Wm
NUMURKAH



1922
6854/1922

 

[35Daicos]

Barwo is near Nathalia, apparently.


I've seen the athlete called Frank and also Bill/William. I don't know for sure that he was playing for Richmond and then Preston (1908), but it has to be very likely.

 

[rbartlett]

View attachment 1817651
Barwo is near Nathalia, apparently.
View attachment 1817652
View attachment 1817659
I've seen the athlete called Frank and also Bill/William. I don't know for sure that he was playing for Richmond and then Preston (1908), but it has to be very likely.

Atm I think we have two separate stories running here about two different men.

There's nothing atm connecting the W. Bourke who got a permit from Richmond to Preston in 1908, as being the F.W Bourke (Nathalia) in the 1906 running article.

I do believe that the F.W. Bourke however is most likely Francis William Bourke , whose son (Frank), grandson (Francis), and great grandson (David) played for Richmond VFL/AFL.
In an interview with Frank I did in 2001 he said of his father - F.W.Bourke "he was the best of the lot of us. He could jump 6' 3'' high, he won a hurdle event at Stawell in 1909, was a successful farmer, started from nothing."

If F.W.Bourke ends up being the 1906 and 1907 Richond VFA Bourke then that's a big development for Richmond's history, but I don't see any connection of F.W.Bourke, being the W. Bourke who went from Richmond to Preston.
That Bourke is listed as a 'Bill Bourke' and as per above posts looks to have gone to Maffra by April 1909.

Atm, I'm leaning towards the 1906 and 1907 Bourke being Bill Bourke who then got a permit to Preston in 1908, and was also in Maffra in April 1909.

 

[rbartlett]

Atm I think we have two separate stories running here about two different men.

There's nothing atm connecting the W. Bourke who got a permit from Richmond to Preston in 1908, as being the F.W Bourke (Nathalia) in the 1906 running article.

I do believe that the F.W. Bourke however is most likely Francis William Bourke , whose son (Frank), grandson (Francis), and great grandson (David) played for Richmond VFL/AFL.
In an interview with Frank I did in 2001 he said of his father - F.W.Bourke "he was the best of the lot of us. He could jump 6' 3'' high, he won a hurdle event at Stawell in 1909, was a successful farmer, started from nothing."

If F.W.Bourke ends up being the 1906 and 1907 Richond VFA Bourke then that's a big development for Richmond's history, but I don't see any connection of F.W.Bourke, being the W. Bourke who went from Richmond to Preston.
That Bourke is listed as a 'Bill Bourke' and as per above posts looks to have gone to Maffra by April 1909.

Atm, I'm leaning towards the 1906 and 1907 Bourke being Bill Bourke who then got a permit to Preston in 1908, and was also in Maffra in April 1909.

Btw The Herald lineup lists Richmond 1906 and 1907 Bourke in the following positions:
1906 on Aug 18 v Nth Melb, (back pocket) Aug 25 v West Melb (back pocket) , Sept 8 vs Preston (back pocket, listed at Burke)
1907 on July 27 v Williamstown (wing), Aug 17 v Pt Melb (centre), Sept 7 v Prahran (wing) , Sept 21 v West Melbourne (semi final). (back pocket)

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

I think we have two separate stories running here about two different men.

Atm, I'm leaning towards the 1906 and 1907 Bourke being Bill Bourke who then got a permit to Preston in 1908, and was also in Maffra in April 1909.

Agree re two different players - from a no goals defender to leading goal kicker two years in a row is a big change, in addition to the articles suggesting 1908 player was new to the team.

I suspect the 1906-07 player was William Michael Bourke, born at Carlton in 1883 to Daniel Bourke and Fanny Ievers (birth record is under surname Burke)
There are a few references on Trove to W. M. Bourke as a sprinter in 1906-07.
He lived in Carlton/Fitzroy area until family moved to become graziers at Llowalong (near Maffra) around 1908 from what I can tell from electoral rolls - and W. M. Bourke lived there from 1909 until his death in March 1958

 

[rbartlett]

Agree re two different players - from a no goals defender to leading goal kicker two years in a row is a big change, in addition to the articles suggesting 1908 player was new to the team.

I suspect the 1906-07 player was William Michael Bourke, born at Carlton in 1883 to Daniel Bourke and Fanny Ievers (birth record is under surname Burke)
There are a few references on Trove to W. M. Bourke as a sprinter in 1906-07.
He lived in Carlton/Fitzroy area until family moved to become graziers at Llowalong (near Maffra) around 1908 from what I can tell from electoral rolls - and W. M. Bourke lived there from 1909 until his death in March 1958

To me that feels like a better match than what we currently have.
So I'm going to make a change on Tigerland archive and make the VFA William Bourke 1906 - 1907 - William Michael Bourke.

The only change required for the Richmond 1908-09 William Bourke is to remove any reference to his 1906-1907 Richmond VFA Connection.
Oliver G you'll need to make the change on your site Australian Football - Bill Bourke - Player Bio

 

[rbartlett]

When RFC was formed in 1885 it occurred at John Patrick Byrne's "Royal Hotel" across the road from the ground.
I was trying to find when he died and came across same name as dying on July 2, 1900 aged 48 at his residence at 'the Spread Eagle Hotel'. Family Notices - The Argus (Melbourne, Vic. : 1848 - 1957) - 5 Jul 1900

I'm pretty confident they are the same person right? I'm missing:
a) the date/or month when Byrne became licensee of the Royal Hotel

b) the date or month Byrne relinquished licensee of the Royal Hotel.
(It certainly was known as Walsh's Royal Hotel by Sept 2 1886)
RICHMOND CRICKET CLUB. - The Argus (Melbourne, Vic. : 1848 - 1957) - 2 Sep 1886
(I wonder if it was at the end of 1885 - as this talks about new licensees and list M Walsh, Royal Hotel, Hoddle-St which has to be the Royal Hotel on Punt Road isnt it. )

c) the link that shows JP Byrne taking over the licence of the Spread Eagle before his death. Though I've just realised he may not have been licensee at the Spread Eagle, he may just been residing there as a tenant.

 

[the croucher]

<snip>

c) the link that shows JP Byrne taking over the licence of the Spread Eagle before his death. Though I've just realised he may not have been licensee at the Spread Eagle, he may just been residing there as a tenant.

Rhett, I don't think Byrne was licensee at the Spread Eagle.
This 1896 court report a few paragraphs down column identifies Mary Allan/Allen as licensee

POLICE NEWS. - Satubday, September 12, Before Mr Keogh, P.M., Dr. Branson, and Messrs Lee and Belssel, J’s.P. VAGRANT AH CHOW. - Richmond Guardian (Vic. : 1884 - 1887; 1894 - 1897; 1900 - 1936) - 19 Sep 1896

An intelligent-looking Chinaman, who gave his name as Ah Chow, appeared on remand charged with vagrancy, and also having been found by night wearing ...

trove.nla.gov.au

and this 1914 article indicates she was in that position for forty years or more

MRS. M. ALLAN RETIRES AFTER RORTY YEARS AT THE SPREAD EAGLE HOTEL. - Richmond Guardian (Vic. : 1884 - 1887; 1894 - 1897; 1900 - 1936) - 17 Jan 1914

After being the licensee of the Spread Eagle Hotel, Bridge-road, for over forty years, Mrs. M. Allan has retired from business. Few hotels ...

trove.nla.gov.au

 

[35Daicos]

When RFC was formed in 1885 it occurred at John Patrick Byrne's "Royal Hotel" across the road from the ground.
I was trying to find when he died and came across same name as dying on July 2, 1900 aged 48 at his residence at 'the Spread Eagle Hotel'. Family Notices - The Argus (Melbourne, Vic. : 1848 - 1957) - 5 Jul 1900

I'm pretty confident they are the same person right? I'm missing:
a) the date/or month when Byrne became licensee of the Royal Hotel

b) the date or month Byrne relinquished licensee of the Royal Hotel.
(It certainly was known as Walsh's Royal Hotel by Sept 2 1886)
RICHMOND CRICKET CLUB. - The Argus (Melbourne, Vic. : 1848 - 1957) - 2 Sep 1886
(I wonder if it was at the end of 1885 - as this talks about new licensees and list M Walsh, Royal Hotel, Hoddle-St which has to be the Royal Hotel on Punt Road isnt it. )

c) the link that shows JP Byrne taking over the licence of the Spread Eagle before his death. Though I've just realised he may not have been licensee at the Spread Eagle, he may just been residing there as a tenant.

I presume that's meant to be the same one, going on what you have added to your post.

 

[rbartlett]

Rhett, I don't think Byrne was licensee at the Spread Eagle.
This 1896 court report a few paragraphs down column identifies Mary Allan/Allen as licensee

POLICE NEWS. - Satubday, September 12, Before Mr Keogh, P.M., Dr. Branson, and Messrs Lee and Belssel, J’s.P. VAGRANT AH CHOW. - Richmond Guardian (Vic. : 1884 - 1887; 1894 - 1897; 1900 - 1936) - 19 Sep 1896

An intelligent-looking Chinaman, who gave his name as Ah Chow, appeared on remand charged with vagrancy, and also having been found by night wearing ...

trove.nla.gov.au

and this 1914 article indicates she was in that position for forty years or more

MRS. M. ALLAN RETIRES AFTER RORTY YEARS AT THE SPREAD EAGLE HOTEL. - Richmond Guardian (Vic. : 1884 - 1887; 1894 - 1897; 1900 - 1936) - 17 Jan 1914

After being the licensee of the Spread Eagle Hotel, Bridge-road, for over forty years, Mrs. M. Allan has retired from business. Few hotels ...

trove.nla.gov.au

Ah that makes sense - he was merely living at the Hotel , as a tenant or something similar.
Thank you for that.

 

[rbartlett]

View attachment 1829822
View attachment 1829828
View attachment 1829827
I presume that's meant to be the same one, going on what you have added to your post.

Yeah that seems to be. I cant find any other Royal Hotel on that same street. Thanks for finding when he got it in Dec 1883

And looks like he transferred it around same date in 1885.
, and

 

[35Daicos]

Yeah that seems to be. I cant find any other Royal Hotel on that same street. Thanks for finding when he got it in Dec 1883

And looks like he transferred it around same date in 1885.
View attachment 1829834, and

It's fair to say he and his family had a reasonable connection with Melbourne hotels! His mother died at the Argus Hotel (1865), a son was born at the Spread Eagle (1879), his father died at the Duke of Wellington (1881), another son died at the George Hotel (1886), and his wife also died there (1888).

 

[rbartlett]

It's fair to say he and his family had a reasonable connection with Melbourne hotels! His mother died at the Argus Hotel (1865), a son was born at the Spread Eagle (1879), his father died at the Duke of Wellington (1881), another son died at the George Hotel (1886), and his wife also died there (1888).

Appreciate that information Daics. Lovely stuff.
And we can go one further - his son Joseph was born at the Royal Hotel in 1884 as well, and BDM says that he died in 1886 aged 3 - so hes probably the one who died at the George Hotel.

 

[35Daicos]

Appreciate that information Daics. Lovely stuff.
And we can go one further - his son Joseph was born at the Royal Hotel in 1884 as well, and BDM says that he died in 1886 aged 3 - so hes probably the one who died at the George Hotel. View attachment 1829848

Yes, that was this poor bugger:

 

[Oliver G]

To me that feels like a better match than what we currently have.
So I'm going to make a change on Tigerland archive and make the VFA William Bourke 1906 - 1907 - William Michael Bourke.

The only change required for the Richmond 1908-09 William Bourke is to remove any reference to his 1906-1907 Richmond VFA Connection.
Oliver G you'll need to make the change on your site Australian Football - Bill Bourke - Player Bio

Thanks Rhett and to all those who dug up the the records, his page has been updated.

 

[rbartlett]

Im doing a deeeeeeeeep dive into Richmond's first season 1885.
And I'm left pondering several questions that seem to not be important, but help fill in small gaps in Richmond's history.

First query-
John Kingston "King" Mitchell was a committee member in our first year 1885...but what was his occupation.

At his death in 1939 it said he was predeceased by Annie Mitchell.


A Trove search in 1884 has an Annie Mitchell working at the Botanical Reserve fruit and refreshment shop in 1885
DARING ROBBERY UNDER ARMS. - The Riverine Herald (Echuca, Vic. : Moama, NSW : 1869 - 1954; 1998 - 2002) - 31 Mar 1884 and at the end of the article it says her husband works as a bootmaker at Thomson's factory, Rokeby-street, Collingwood. Could that possible be Kingston "King" John Mitchell.?


This seems to be his marriage in 1876 to Annie - which would correlate to the Annie Mitchell mention in 1884.
Am I missing something or would that seem to be them.. and hence as per article he was a bootmaker.


I assume there is no electoral roll in the late 1800s that exist for this sort of information ?

Rhett

 

[35Daicos]

Im doing a deeeeeeeeep dive into Richmond's first season 1885.
And I'm left pondering several questions that seem to not be important, but help fill in small gaps in Richmond's history.

First query-
John Kingston "King" Mitchell was a committee member in our first year 1885...but what was his occupation.

At his death in 1939 it said he was predeceased by Annie Mitchell.
View attachment 1832720

A Trove search in 1884 has an Annie Mitchell working at the Botanical Reserve fruit and refreshment shop in 1885
DARING ROBBERY UNDER ARMS. - The Riverine Herald (Echuca, Vic. : Moama, NSW : 1869 - 1954; 1998 - 2002) - 31 Mar 1884 and at the end of the article it says her husband works as a bootmaker at Thomson's factory, Rokeby-street, Collingwood. Could that possible be Kingston "King" John Mitchell.?
View attachment 1832734

This seems to be his marriage in 1876 to Annie - which would correlate to the Annie Mitchell mention in 1884.
Am I missing something or would that seem to be them.. and hence as per article he was a bootmaker.

View attachment 1832735
I assume there is no electoral roll in the late 1800s that exist for this sort of information ?

Rhett

I'm sure that will be him. He had a son Charles:

If this is correct then his mother ran the shop his wife worked at (I'm not convinced that it is, after reading another article about the robbery):

King Mitchell wrote a letter to the editor in 1935 when he was c. 85, and some people mentioned him in the letters (to the editor) they wrote.

This is probably him:

 

[35Daicos]

Pennings Vol. 2 has this (for 1885):

I see from an 1888 team photo he was head trainer that year.