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Resource List thread - Inaccuracy in official records

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rbartlett said:
Just for the record.
Of those players who played in Richmond's first ever game on May 2 1885 - we surprisingly know very little about just over half of them (those in bold)
(ie the minimum = a first name, dob or dod ). It's worth noting , although we dont have all their details, we do actually have headshots of almost all of them from a photocopy 1885 image that survives in our archives - meaning if we ever need to compare an image say found on ancestry or something, we can.

UNKNOWN PLAYERS
Adams - it was his only game
John "Jack" Conlon - from Cremorne. 15 games. Sometimes paper typo spelt Coulson but I'm certain it is Conlon
Batters - it was his only game. From South Yarra. ATHLETIC SPORTS. - FOOTBALL GOSSIP. |. Batters could be a typo for Battis.
Soutar - it was his only game. From 'Juniors'. Possible typo?
James Mullaly . 1885-86. From Park Hill (Richmond), and then Richmond Juniors
J "Pik" Paddy Purcell. 1885-86
Thomas "Tom" Graham . 1885-86, 1890-91. Sth Melbourne 1883-1884. Went to Port Melbourne 1887. Came back from Port Melb to Richmond in 1890. Spent 3 months in prison for assault in 1893. Victim later died. Inquest determined it was not due to the injuries he sustained but from typhoid fever. But Graham's death date unknown atm
Charlie Stephens 1885-1890. From Richmond Juniors. Went to Lilydale. Still alive as of early September 1912.
Watkins. - it was his only game. May also be known as just Watkin.
Richard "Dick" Owen - 1885-87. Still alive as of early September 1912
T Smart. it was his only game. Is first initial T . From Juniors.

UNKNOWN COMMITTEE (I do have individual headshot photos of each should we need to compare imargery)
J. Hall.
H Jones.
A Davis.
All three men above only served on committee for the one year 1885.
(Im assuming as they are on the initial committee of the RFC, they have a connection to the Richmond area either as a business, or through the cricket club)

FOUND
Fred Wookey b: 1862 d: 24 Nov 1929. No further action
Harry Layton d: 1915, had 10 children. No further action
William "Billy" Wells b: 1855 Richmond d: 11 June 1942. No further action
Christopher Rees Syle b: 1863, Richmond. d: 24 Dec 1934. No further action.
George Smith - b: 1854 d: May 31 1905. No further action
John "Jack" James "Bosco" Stewart. b: 1861 d: 2 Sept 1940. No further action
Alf Hill b: 1861, Richmond. D: 1 March 1957. No further action
George Howarth b: 1864 d: Aug 8 1943. No further action
William Rushton. 8 games in 1885. From Richmond Standard. Could be the 70 year old who died 1929, or the 47 year old who died in 1904. Edit: He's the 1929 death. His father died in 1912 and family was quite noted in Richmond area. OBITUARY. - Rushton. - Richmond Guardian (Vic. : 1884 - 1885; 1894 - 1897; 1900 - 1930) - 2 Oct 1897. No further action.
Francis Joseph Crohan. b: 1854 Conneticut. d: 28 April 1921. No further action
Alf Searle b: 1866, Richmond d: 22 May 1916. No further action
Joseph Shand b: 1864. d: 17 april 1935. No further action
Click to expand...
This might be James Mullaly/Mullally, the spelling of the surname changes between his birth and death:


1699185332046.png


1699185233578.png
 
Bill Shenfield (South Freo, Fitzroy) has DOB 25 April 1910 in every footy source I have checked (and his WWII enlistment)
However, his gravestone has 1909 as year of birth and searching WA BDM shows his year of birth was indeed 1909.

Given the WWII record I suspect he may have been the source of the error - but correct DOB is 25 April 1909.
 

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Email from Stephen Rodgers
regarding Lew Evans 1949.

TLDR:
Would you say, on all the evidence, it HAS to be him, and we can put in that date-of-death of 4 - 7 - 1993?

Email (slightly edited)
So, we've always had the full name as,
Llewellyn Page Evans
born 14 - 10 - 1927

And, lo and behold, if you look up Ryerson,
there is a Llewellyn Page Evans.

Immediately you'd think, unless it's one of those father/son cases with exactly the same name, that has to be a massive chance that it's him.

So - as you'll see on Ryerson - he is late of Rochedale,
formerly of Melbourne (again a pointer that it's him)
being in the Brisbane Courier Mail of
July 6 and 7, 1993.

And with him dying on the
Fourth of July, in 1993.

Unfortunately no age is given, in the column for the age.

However, as you'd be aware, for Queensland (and I think NSW also), you can check the death records online, for Deaths over 30 years ago (working back from today's date).

(Luckily this just makes it, for our purposes, now being, with him, 30 years and a few months.)

So, in terms of that, the screenshot below manifested itself. As you can see, that reference (not having an exact date) gave the date-of-birth as 1928 -
which is awfully close to 14 - 10 - 27.

Again you say to yourself,
it has to be him!!

What I find so puzzling is that both we, and you (meaning you collectively -
I know the Big Footy guys have looked at this sort of thing in detail, from time to time, and forwarded, in specific cases, the findings to us; as recently as 2021, page 38 of the thread, on December 12th, there's a list of Hawthorn's potentially oldest living past players, with Lew Evans specifically on it!!)

so, how can it be that both we and you (collectively) have both "missed this" for the best part of 30 years, it seems -
if it's been in Ryerson!!
Screenshot_20231220-121212_Chrome.jpg
 
rbartlett said:
Email from Stephen Rodgers
regarding Lew Evans 1949.

TLDR:
Would you say, on all the evidence, it HAS to be him, and we can put in that date-of-death of 4 - 7 - 1993?

Email (slightly edited)
So, we've always had the full name as,
Llewellyn Page Evans
born 14 - 10 - 1927

And, lo and behold, if you look up Ryerson,
there is a Llewellyn Page Evans.

Immediately you'd think, unless it's one of those father/son cases with exactly the same name, that has to be a massive chance that it's him.

So - as you'll see on Ryerson - he is late of Rochedale,
formerly of Melbourne (again a pointer that it's him)
being in the Brisbane Courier Mail of
July 6 and 7, 1993.

And with him dying on the
Fourth of July, in 1993.

Unfortunately no age is given, in the column for the age.

However, as you'd be aware, for Queensland (and I think NSW also), you can check the death records online, for Deaths over 30 years ago (working back from today's date).

(Luckily this just makes it, for our purposes, now being, with him, 30 years and a few months.)

So, in terms of that, the screenshot below manifested itself. As you can see, that reference (not having an exact date) gave the date-of-birth as 1928 -
which is awfully close to 14 - 10 - 27.

Again you say to yourself,
it has to be him!!

What I find so puzzling is that both we, and you (meaning you collectively -
I know the Big Footy guys have looked at this sort of thing in detail, from time to time, and forwarded, in specific cases, the findings to us; as recently as 2021, page 38 of the thread, on December 12th, there's a list of Hawthorn's potentially oldest living past players, with Lew Evans specifically on it!!)

so, how can it be that both we and you (collectively) have both "missed this" for the best part of 30 years, it seems -
if it's been in Ryerson!!
View attachment 1875613
Click to expand...
I think there's a very good chance that none of the regulars on here actually looked for a DOD for Lew Evans, so there probably wasn't much chance any of us was going to find one! I certainly didn't look! From what I can see, the only time he gets mentioned in that thread is on the list of Hawthorn players Steve refers to, but it doesn't look like he is brought up any other time, and his name can't have been on the list of those we were given to try and find answers for.

I did look into Lew Evans a year or so back, but for other reasons. Collingwood had an L. Evans play a few seconds games in 1945, and I was trying to identify him. Eventually I worked out that it was the 1949 Hawthorn senior player who had played for Collingwood several years earlier:
1703161206138.png
1703164847300.png

It does appear certain that they have the right chap dying in 1993. Llewellyn Page Evans lived at Hawthorn (with his parents) in 1949:
1703165506155.png
He was still there in 1954. He was living (with his wife and daughter) at Mansfield (Queensland) in 1980, and that's quite close to Rochedale, where he was living when he died.
 
While on the subject of Evans's...
Roy Evans (Yarraville, Footscray) has DOB 10 November 1913 in football sources

However, Vic BDM has his birth registered in 1910:
1703286655623.png

Roy Henry Evans is the right person - married in early 1936 to Emma Cutting as per this article
1703286796958.png

I can't see anything to confirm exact date but likely it is just an incorrect year and actual DOB should be 10 November 1910
 
WhiteHartLane23 said:
While on the subject of Evans's...
Roy Evans (Yarraville, Footscray) has DOB 10 November 1913 in football sources

However, Vic BDM has his birth registered in 1910:
View attachment 1877019

Roy Henry Evans is the right person - married in early 1936 to Emma Cutting as per this article
View attachment 1877022

I can't see anything to confirm exact date but likely it is just an incorrect year and actual DOB should be 10 November 1910
Click to expand...
Most of the trees on Ancestry just have 1910, and none have an exact date:
1703331129307.png
1703331207240.png
George Alfred Evans was his brother, and if it's correct that he was born 12 July 1913 (his Army records have that) that would certainly mean Roy Henry Evans wouldn't have been born in November of that year!
 
Wikipedia currently lists Winston Abraham as the 1996 Goal of the Year winner. (it doesn't have any citation of where that info comes from)
Screenshot 2023-12-26 at 7.01.31 pm.png

But I posted footage today that shows Jeff Farmer being awarded the honour, on Ch7's post Grand Final broadcast.


I think this would require the
Goal of the Year page to be changed Goal of the Year (AFL) - Wikipedia
Jeff Farmer's wiki to be changed Jeff Farmer (footballer) - Wikipedia
Winston Abraham's wiki to be changed Winston Abraham - Wikipedia

Any objections?
 
Last edited:
rbartlett said:
Wikipedia currently lists Winston Abraham as the 1996 Goal of the Year winner. (it doesn't have any citation of where that info comes from)
View attachment 1878412

But I posted footage today that shows Jeff Farmer being awarded the honour, on Ch7's post Grand Final broadcast.


I think this would require the
Goal of the Year page to be changed Goal of the Year (AFL) - Wikipedia
Jeff Farmer's wiki to be changed Jeff Farmer (footballer) - Wikipedia
Winston Abraham's wiki to be changed Winston Abraham - Wikipedia

Any objections?
Click to expand...

The AFL have Winston Abraham on their website - see Goal of the Year Nominees - AFL.com.au
Seems possible the Channel 7 award was a different one to the "official" AFL one?
 
WhiteHartLane23 said:
The AFL have Winston Abraham on their website - see Goal of the Year Nominees - AFL.com.au
Seems possible the Channel 7 award was a different one to the "official" AFL one?
Click to expand...
I know from 2001 they did weekly nominations.
But wasn't all the years before that just what was announced on Ch7 when they did their 5 nominations and you would call the 0055 numbers
(like this 1992 promo -
 
WhiteHartLane23 said:
The AFL have Winston Abraham on their website - see Goal of the Year Nominees - AFL.com.au
Seems possible the Channel 7 award was a different one to the "official" AFL one?
Click to expand...
rbartlett said:
I know from 2001 they did weekly nominations.
But wasn't all the years before that just what was announced on Ch7 when they did their 5 nominations and you would call the 0055 numbers
(like this 1992 promo -
Click to expand...

Yes, the AFL Season Guide only shows the winners from 2001 onwards (same with Mark of the Year). The Wiki page has Malcolm Blight (North Melbourne) for 1982, while the AFL page has Mick Conlan (Fitzroy), and in 1999 Wiki has Ben Cousins (West Coast), but the AFL page has Jarrod Molloy (Brisbane). All the others from 1976-2000 are matching.

This is on the Wiki page (Jones is named as the winner for that year):
1703582711180.png
I wouldn't have thought goals kicked in finals would count. It has this on another page:
1703582801072.png
So I think that list on Wikipedia may be pretty doubtful! I'm not sure about the AFL site list either!
 
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rbartlett said:
Wikipedia currently lists Winston Abraham as the 1996 Goal of the Year winner. (it doesn't have any citation of where that info comes from)
View attachment 1878412

But I posted footage today that shows Jeff Farmer being awarded the honour, on Ch7's post Grand Final broadcast.


I think this would require the
Goal of the Year page to be changed Goal of the Year (AFL) - Wikipedia
Jeff Farmer's wiki to be changed Jeff Farmer (footballer) - Wikipedia
Winston Abraham's wiki to be changed Winston Abraham - Wikipedia

Any objections?
Click to expand...

Yes, Rhett. Don't think you could get any clearer evidence than that.

I suspect (given long-standing links between Channel 7 & The Sun) that the news of the award would have been published early in the next week.
 
rbartlett said:
Wikipedia currently lists Winston Abraham as the 1996 Goal of the Year winner. (it doesn't have any citation of where that info comes from)
View attachment 1878412

But I posted footage today that shows Jeff Farmer being awarded the honour, on Ch7's post Grand Final broadcast.


I think this would require the
Goal of the Year page to be changed Goal of the Year (AFL) - Wikipedia
Jeff Farmer's wiki to be changed Jeff Farmer (footballer) - Wikipedia
Winston Abraham's wiki to be changed Winston Abraham - Wikipedia

Any objections?
Click to expand...


It is a great pity that the State Library of Victoria website "upgraded" one aspect of the the digital records collections a few years ago - for some reason the upgrade "lost us" the ability to search across multiple issues for a keyword or phrase.

I bet we could have solved this "Goal of the Year" question by now if the old system had still existed, or at least confirmed that the official AFL award didn't begin until 2001.
 
I got a message from Stephen Rodgers.

Long story short:
Rodgers believes the current date of birth fo footballer Charles Coles may be wrong.
....
......

There seems to be 2 Charles Coles with similar details.
COLES Charles (no middle name)
born 1879 at Geelong (No. 16548)
to parents
Frances Coles
and
Mary nee Payne

He died
COLES Charles (no middle name)
in 1948 at Geelong (No. 20753)
aged 69
billiongraves.com

Charles Coles - BillionGraves GPS Headstones

Record for Charles Coles 21 Jul 1879 - 6 Sep 1948 in Australia, Victoria, Greater Geelong City, Geelong from BillionGraves GPS Headstones.
billiongraves.com billiongraves.com


And there's the Geelong footballer Charles Coles
currently born July 21 1879, and died August 20 1942 aged 63.
en.wikipedia.org

Charles Coles (footballer) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
Screen Shot 2023-12-27 at 10.24.00 am.png

The footballer's death date is correct. https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/11991618
But, the footballer's parents are Charles Fourdrinier William Coles and Eleanor nee Clarke

which is different to the 1879 Charles Coles whose parents are Francis Coles and Mary nee Payne

Rodgers cant fid any other Charles Coles DOB in BDM around the 1879 year that would be the footballer.
So he is unsure what the footballers date of birth is. (He believes the current July 21 1879 birthdate on wiki was perhaps from the birth certificate he ordered decades ago thinking that had to be the footballer, but it turns out it was the other Charles Coles who died in 1948.)
 
rbartlett said:
I got a message from Stephen Rodgers.

Long story short:
Rodgers believes the current date of birth fo footballer Charles Coles may be wrong.
....
......

There seems to be 2 Charles Coles with similar details.
COLES Charles (no middle name)
born 1879 at Geelong (No. 16548)
to parents
Frances Coles
and
Mary nee Payne

He died
COLES Charles (no middle name)
in 1948 at Geelong (No. 20753)
aged 69
billiongraves.com

Charles Coles - BillionGraves GPS Headstones

Record for Charles Coles 21 Jul 1879 - 6 Sep 1948 in Australia, Victoria, Greater Geelong City, Geelong from BillionGraves GPS Headstones.
billiongraves.com billiongraves.com


And there's the Geelong footballer Charles Coles
currently born July 21 1879, and died August 20 1942 aged 63.
en.wikipedia.org

Charles Coles (footballer) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
View attachment 1878560

The footballer's death date is correct. DEATH AFTER BLOW - The Argus (Melbourne, Vic. : 1848 - 1957) - 21 Aug 1942
But, the footballer's parents are Charles Fourdrinier William Coles and Eleanor nee Clarke

which is different to the 1879 Charles Coles whose parents are Francis Coles and Mary nee Payne

Rodgers cant fid any other Charles Coles DOB in BDM around the 1879 year that would be the footballer.
So he is unsure what the footballers date of birth is. (He believes the current July 21 1879 birthdate on wiki was perhaps from the birth certificate he ordered decades ago thinking that had to be the footballer, but it turns out it was the other Charles Coles who died in 1948.)
Click to expand...
This should be the person he's looking for:
1703633984183.png
1703634254504.png
1703635200516.png
I can't "vouch for" that DOB, but the fact they have that and a baptism date makes it look pretty promising.
1703634776731.png
This says he was 63, which adds up nicely:
1703635819969.png
 
Last edited:

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rbartlett said:
Thank you .
I have sent him that information Daics.
Hopefully the ancestry and the baptism info is as correct as we will get. Thank you
Click to expand...
Charlie Coles didn't have a lot of luck with the way his career ended! He badly broke his leg in what turned out to be his last game, against Collingwood in June 1904 (he was only 25 at the time). Then this happened!!:
1703645575386.png
****
1703645383015.png
 
Last edited:
Stephen Rogers agrees with the Coles birth details.
Therefore our wiki person on here will need to change the below please.
en.wikipedia.org

Charles Coles (footballer) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org

to reflect DOB of 26 Dec 1878

*Paul* will need to change Charles Coles date of birth as well, which means he is 18 on debut not 17,

(Rodgers later found a corresponding birth certificate, No. 2935)
 
Email from Stephen Rodgers I'm passing along listing a few outstanding missing player deaths they are still trying to find.

Mal Worrall (Hawthorn)
with the full name as
Malcolm Murray Worrall
(you might recall, we changed the date-of-birth from 10 - 10 - 25, to now be 10 - 12 - 25.)
The feeling is that he died in Queensland sometime around 2010 to 2012.


- Norm Dean (North Melbourne)
This is such a frustrating one; we shouldn't have this issue!
As you're aware, Norm and Ken Dean were the sons of Fred Dean, that is,
Frederick Thomas Dean, the earlier North Melbourne player.
Norm is Norman Frederick Dean.
Even though North, thru Barry Cheatley of the past players, have contact with Ken,
apparently Ken had a really bad falling-out with his brother, and won't tell us any info about Norm's death!
(We also haven't been able to get the info, when Ken's wife answered the phone.)
Norm's death was in New South Wales or Queensland sometime around 2005, we believe.


- Terry Walsh (North Melbourne)
I've never had a full name for him.
He played in 1947-48, as we can see by the records.
The belief is that he committed suicide, presumably in Victoria or New South Wales, at a still very young age, around 23, in or about 1950?


- Ray Hutchins (Melbourne)
The player of 1950-51, I have the full name as
Raymond Ferris Hutchins (not sure where that's from)

You might recall, Melbourne put this up for him (the screenshot below), in, apparently, February 2021,
but there's still no death for him on the Demonwiki site, it seems.

Frustratingly nothing at all seems to be showing up on Ryerson.
 
Last edited:
Les Crowley's death date has been found by Stephen Rodgers.
In an email to me today he writes:

I have him as
Leslie Norman William (known as Mick)
Crawley

and I can see he's on Ryerson.
As Leslie Norman (Mick)
With a date-of-death as 17 - 7 - 2018.
And a spot-on age given as 91.

Our wiki person will need to update

Les Crawley - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
 

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Resource List thread - Inaccuracy in official records

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