Resource List thread - Inaccuracy in official records

Remove this Banner Ad

GreyCrow

TheBrownDog
Mar 21, 2016
69,656
108,027
Down South Corvus Tristis
AFL Club
Adelaide
Other Teams
Sturt, White Sox
Thanks gentleman for this.
I'm already aware of previous incarnations of a Richmond Football Club. There are 5.
They are all documented on my tigerlandarchive.org site at the bottom.

As for 1884 foundation year for this current club, I may have to hope that one day we find the minute books from 1885 / or Annual Report to shed light.
Certainly in 1910 it was already being peddled that Richmond were founded in 1884. On reflection it could be simply based off a recollection of James Charles, the first secretary, who was still alive at that time, and perhaps confused his memory by a year.

Cheers
Rhett
I think this is a valid argument. It could also be when asked he may have also said, given the timeline , that discussions were started at the end of the 84 season and formalized in 85
 

Harry Hook

Team Captain
Sep 30, 2016
375
118
AFL Club
North Melbourne
Thanks gentleman for this.
I'm already aware of previous incarnations of a Richmond Football Club. There are 5.
They are all documented on my tigerlandarchive.org site at the bottom.

As for 1884 foundation year for this current club, I may have to hope that one day we find the minute books from 1885 / or Annual Report to shed light.
Certainly in 1910 it was already being peddled that Richmond were founded in 1884. On reflection it could be simply based off a recollection of James Charles, the first secretary, who was still alive at that time, and perhaps confused his memory by a year.

Cheers
Rhett
This gets murkier and murkier. I'm on my phone but there is a picture from Tabletalk ( the newspaper) of 9 March 1911 at page 15 which shows a picture of the then present secretary of Richmond a Mr AA Manzie, who apparently took office in 1906 and Mr James Charles who was stated to be the First secretary of Richmond and it nominates Mr Charles years of service as 1884 to 1888.

Sorry can't get the photo across on the phone.

There is also talk of getting a senior club in at Richmond in 1883 with the office bearers having been elected including Mr Charles referred to in the Argus of 3 February 1883 at page 5.
 

Harry Hook

Team Captain
Sep 30, 2016
375
118
AFL Club
North Melbourne
Also Charles was apparently am ex player and pioneer of Hotham , cf North Melbourne Advertiser 25 June 1886 at page 4.
 

Log in to remove this ad.

Harry Hook

Team Captain
Sep 30, 2016
375
118
AFL Club
North Melbourne
More evidence that the 1883 Richmond club was more than a concept with reference to Mr Charles being reported to have started a club in 1883 and was trying to arrange games, cf the North Melbourne Advertiser 23 March 1883 at page 2. They seem to have taken an interest in him because he was ex Hotham.
 

GreyCrow

TheBrownDog
Mar 21, 2016
69,656
108,027
Down South Corvus Tristis
AFL Club
Adelaide
Other Teams
Sturt, White Sox
This gets murkier and murkier. I'm on my phone but there is a picture from Tabletalk ( the newspaper) of 9 March 1911 at page 15 which shows a picture of the then present secretary of Richmond a Mr AA Manzie, who apparently took office in 1906 and Mr James Charles who was stated to be the First secretary of Richmond and it nominates Mr Charles years of service as 1884 to 1888.

Sorry can't get the photo across on the phone.

There is also talk of getting a senior club in at Richmond in 1883 with the office bearers having been elected including Mr Charles referred to in the Argus of 3 February 1883 at page 5.
Link to page

Even deeper from 1934 'Jubilee year' Club founded in 1884 by J Charles' Yet the story also contains the information that Charles was given the 1st Members badge presented in 1885

--

This goes to my above where J Charles and co looked to form Richmond in 1884 but did not formally do so until 1885. A little from A a little from B
 

Harry Hook

Team Captain
Sep 30, 2016
375
118
AFL Club
North Melbourne
I'm beginning to wonder whether James Charles actually did form Richmond in 1884 not 1885.

Firstly the semantic facts. Nowhere in the 1885 Richmond reports is there a meeting which set up office holders, secretaries etc. James Charles was a stickler for this stuff as Rhett has pointed out. Indeed, the February and March 1885 reports presuppose a committee and office holders in place.

The meetings were largely to encourage membership.

Secondly Charles got given the first Richmond life membership in 1885 presumably for his efforts to get a football club in place.

Now I also have discovered what could be the smoking gun.

I'm still on my phone so can't put the Trove reference on bigfooty.

But in the 14 February 1885 edition of the Australasian at page 21 there is a report about various cricket clubs and their scores. However go to page 22 and there is a reference to Richmond cricket club which reads " the committee of Richmond are endeavouring to form s football team in conjunction with the cricket club, and to judge from the ready response in the matter of promises to play which were handed in at the preliminary meeting on Wednesday evening, the undertaking will be a pronounced success. It is intended to play as a senior, and in all probability the orange and black will be represented in the football field during the coming season". That is a blueprint for Richmond FC evolving from the cricket club.

Subsequently on 20 February a public meeting was held, at which time the treasurer, committee and secretary were ALREADY in place.

On Thursday 5 March 1885, the committee ( already in place) elected to have colours of all blue with yellow and black sash ( Australasian 7 March 1885 page 23) and on 28 March, they were elected into the VFA.

Richmond cricket club were created in 1854.

Maybe the answers lie in the minute books of the Richmond cricket club and maybe we have done old James Charles a huge disservice.

It also explains possibly why there are no press reports in 1884.
 

rbartlett

Club Legend
Jan 5, 2004
1,494
1,748
Melbourne
AFL Club
Richmond
Other Teams
Richmond

rbartlett

Club Legend
Jan 5, 2004
1,494
1,748
Melbourne
AFL Club
Richmond
Other Teams
Richmond
I'm beginning to wonder whether James Charles actually did form Richmond in 1884 not 1885.

Firstly the semantic facts. Nowhere in the 1885 Richmond reports is there a meeting which set up office holders, secretaries etc. James Charles was a stickler for this stuff as Rhett has pointed out. Indeed, the February and March 1885 reports presuppose a committee and office holders in place.

The meetings were largely to encourage membership.

Secondly Charles got given the first Richmond life membership in 1885 presumably for his efforts to get a football club in place.

Now I also have discovered what could be the smoking gun.

I'm still on my phone so can't put the Trove reference on bigfooty.

But in the 14 February 1885 edition of the Australasian at page 21 there is a report about various cricket clubs and their scores. However go to page 22 and there is a reference to Richmond cricket club which reads " the committee of Richmond are endeavouring to form s football team in conjunction with the cricket club, and to judge from the ready response in the matter of promises to play which were handed in at the preliminary meeting on Wednesday evening, the undertaking will be a pronounced success. It is intended to play as a senior, and in all probability the orange and black will be represented in the football field during the coming season". That is a blueprint for Richmond FC evolving from the cricket club.

Subsequently on 20 February a public meeting was held, at which time the treasurer, committee and secretary were ALREADY in place.

On Thursday 5 March 1885, the committee ( already in place) elected to have colours of all blue with yellow and black sash ( Australasian 7 March 1885 page 23) and on 28 March, they were elected into the VFA.

Richmond cricket club were created in 1854.

Maybe the answers lie in the minute books of the Richmond cricket club and maybe we have done old James Charles a huge disservice.

It also explains possibly why there are no press reports in 1884.


Here's the timeline of Richmond in 1885 that we have researched already. The RCC Minute Book on Feb 4 specifically hints at moves to form a football club. So its possible A) Charles discussed creating a footy club in late 1884 but it came to fruition in 1885, or B) It was always 1885 , and that his memory is off by a year when recalling it around the 1910s. But thanks for all your help. I don't wish to hijack this thread . But if you come across anything that says RFC was formed in 1884 (prior to say 1910 publications/press) just drop me a DM. Cheers
https://tigerlandarchive.org/tiki-index.php?page=1885+Chronology
 

Gibbsy

Moderator
Oct 12, 2009
23,294
26,922
AFL Club
Collingwood
Other Teams
Manchester City, Victory, Cavs

Harry Hook

Team Captain
Sep 30, 2016
375
118
AFL Club
North Melbourne
Here's the timeline of Richmond in 1885 that we have researched already. The RCC Minute Book on Feb 4 specifically hints at moves to form a football club. So its possible A) Charles discussed creating a footy club in late 1884 but it came to fruition in 1885, or B) It was always 1885 , and that his memory is off by a year when recalling it around the 1910s. But thanks for all your help. I don't wish to hijack this thread . But if you come across anything that says RFC was formed in 1884 (prior to say 1910 publications/press) just drop me a DM. Cheers
https://tigerlandarchive.org/tiki-index.php?page=1885+Chronology
I did notice that in 2014 Richmond had to change their constitution to delete the references to the Richmond cricket club so the thread in thought was there early.
 

rbartlett

Club Legend
Jan 5, 2004
1,494
1,748
Melbourne
AFL Club
Richmond
Other Teams
Richmond
Found this in May 1908 describing Richmond's first VFL match (keep in mind they have played in VFA year before)
"it was clear the Richmond found difficulty in forgetting the Association practice of not kicking the ball in the ruck, and were to some extent handicapped by it"
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-page351604

Does that read to you like it was a rule which differentiated the League from the Association.
 

Harry Hook

Team Captain
Sep 30, 2016
375
118
AFL Club
North Melbourne
Found this in May 1908 describing Richmond's first VFL match (keep in mind they have played in VFA year before)
"it was clear the Richmond found difficulty in forgetting the Association practice of not kicking the ball in the ruck, and were to some extent handicapped by it"
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-page351604

Does that read to you like it was a rule which differentiated the League from the Association.

Cf Argus 20 April 1908 page 8.

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article10678446

There was a difference.

Cf Bendigo Advertiser 15 June 1907

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article89729922

Notice the element of risk referred to.

Consideration in VFL to abolishing the ruck

Argus 27 August 1910 page 17

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article10455893

Rule re kick in the ruck being abolished adopted in lower league

cf Maryborough and dunolly Advertiser 19 May 1915 page 3

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article93800929


Still in league rules 1915

Advertiser p2, 21 August 1915

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article89114524


In 1921 some reappraisal,

cf the Argus page 5, 23 May 1921

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article1759170


Age page 5 21 August 1936 suggests that it is still the rule
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article204902786

So the answer would seem to be there was a difference in 1909 in the rules.
 

rbartlett

Club Legend
Jan 5, 2004
1,494
1,748
Melbourne
AFL Club
Richmond
Other Teams
Richmond
I couldn't find a thread where one can post History questions to ask for assistance (is there actually one ?), so I'll post here:

Mick Warner - a Sturt wingman, came to Richmond and trained in 1945 (http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/969045).
I'm trying to find any information about him. My knowledge of Sturt is minimal. I'm looking for any info, but primarily I'm trying to find his WW2 service record -so I can add him to my list of Richmond players (all levels) who went to War.
https://tigerlandarchive.org/tiki-index.php?page=War

Jack Cahill (noted SANFL identity) contacted me to say his father - John Vincent Cahill played/trained with Richmond circa 1942/3-44.
(for clarity I will call one Jack, and the other John).
We know that Laurie Cahill played for Richmond (Jack Cahill's uncle), but I didn't know that John Cahill played. Problem is I'm struggling to find any reference of him at Richmond (either training/seconds)
If anyone comes across any information please advise. I am currently searching the club minute books.

Any help would be appreciated.
 
Last edited:

(Log in to remove this ad.)

GreyCrow

TheBrownDog
Mar 21, 2016
69,656
108,027
Down South Corvus Tristis
AFL Club
Adelaide
Other Teams
Sturt, White Sox
I couldn't find a thread where one can post History questions to ask for assistance (is there actually one ?), so I'll post here:

Mick Warner - a Sturt wingman, came to Richmond and trained in 1945 (http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/969045).
I'm trying to find any information about him. My knowledge of Sturt is minimal. I'm looking for any info, but primarily I'm trying to find his WW2 service record -so I can add him to my list of Richmond players (all levels) who went to War.
https://tigerlandarchive.org/tiki-index.php?page=War

Jack Cahill (noted SANFL identity) contacted me to say his father - John Vincent Cahill played/trained with Richmond circa 1942/3-44.
(for clarity I will call one Jack, and the other John).
We know that Laurie Cahill played for Richmond (Jack Cahill's uncle), but I didn't know that John Cahill played. Problem is I'm struggling to find any reference of him at Richmond (either training/seconds)
If anyone comes across any information please advise. I am currently searching the club minute books.

Any help would be appreciated.
Just had a quick look at the Sturt site and cant see any mention. There is a speedway driver of that name.
 

35Daicos

Premium Platinum
Mar 6, 2011
8,676
11,343
Adelaide
AFL Club
Collingwood
Other Teams
Collingwood (VFL), Man Utd.
I couldn't find a thread where one can post History questions to ask for assistance (is there actually one ?), so I'll post here:

Mick Warner - a Sturt wingman, came to Richmond and trained in 1945 (http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/969045).
I'm trying to find any information about him. My knowledge of Sturt is minimal. I'm looking for any info, but primarily I'm trying to find his WW2 service record -so I can add him to my list of Richmond players (all levels) who went to War.
https://tigerlandarchive.org/tiki-index.php?page=War

If anyone comes across any information please advise. I am currently searching the club minute books.

Any help would be appreciated.
There's a Warne (named on the wing) for Sturt in this game in 1945:- http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/55860488

Perhaps it's meant to be him. This has H F Warne (debuting Rd. 2 1945) 460 WARNE H F 5/5/1945 2:- http://www.sturtfc.com.au/history/the-players
 

GreyCrow

TheBrownDog
Mar 21, 2016
69,656
108,027
Down South Corvus Tristis
AFL Club
Adelaide
Other Teams
Sturt, White Sox

GreyCrow

TheBrownDog
Mar 21, 2016
69,656
108,027
Down South Corvus Tristis
AFL Club
Adelaide
Other Teams
Sturt, White Sox
HF Warne looks to have gone to Perth then NSW
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article47662741

This might help clear the confusion

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article95767349

Harold (Mick) Warne, who has
been home oh leave, returned this
week to rejoin his unit.

Service Record for a Harold Frederick Warne

http://www.ww2roll.gov.au/Veteran.aspx?serviceId=R&veteranId=925774


Name WARNE, HAROLD FREDERICK
Service Royal Australian Air Force
Service Number 80461
Date of Birth 13 Dec 1922
Place of Birth FREMANTLE, WA
Date of Enlistment 5 May 1942
Locality on Enlistment NORSEMAN
Place of Enlistment PERTH, WA
Next of Kin WARNE, JEAN
Date of Discharge 11 Sep 1947
Rank Leading Aircraftman
Posting at Discharge Station HQ Pearce
 

Harry Hook

Team Captain
Sep 30, 2016
375
118
AFL Club
North Melbourne
There's a Warne (named on the wing) for Sturt in this game in 1945:- http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/55860488

Perhaps it's meant to be him. This has H F Warne (debuting Rd. 2 1945) 460 WARNE H F 5/5/1945 2:- http://www.sturtfc.com.au/history/the-players
Don't think his name is Mick, if indeed it is Warner, or even that his christian name begins with M.I reckon when the press reported it they took as gospel from the player his name was Mick when it probably was the name he used.
Looked at the AWM enlistments for the RAAF in the Second World War and there were a number of Warners from SA.
Also important is the age factor. Soldiers training in 1945 ( and not before) would suggest a boy just turning age of enlistment or an older player who enlisted as a replacement later in the War.
 

Harry Hook

Team Captain
Sep 30, 2016
375
118
AFL Club
North Melbourne
I couldn't find a thread where one can post History questions to ask for assistance (is there actually one ?), so I'll post here:

Mick Warner - a Sturt wingman, came to Richmond and trained in 1945 (http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/969045).
I'm trying to find any information about him. My knowledge of Sturt is minimal. I'm looking for any info, but primarily I'm trying to find his WW2 service record -so I can add him to my list of Richmond players (all levels) who went to War.
https://tigerlandarchive.org/tiki-index.php?page=War

Jack Cahill (noted SANFL identity) contacted me to say his father - John Vincent Cahill played/trained with Richmond circa 1942/3-44.
(for clarity I will call one Jack, and the other John).
We know that Laurie Cahill played for Richmond (Jack Cahill's uncle), but I didn't know that John Cahill played. Problem is I'm struggling to find any reference of him at Richmond (either training/seconds)
If anyone comes across any information please advise. I am currently searching the club minute books.

Any help would be appreciated.
Australasian as at 13 May 1944 has an article listing Richmond enlistees at that time

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article142418829

Laurie Cahill is listed as serving with the RAAF.

Cf also the News of Adelaide 14 April 1944.

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article128397273

Can't find a reference to JV Cahill the footballer which is strange because if JV was noted in any way he would appear by reference to his brother.
 

35Daicos

Premium Platinum
Mar 6, 2011
8,676
11,343
Adelaide
AFL Club
Collingwood
Other Teams
Collingwood (VFL), Man Utd.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/11350869 (6 July 1944)

LEAGUE PERMITS
Subject to appearance before opposing delegate:
To Richmond: J. G. Cahill (West Glenelg, SA)

Perhaps this chap was yet another of the Cahill clan, most likely he was. This was posted elsewhere a few years back:- http://www.talkingfootysa.com/t323p30-spell-check-s-sanfl-stats-random-facts-questions-answered

Darrell Cahill Port
Donald J. Cahill West
John A. Cahill West
John G. Cahill West
Laurie Cahill South
Rodney Cahill Glenelg
John V. Cahill Jnr Port
John V. Cahill Snr South
 
Last edited:

rbartlett

Club Legend
Jan 5, 2004
1,494
1,748
Melbourne
AFL Club
Richmond
Other Teams
Richmond
Thanks so much for you help everyone. (Harry, Grey, 35Daics)
Good news is I have found a further reference to J Cahill, brother of Laurie Cahill. This is the man we are after
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article11350383

And it I reckon the John G Cahill quoted in the earlier post/article (by 35Daics) is John V Cahill (just with G and V wrong).
 

WhiteHartLane23

Team Captain
Jul 26, 2014
449
479
AFL Club
Hawthorn
Other Teams
Tottenham Hotspur
Charlie Young (Melb) is recorded in all sources I can find as being born 7 December 1877 and dying on 31 March 1949.

A quick search on Ancestry gives:
NAME: Charles Herbert Lockyer Young
BIRTH: 7 Dec 1877 - Kew, Victoria, Australia

In early 1905 he is recorded as moving to Adelaide (http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article165440464)

...and on 22 Feb 1914 Charles Herbert Lockyer Young is recorded as dying at Glenelg (http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article204660440)

On 31 Mar 1949 Charles Herbert Young died at Five Dock in Sydney, NSW - this person was born on 17 Sep 1877 in NSW.

I think the current record has been based on a mis-identification of the death record (understandable given similar dates of birth)
 

GreyCrow

TheBrownDog
Mar 21, 2016
69,656
108,027
Down South Corvus Tristis
AFL Club
Adelaide
Other Teams
Sturt, White Sox
Charlie Young (Melb) is recorded in all sources I can find as being born 7 December 1877 and dying on 31 March 1949.

A quick search on Ancestry gives:
NAME: Charles Herbert Lockyer Young
BIRTH: 7 Dec 1877 - Kew, Victoria, Australia

In early 1905 he is recorded as moving to Adelaide (http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article165440464)

...and on 22 Feb 1914 Charles Herbert Lockyer Young is recorded as dying at Glenelg (http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article204660440)

On 31 Mar 1949 Charles Herbert Young died at Five Dock in Sydney, NSW - this person was born on 17 Sep 1877 in NSW.

I think the current record has been based on a mis-identification of the death record (understandable given similar dates of birth)
I would agree that the CHL Young at North Brighton is the one born and reg 3503 Vic year 1878

Married Elsie May Stubbs 1907 in Norwood SA and ( as far as I can see ) produced no children

There is a photo available ( but not till next week) at this site ask for grave number 512 at North Brighton Cemetery
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~deadsearch/cemetery_index.htm

Or I could make an effort and see if I can pass by on the way home from work in the morning.
 

35Daicos

Premium Platinum
Mar 6, 2011
8,676
11,343
Adelaide
AFL Club
Collingwood
Other Teams
Collingwood (VFL), Man Utd.
.
Thanks so much for you help everyone. (Harry, Grey, 35Daics)
Good news is I have found a further reference to J Cahill, brother of Laurie Cahill. This is the man we are after
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article11350383

And it I reckon the John G Cahill quoted in the earlier post/article (by 35Daics) is John V Cahill (just with G and V wrong).
I suspect you are right about this (the papers would surely have made some sort of comment if there were two John Cahill's going from SA to Richmond at about the same time!), but it is odd the paper also said he was from West Glenelg (who were combined at the time) rather than Sturt South Adelaide (as John V Cahill snr. was from South).

Edit: http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/206010378 (The Age, July 3 1944)
After the match on Saturday Richmond officials signed up J. G. Cahlll, an inter-State player who has been attached to the West Glenelg (S.A.) club. Cahill is 25, 6 feet tall and weighs 13 stone. He is in Melbourne on service duties with the A.I.F.

http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/206008568 (The Age, July 6 1944) !!!

Subject to appearance before delegates: —
To Richmond.— J. S. Cahill (West Glenelg, S.A.)
 
Last edited:

Remove this Banner Ad