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Resource List thread - Inaccuracy in official records

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Another St Kilda score anomaly.

1898 St Kilda v South Melbourne round 5.

See the attached report of the Prahran Telegraph of 11 June 1898
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article144638963

The PT score accords with the AFL table score except that the score in the third quarter in the PT is 1.3 to 4.15 (9 to 39) in favour of South Melbourne. The AFL tables score for this game for the third quarter is 5.16 (46) to 1.3 (9) in favour of South Melbourne.

The report from the PT has some detail in the report about the scoring in the third quarter.
 
Another scoring anomaly. 1898 St Kilda v Collingwood round 6.

See the attached report from the Prahran Telegraph.
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article144641164

PT has the final score as 5.5 to 9.11 ( in favour of Collingwood). AFL tables list the scores as 5.4 to 10.8. A disparity in the total and the composition of the score.
 

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Harry Hook said:
Also another query re St Kilda. Joe O'grady is listed as having played 9 games for the Saints in 1897. Was his name actually Joe. This report from the Prahran Telegraph suggests it is a nickname.

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article144637001
Click to expand...
At best I would say it was Patrick Joseph based on these 2 reports. 1 is an obituary and the other a match report a week or2 later.

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article138615549 Obituary

From June 10th a week or 2 after the above http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article144602685

Its not 100% but I would be using a dark pencil
 
GreyCrow said:
At best I would say it was Patrick Joseph based on these 2 reports. 1 is an obituary and the other a match report a week or2 later.

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article138615549 Obituary

From June 10th a week or 2 after the above http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article144602685

Its not 100% but I would be using a dark pencil
Click to expand...
Since you're so good at this I have another for you.

Look at this extract from the Prahran Telegraph of 18 July 1903

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article144683626

It identifies the death of one W Richardson who played for St Kilda in 1900. A Richardson did play in 1900 for St Kilda in 1900 but in the ALF tables he is listed as Archie Richardson who played more than 10 games and no other Richardson played for the Saints in this this time.

The Prahran Telegraph is a goldmine when it comes to investigating early St Kilda.

Late Edit

Archie Richardson was died in 1981 at age 100 but that does not preclude the possibility that one of the 3 games that were played by him were played by another Richardson but were credited to Archie.

And here may be some evidence.

Argus 27 August 1900

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article9553401

refers to A Richardson being a junior who just joined the club which is odd because Archie Richardson is credited with having played games in 1898, 1900 and 1901.
 
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Harry Hook said:
Since you're so good at this I have another for you.

Look at this extract from the Prahran Telegraph of 18 July 1903

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article144683626

It identifies the death of one W Richardson who played for St Kilda in 1900. A Richardson did play in 1900 for St Kilda in 1900 but in the ALF tables he is listed as Archie Richardson who played more than 10 games and no other Richardson played for the Saints in this this time.

The Prahran Telegraph is a goldmine when it comes to investigating early St Kilda.

Late Edit

Archie Richardson was died in 1981 at age 100 but that does not preclude the possibility that one of the 3 games that were played by him were played by another Richardson but were credited to Archie.

And here may be some evidence.

Argus 27 August 1900

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article9553401

refers to A Richardson being a junior who just joined the club which is odd because Archie Richardson is credited with having played games in 1898, 1900 and 1901.
Click to expand...
The Age (10 May 1901) match report for the St Kilda vs Essendon game (played Thursday 9 May 1901) says "In the Essendon team the places of Byers, Gavan, Wright and Ward were filled by Stuckey, Cleghorn, O'Loghlen and White (from Preston): and St. Kilda were without Richardson (whose injured ankle forced him to act the part of spectator), Rinder and J. Smith."

All four of those marked in red are named in the official lineup!!!

http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/190042702
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/10549845 (The Argus doesn't mention ins and outs)
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/139160316 (The Australasian just mentions ins for Essendon)

http://afltables.com/afl/stats/games/1901/051519010509.html

The Australasian article does say (referring to the St Kilda player in the Rd. 1 {not the game against Essendon} 1901 game) "Richardson, a very capable follower from the Leopold"

He wasn't meant to be a new player, so why did they bother to mention that he had come from another club?!
 
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Martin is named in the official Essendon lineup for the rd. 3 1901 game against Fitzroy but The Australasian match report twice mentions him as an absentee. Hastings gets named (though not meant to be playing), so he probably took the place of Martin. The Age and The Argus also have Martin as not playing (neither mention Hastings), so should be little doubt about that one.

http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/139160681
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/190036642
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/10550233

http://afltables.com/afl/stats/games/1901/050619010511.html
 
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35Daicos said:
Martin is named in the official Essendon lineup for the rd. 3 1901 game against Fitzroy but The Australasian match report twice mentions him as an absentee. Hastings gets named (though not meant to be playing), so he probably took the place of Martin. The Age and The Argus also have Martin as not playing (neither mention Hastings), so should be little doubt about that one.

http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/139160681
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/190036642
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/10550233

http://afltables.com/afl/stats/games/1901/050619010511.html
Click to expand...

Yes, I think you are correct there. Martin out of team.
The Herald report on evening of match includes the team line-ups but only has 17 names shown
https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=PuY7AAAAIBAJ&sjid=OCsMAAAAIBAJ&pg=1386,27720784

but on the next Friday (17th) has following comment about Essendon's team to visit Geelong
"..Gavin and Martin will be included in the team, and Stuckey and Griffith are unlikely starters.."
see Google page 8 of 8 on far right column under heading Tomorrows Matches [broken type when enlarged so not easy to read]
https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=EVKlETVVbN8C&dat=19010517&printsec=frontpage&hl=en
 
Harry Hook said:
Since you're so good at this I have another for you.

Look at this extract from the Prahran Telegraph of 18 July 1903

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article144683626

It identifies the death of one W Richardson who played for St Kilda in 1900. A Richardson did play in 1900 for St Kilda in 1900 but in the ALF tables he is listed as Archie Richardson who played more than 10 games and no other Richardson played for the Saints in this this time.

The Prahran Telegraph is a goldmine when it comes to investigating early St Kilda.

Late Edit

Archie Richardson was died in 1981 at age 100 but that does not preclude the possibility that one of the 3 games that were played by him were played by another Richardson but were credited to Archie.

And here may be some evidence.

Argus 27 August 1900

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article9553401

refers to A Richardson being a junior who just joined the club which is odd because Archie Richardson is credited with having played games in 1898, 1900 and 1901.
Click to expand...
35Daicos said:
The Australasian article does say (referring to the St Kilda player in the Rd. 1 {not the game against Essendon} 1901 game) "Richardson, a very capable follower from the Leopold"

He wasn't meant to be a new player, so why did they bother to mention that he had come from another club?!
Click to expand...
I think you're spot on, Harry, it seems there had to be a second Richardson play for St Kilda back then. Lots of references can be found that say the A Richardson who played in 1901 was a new recruit from the Leopold club. So who was the Richardson that played for the club in 1898 and 1900? It wouldn't even be a surprise if there were three different players with that last name; one who played in 1898, another in 1900 and yet another who came along in 1901!! Not sure about the first two years, however.

There's a team photo of the 1900 Leopold premiership winning team here (with A. Richardson in it):- http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/139156982

There's another 1900 Leopold team photo here where it's easier to work out who he is!:- http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/198176009

Says The Leader of St Kilda "and amongst new men they have ~~~ and a first class player in Richardson, from the Leopold club."
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/198078594/21478656 (11 May 1901)

The Argus also suggests Richardson was new:- http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/10549282
Plus it mentions he was injured during this game which would make it reasonable that he couldn't play the rd. 2 game on the Thursday (see earlier post).
 
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WhiteHartLane23 said:
He is listed in the Record report for R7 v Fitzroy : http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article108482567
For R10 v St Kilda the team in the Record matches the official record except for Swannie - "Guinane" is named as a follower but I can find no other reference to such a player. (note: the report names Minahan = O'Gorman - see players with assumed names) http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article108482651

The best check I can think of would be the Herald - but 1897 is not in Google archive so would require a trip to SLV
Click to expand...
He even got his permit to move from South Melbourne to St Kilda under the name Michael Minahan!! I guess that would make sense but would like to know what his "story" was!:- http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/202623327
 
Harry Hook said:
Since you're so good at this I have another for you.

Look at this extract from the Prahran Telegraph of 18 July 1903

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article144683626

It identifies the death of one W Richardson who played for St Kilda in 1900. A Richardson did play in 1900 for St Kilda in 1900 but in the ALF tables he is listed as Archie Richardson who played more than 10 games and no other Richardson played for the Saints in this this time.
Click to expand...
Here's a story from the Euroa Advertiser (17 July 1903) that seems to fit the one about the (1900) St Kilda player:- A young man named William R. Richardson, a resident of South Yarra, died at Gooram, on Friday ~~~. Deceased was only 23 years of age, and leaves a wife and one child.

http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/65643112/6471682

Edit: Here's the death notice from The Argus. It might be William K, not William R.:-

RlCHARDSON.—On the 10th July, at Gooram Gong, Wm. K., late of Ralston-street, South Yarra, the beloved husband of Ethel Richardson, and beloved youngest son of Mrs. R. Napton and the late W. G. Richardson, aged 23 years.

http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/9808604
 
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Re Richardson.

This extract from the Australasian of 11 May 1901 seems to suggest he's new and names the other new players
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article139160318

So if he's new which Richardson played in 1898 and 1900.

It's also a useful article as it gives a background to Rinder, Luck and Graeme.

Here are some of the permits.

Age 25 April 1901
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article196061252
.
which is useful as it gives the initials of the players, including Luck and Billy Shaw whose initials actually are WH.

This note from the Sportsman of 9 July 1901 suggests that Richardson was not the only player to go from Leopold that year.

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article228153515

Just a general note. in my experience the early St Kilda names etc are less explored, not because of the quality of historians but because they were, seemingly less reported in detail than some of the more successful teams of the time. So I have a great degree of caution about them.
 
The Leopold team we are talking about is not the present Leopold team but one that was started in 1897 and disbanded in 1923 and was from Leopold in Geelong.

This coincidentally is about when the League starts. I'm assuming a permit would be necessary for any move ( but I remind myself, never assume anything).
 
Harry Hook said:
The Leopold team we are talking about is not the present Leopold team but one that was started in 1897 and disbanded in 1923 and was from Leopold in Geelong.

This coincidentally is about when the League starts. I'm assuming a permit would be necessary for any move ( but I remind myself, never assume anything).
Click to expand...
I've been looking for permits for anyone called Richardson going to St Kilda back in those days, haven't found anything yet!
 
[QUOTE="35Daicos, post: 51015423, member: 116791"
The Australasian article does say (referring to the St Kilda player in the Rd. 1 {not the game against Essendon} 1901 game) "Richardson, a very capable follower from the Leopold"

He wasn't meant to be a new player, so why did they bother to mention that he had come from another club?!"[/QUOTE]

For what it is worth, Richmond had an H. Archie 'Pony' Richardson play for us from 1902- 1904 in the VFA for 49 games 2 goals. A member of our first premiership

Rhett
 
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rbartlett said:
[QUOTE="35Daicos, post: 51015423, member: 116791"
The Australasian article does say (referring to the St Kilda player in the Rd. 1 {not the game against Essendon} 1901 game) "Richardson, a very capable follower from the Leopold"

He wasn't meant to be a new player, so why did they bother to mention that he had come from another club?!"
Click to expand...

For what it is worth, Richmond had an H. Archie 'Pony' Richardson play for us from 1902- 1904 in the VFA for 49 games 2 goals. A member of our first premiership

Rhett[/QUOTE]
Could well be! The Encyclopedia of AFL Footballers has the player who played for St Kilda 1898 and 1900-01 (supposedly) as Henry Archibald Richardson, which would fit nicely.

Incidentally, it also says "From West Beach in the St Kilda Junior League. He went to Leopold in 1899 and returned to St Kilda late in 1900. Later moved to USA, where he served in US forces in both World Wars. He died in 1981 at the age of 101."

I think I neglected to check what that book had to say about him the other day, but it does seem at least some of that story has to be incorrect!

http://www.saints.com.au/news/2011-02-24/oldest-living-player

AFL Statistics chief Col Hutchinson tells us that the longest living Saint of all was Archie Richardson (born 18 July 1879, died 7 March 1981) who was 101.

Like all our old Saints he had an interesting tale. Archie served in the Australian army in World War I and was in the US army in World War II.

Henry Archibald Richardson US Draft Cards (and other stuff):- https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Richardson-6050
 
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rbartlett said:
[QUOTE="35Daicos, post: 51015423, member: 116791"
The Australasian article does say (referring to the St Kilda player in the Rd. 1 {not the game against Essendon} 1901 game) "Richardson, a very capable follower from the Leopold"

He wasn't meant to be a new player, so why did they bother to mention that he had come from another club?!"
Click to expand...

For what it is worth, Richmond had an H. Archie 'Pony' Richardson play for us from 1902- 1904 in the VFA for 49 games 2 goals. A member of our first premiership

Rhett[/QUOTE]
You can compare the Leopold 1900 (then St Kilda) A. Richardson with the one at Richmond in 1903 (Punch 6 Aug.) in these photos. I'm not too sure, but maybe not the same person. Opinions, anyone!:-
http://www.boylesfootballphotos.net.au/Richmond+Team+Photos
http://www.boylesfootballphotos.net.au/Richmond+Team+Photos
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/198176009
 

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Richardson 1900 for st Kilda ( I will not call him Archie) was a new recruit, see the report of the Age 17 August 1900 for the St Kilda Collingwood game

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article190050312

while the Argus of 27 August 1900 calls Richardson the junior who just joined St Kilda

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article190050312

Here is the kicker ( so to speak).

AFL tables lists Archibald's 3 games for 1900 as being in rounds 15 and 16 being the Collingwood and Melbourne game and Round 3 v Geelong which is quirkily listed as being in August 1900 ( either it was in May as round 3 or in August as round 14, 15 etc

So when did he play in 1900 for St Kilda and for Leopold.

As for 1898, the Record lists a Richardson as playing for in the South Melbourne but gives no details.
 
Harry Hook said:
Richardson 1900 for st Kilda ( I will not call him Archie) was a new recruit, see the report of the Age 17 August 1900 for the St Kilda Collingwood game

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article190050312

while the Argus of 27 August 1900 calls Richardson the junior who just joined St Kilda

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article190050312

Here is the kicker ( so to speak).

AFL tables lists Archibald's 3 games for 1900 as being in rounds 15 and 16 being the Collingwood and Melbourne game and Round 3 v Geelong which is quirkily listed as being in August 1900 ( either it was in May as round 3 or in August as round 14, 15 etc

So when did he play in 1900 for St Kilda and for Leopold.

As for 1898, the Record lists a Richardson as playing for in the South Melbourne but gives no details.
Click to expand...
It seems pretty likely the Richardson who played in 1900 was a new player - apparently Will(iam), who died in 1903. Unless it was the same player from two years earlier and they didn't realise it. I do hope that article in the Prahran Telegraph about the ex-Saint dying was correct.

The 1901 player must have been Archie, most likely the fellow who ended up in America. As for the 1898 player, no real idea, but could well have been a third Richardson!

Round 3 of 1900 was postponed due to heavy rain and played after round 14 (but still called round 3)!
 
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35Daicos said:
It seems pretty likely the Richardson who played in 1900 was a new player - apparently Will(iam), who died in 1903. Unless it was the same player from two years earlier and they didn't realise it. I do hope that article in the Prahran Telegraph about the ex-Saint dying was correct.

The 1901 player must have been Archie, most likely the fellow who ended up in America. As for the 1898 player, no real idea, but could well have been a third Richardson!

Round 3 of 1900 was postponed due to heavy rain and played after round 14 (but still called round 3)!
Click to expand...
I have a working theory, which I am careful not to be hidebound about which is that HA Archibald played for St Kilda in 1901 then switched to Richmond. Another Richardson, possibly W Richardson ( who died young so essentially his footballing background was forgotten) played in 1900 and possibly in the junior competitions afterwards. As to the 1898, Richardson, I can't add anything save to say that the Record in a South Melbourne game names him ( and the Record is one of the better recorded sources). Who he was I can't advance bur he probably wasn't the 1900 Richardson as otherwise the Prahran Telegraph report would have said that.

Again it is only a working theory and I don't want to fall into the trap of trying to prove that particular premise as it is only a guide.

Why did W Richardson get lost is easier to imagine. At best he played possibly 3 games in 1900, dies in 1903. St Kilda's records of all the VFL clubs are the worst ( hence why I try to avoid the exercise at times) as they lost so many games, a lot of times team line ups weren't recorded, names were wrong and data flimsier than other VFL team. He also died young, so his memory was lost and the club records would only show a Richardson played and given H A Richardson's age, it is reasonable to assume he started as a junior and then played peripherally until 1901.

There is just comparatively speaking less hard data about early Saints players. Eventually someone has to actually forensically go through the process.
 
Harry Hook said:
I have a working theory, which I am careful not to be hidebound about which is that HA Archibald played for St Kilda in 1901 then switched to Richmond. Another Richardson, possibly W Richardson ( who died young so essentially his footballing background was forgotten) played in 1900 and possibly in the junior competitions afterwards. As to the 1898, Richardson, I can't add anything save to say that the Record in a South Melbourne game names him ( and the Record is one of the better recorded sources). Who he was I can't advance bur he probably wasn't the 1900 Richardson as otherwise the Prahran Telegraph report would have said that.

Again it is only a working theory and I don't want to fall into the trap of trying to prove that particular premise as it is only a guide.

Why did W Richardson get lost is easier to imagine. At best he played possibly 3 games in 1900, dies in 1903. St Kilda's records of all the VFL clubs are the worst ( hence why I try to avoid the exercise at times) as they lost so many games, a lot of times team line ups weren't recorded, names were wrong and data flimsier than other VFL team. He also died young, so his memory was lost and the club records would only show a Richardson played and given H A Richardson's age, it is reasonable to assume he started as a junior and then played peripherally until 1901.

There is just comparatively speaking less hard data about early Saints players. Eventually someone has to actually forensically go through the process.
Click to expand...
Finding out more about the player from 1898 would certainly help.

The team photos showing A. Richardson at Leopold (who went to St Kilda) and A. Richardson at Richmond (link in post #719) should help form an opinion as to whether or not they are likely to be the same person. I'm still not sure.
 
35Daicos said:
Finding out more about the player from 1898 would certainly help.

The team photos showing A. Richardson at Leopold (who went to St Kilda) and A. Richardson at Richmond (link in post #719) should help form an opinion as to whether or not they are likely to be the same person. I'm still not sure.
Click to expand...

My two cents worth- I reckon they are the same player in the photo
 

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Resource List thread - Inaccuracy in official records

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