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Resource List thread - Inaccuracy in official records

Discussion in 'Footy History' started by Supermercado, Mar 9, 2015.

Put it out there
  1. Harry Hook

    Harry Hook Senior List

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    I think I've the skeleton of Casey's family tree ( from Casey's time at least).

    Richard \Dick Casey marries Mary Catherine Goodwin

    cf notice in the Age in 1940 recording Mrs Casey's death at age 55, which suggests she was born in 1885

    http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article204421281

    This notice refers to her brother Thomas and her sister Alice O'Laughlin.

    This notice also records that she had 8 children

    Mary (said to be one Mrs McPerson, another notice credits Agnes to be Mrs McPerson but that variation is of little import)
    Alice who marries the son of Billy Gent, W Gent, and has 4 children and dies in 1945 ( Record 2 June 1945 )
    James Thomas who is made executor of his mother's will and whose name is recorded as James Thomas Casey). He is also active in Labour Party politics.
    Agnes
    Catherine
    Josephine
    Eileen
    Teresa

    Now the oddities.

    If you look at the death notice of Dick Casey set out a post or two above, daughters Eileen and Teresa are not mentioned. This may be because she was pregnant at the time. She may have remarried although there is nothing to suggest this. I cannot supply the answer.

    A mother with 6 kids and 2 on the way may indeed be the subject of some support as it is recorded the VFL and other organisations provided. She may also have then, as it may be the case from the address in Dick's death notice have moved under the wing of the greater Casey family at Moray Street in South Melbourne as a result of the untimely death of her husband due to influenza.

    The death notice for Dick Casey records no siblings of Dick which is strange.

    Besides being a tragic story ( probably no less tragic than any other from the flu at that time, this offers us some clues as to how to get Dick's details of date of birth and parentage, if it is possible, being:

    (a) Birth certificates of the respective children will record particulars of the father. There are 8 children so there should be ample evidence there.

    (b) Family trees, to the extent any have been done;

    (c) Probate details in relation to the death of Mrs Casey;

    (d) Post office directories\electoral roll searches of the individual and his family and of those living at 126 Moray Street.

    Now I found this intriguing, possibly incorrect or irrelevant post,on geneological forum in relation to the Casy family, which I reproduce below in its entirety:

    "Hello From NZ

    My Great Granny had a half brother Richard Baxter Casey born in Cork
    Ireland. I have recently traced him to Australia where he married Mary
    Elizabeth Chaplin--( Born Cork--) in 1873.
    They had 6 children that I know of

    Edward Chaplin Casey 1874 Beechworth

    Henrietta Casey 1875 Worhouly

    Ada Mary Casey 1878 Whorhouly

    Leslie Walter Casey

    Richard Baxter Casey 1885 Melbourne

    Frederick George Casey 1888 Richmond"

    For those interested Worhouly is in the Wangaratta area.

    What interested me was in the Ancestry searches ( such as I could do them on Casey and 126 Moray Street South Melbourne. the first 2 entries were the gravestone of Leslie Walter Casey 1883 -1949 and the death certificate ( which I could not read as I do not have access to Ancestry) of one Lesley Walter Casey 1882 -1949) which would appear to be the same person and those two references, could match the above post which I've set out.

    Incidentally that search also comes up with electoral roll searches of Mary Catherine Casey in about 1927 and James Thomas Joseph Casey.

    The answer to Dick Casey's date of birth is likely not found in his football career. That tells you only that he played for South Melbourne and before that Brunswick ( and first appears , it is assumed, for Brunswick in 1899).

    Even if he started at 17 in 1899, that would suggest a birthdate of 1882.
     

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  2. Harry Hook

    Harry Hook Senior List

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    Folks I've been doing some freelancing and came across this article:

    8 April 1937

    Argus

    http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article11055032

    which reports about the death of Alexander F Jones who played football with the St Kilda football club earlier in his life.

    Being 50 would give him a birthdate of 1887.

    Interesting part is that I could not find a reference for Alex Jones and acoording to wikipedia's list of St Kilda players, there have been 12 players named Jones of whom the only one that would appear to fit in the date range would be Lewis Jones who played 1 game in 1904 against Carlton at the age of 17.

    Wikipedia puts him as dying in 1960 but have they got the right bloke.

    AF Jones apparently played football for Bendigo as well.

    Can't find much on the Jones who played in that Carlton game.
     
  3. Harry Hook

    Harry Hook Senior List

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    Tom Wenborn (SM 1900s) is listed as having a full name Thomas Wenborn in Australian Football.

    This article of the Record of 25 March 1944 in relation to his death suggests his name was Tracey Edgar Wenborn.

    http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article164982940
     
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  4. Harry Hook

    Harry Hook Senior List

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    Last edited: Jul 20, 2017 at 2:32 AM
  5. the croucher

    the croucher Team Captain

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    Good pick up Harry !
    Yes, that was his name - birth and death records at Vic BDMs confirming T E,
    born to parents Charles Francis and May Selina (nee Wilson).
     
  6. WhiteHartLane23

    WhiteHartLane23 Debutant

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    Unfortunately australianfootball.com has loads of inaccuracies in their "full names" - they seem to assume all Jim's are James, Tom's are Thomas etc.
    Examples I've updated on Wikipedia recently are Jim Park and Algy Hay...

    The values they display are clearly not all based on research of the individual players concerned - I've got about 1000 full names from Trove/BDM records in my database and I reckon less than half are the same as what australianfootball.com display... *btw, happy to share data I have with anyone who asks!
     
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  7. rbartlett

    rbartlett Team Captain

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    Thank you.
    I've always had the Warren in our VFA as 'Walter Warren', based on this 1940 article which says he came from Williamstown. http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article141822275
    In our records all I can see if a Warren playing in 1889 for 3 games (4/5, 24/5, 25/5). Certainly not across many years as article you posted. So at the moment, I have only one Warren, and that would be 'Walter' or 'J', possibly from Wiliamstown, who died around 1944/1945 (I'll have to check the Minute Book and see the entry).

    As a side note, the article I just posted says that Richmond also had 'Winks' a New Zealand Rugby player. We don't have a Winks in our records ... yet
     
  8. rbartlett

    rbartlett Team Captain

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  9. the croucher

    the croucher Team Captain

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    An article previewing prospects for the season ahead appears in April 1889
    http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/page/23314717

    See the Richmond paragraph near the bottom of column 6....
    refers to efforts being made to induce Wicks to play, but I so far cannot find any ref to him being actually named in a match report or team list.
     
  10. WhiteHartLane23

    WhiteHartLane23 Debutant

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    George McLeod (St K & Ess) has DOB 22 Apr 1879 & DOD 3 Mar 1959 in all sources I have checked.
    These dates are for George Angus McLeod - born in Echuca; died Wellington, WA and who seems to have moved to WA about 1900...

    Searching on Trove it seems the footballer was actually George Alfred McLeod from Colac
    Born 13 Sep 1871 in Camperdown
    Playing for South Yarra as early as 1893 http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article163667071
    Travelled to play for St Kilda from Colac: http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article87642316
    Later played in Tasmania and then for Essendon
    Served as Lieut-Colonel in World War I at age 44
    Died 27 Jun 1921 (http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article1770494) - although his tombstone says 24/6
     
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  11. Harry Hook

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    Just a query. In relation to the various investigations, should the results be sent on to the AFL, if they are relatively uncontentious, such as with Mr Pye.

    I'm not fussed who does it but if we're relatively confident of a change, someone should.
     

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  12. the croucher

    the croucher Team Captain

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    I'll send the details to Stephen Rodgers in the morning.
     
  13. WhiteHartLane23

    WhiteHartLane23 Debutant

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    Actually on reflection, it seems odd that he would play for Essendon from 1910-1913 at age 38 so I did a little more digging. I think the Essendon player was a different person.
    This permit record http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article10854073 indicates he was G. N. McLeod

    EDIT: Actually there are several articles indicating he was G. A. McLeod e.g. http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article85618049 - but still suspect he was a different player to the St Kilda player
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2017 at 8:06 AM
  14. rbartlett

    rbartlett Team Captain

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    This is probably irrelevant to you but I'll throw it out there.
    Richmond had a George McLeod play from 1888-1889 (who then tried out for Fitzroy in 1890 http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article227926269)
     
  15. 35Daicos

    35Daicos Premiership Player

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    Last edited: Jul 21, 2017 at 3:37 PM
  16. 35Daicos

    35Daicos Premiership Player

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    http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/144683626 (18 July 1903)
    "The rivals in this case were McLeod, the Western District sprinter, who is playing well for St. Kilda this year"

    http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/144684163 (13 June 1903)
    "The Saints were without the services of Powell and Markillie, and played B. Sandford and McLeod, a follower from Colac."

    McLeod debuted in 1897 and also played a handful of games in 1901 and 1902 so it's a bit strange that the writer seems to suggest he was a new player in 1903.
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2017 at 5:27 PM
  17. rbartlett

    rbartlett Team Captain

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    Been liaising with Stephen Rodgers.
    He is going to send me *in the snail mail* that missing Date of Births/ Date of Deaths the AFL require.
    He is just going through the list again, but did say there is around 100.
    Once I receive that I will make you guys aware of it ( I may just scan it and upload (I'll need help with how to do that), or I may just type out the names one by one. I'll know more when I receive the document )
     
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  18. Oliver Gigacz

    Oliver Gigacz Premium Platinum

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    Apologies for being late, but the Phil/George Gibson has now been fixed on AustralianFootball.
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2017 at 1:57 AM
  19. WhiteHartLane23

    WhiteHartLane23 Debutant

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    Have looked further into George McLeod

    Early records (possibly not related to VFL player but some sources list South Yarra link)
    In 1893, G. McLeod is a rover for South Yarra http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article163664763
    In 1894, a George McLeod is described as a new player for St Kilda from South Yarra http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article227708961 and a “McLeod” plays http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article165211619
    In 1895 a George McLeod is a rover for Yackandandah http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article144947039 (possibly relevant given link below)

    St Kilda
    1897 On VFL debut for St Kilda: “McLeod showed an intimate knowledge of all the tricky points of football - and a disposition to talk from bounce to bell” http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article9189538
    In 1901 and 1902 “McLeod” plays a few games – not noted as a new player.
    1903 seems to be all the "new" player from Colac (9 games)

    Tasmania
    George McLeod first appears in Tasmania in 1904 http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article80111196
    Originally played for Mechanics in Lyell District Football League
    Reported in 1905 http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article80223061
    In 1908 played for and captained Railways http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article84518591
    Represented Tasmania at 1908 Carnival http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article84523006

    Essendon
    Moved to Essendon prior to 1910 season – http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article10060678
    Noted as having played for St Kilda “for about a season” but then “departed for the island state”
    Permit issues http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article84553144 - originally from Yea? (possibly related to Yackandandah ref above)
    Permit granted http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article10854073
    Plays for Essendon 1910-1913

    Few conclusions:
    1) It seems highly likely there were two players (first one 1897-1902; 1910-1913 & second one 1903)
    2) The first George Martin has a long career (possibly starting as early as 1893)
    3) the current DOB/DOD seem incorrect – the George McLeod they relate to moved to WA around the turn of the century and was married in Perth in 1910
     
  20. Harry Hook

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    A player named McLeod played for South Fremantle in 1907 in 16 games. In my notes/ records he is listed as having the initials GA.
     
  21. 35Daicos

    35Daicos Premiership Player

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    G. A. McLeod went from Worsley to South Fremantle in 1907:- http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/25703846

    You can see G. McLeod in a 1907 team photo here:- http://cdm16702.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/ref/collection/myfirst/id/1480

    Perhaps this is the "other" GA McLeod mentioned (up the page a bit) as moving from Victoria to WA.
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2017 at 10:38 PM
  22. the croucher

    the croucher Team Captain

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    Indeed, how many mistakes are there in the original records ? Far more than originally thought, I imagine.

    Jimmy Gaynor is listed as playing 1 game for Carlton in 1904. At present a number of sites show his birthdate as 17 May 1877.
    A James Gaynor is listed on the Vic BDMs site as being born in 1877 and registered in the Carlton district (no. 13868).
    Parents were Thomas and Bridget (nee Sheehy).

    The Argus issue of 28 Dec 1900 includes a death notice for James Francis Gaynor 16 November 1900 in Ireland,
    son of Thomas and Bridget Gaynor, aged 23 years 6 months. Such lifespan info indicates a birth in May 1877.
    http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/a...-01-01|||dateTo=1900-12-31|||l-state=Victoria

    Practically certain that this person needs to be added to the list of those having unknown birth or death dates.
     
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  23. Harry Hook

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    There are so many which is why I randomly check.

    Anyway that is an aside.

    Is there any permit history on Gaynor.

    Croucher, can you run some searches for me on Casey on the matters raised above.

    I'm sure that we can crack it if we can go the genoleogical route.
     
  24. Harry Hook

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