Resource List thread - Inaccuracy in official records

[35Daicos]

The reason I quote the report is that it gives us some biographical data on the player.

My query is with the DOD and DOB.

If he was 35 at the time of the issue in 1898, then he was born in 1863\4 not 1872.

Also given he was a publican in 1898, that would mean that if the 1872 DOB is correct or the 1871 DOB is correct, then he is 26 or 27 at the time he was a publican, which may be on the younger side. Is 35 more believable. Possibly.

He was Daniel C. Collins, had played for St Kilda in 1892 and served in the Boer War according to The Encyclopedia of AFL Footballers. He also was a Richmond (VFA) player.

He had previously been a member of the police force according to newspaper articles.

 

[Harry Hook]

Collins it appears played for the saints as early as 1892 ( and possibly before that ) hence why he was called the noted St kilda footballer.

 

[35Daicos]

Collins it appears played for the saints as early as 1892 ( and possibly before that ) hence why he was called the noted St kilda footballer.

There's a Daniel Charles Collins who enlisted in 1888. His date of birth was said to be 22 Aug 1867:- https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/Sea...ports/ItemDetail.aspx?Barcode=30107445&isAv=N

As has been pointed out, some records say 22 Aug 1872 for the footballer's DoB so it is very likely to be him. The Encyclopedia also says he "came from Garrison Artillery, Queenscliff".

This appears to be the record of his birth from Vic BDM. It's from 1872, but the parents names match those on his army record, and the Place of birth PENS should be Penshurst (I think it says that on the army papers):-

Record information
Event Birth
Event registration number 25335
Registration year 1872

Personal information
Family name COLLINS
Given names Daniel Charles
Sex Unknown
Father's name Joseph Robert
Mother's name Caroline (Duffy)
Place of birth PENS

 

[Harry Hook]

There's a Daniel Charles Collins who enlisted in 1888. His date of birth was said to be 22 Aug 1867:- https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/Sea...ports/ItemDetail.aspx?Barcode=30107445&isAv=N

As has been pointed out, some records say 22 Aug 1872 for the footballer's DoB so it is very likely to be him. The Encyclopedia also says he "came from Garrison Artillery, Queenscliff".

This appears to be the record of his birth from Vic BDM. It's from 1872, but the parents names match those on his army record, and the Place of birth PENS should be Penshurst (I think it says that on the army papers):-

Record information
Event Birth
Event registration number 25335
Registration year 1872

Personal information
Family name COLLINS
Given names Daniel Charles
Sex Unknown
Father's name Joseph Robert
Mother's name Caroline (Duffy)
Place of birth PENS

If he enlisted in 1888 and was born in 1872, then he's 16. If it's 1867 he's 21.

He could have been a large lad who enlisted underage or may have enlisted at 21.

 

[35Daicos]

Collins it appears played for the saints as early as 1892 ( and possibly before that ) hence why he was called the noted St kilda footballer.

Tigerland Archive has him playing for Richmond in 1891, St Kilda after that:-
Daniel C 'Artillery' Collins 1891 3 1 StKilda 1892-96

https://www.tigerlandarchive.org/tiki-index.php?page=VFA+Players

"Conspicuous amongst the representatives of the home team was Collins, a recent importation from the Garrison Artillery. In the ruck this player outshone alike both friends and opponents"

http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/138029585 (21 May 1892 - St Kilda the home team referred to)

Incidentally, the old AFL Historical Statistics website had Dan Collins with a DoB of 10-01-1871 (which AFL Tables has), so it would be interesting to know where the new DoB shown on AustralianFootball and Wikipedia came from.

 

[35Daicos]

If he enlisted in 1888 and was born in 1872, then he's 16. If it's 1867 he's 21.

He could have been a large lad who enlisted underage or may have enlisted at 21.

It would presumably be unusual for his birth to be registered in 1872 if he was born five years earlier, but it's an area I know very little about so perhaps such things did happen. I'd say it's most likely he put his age up to enlist (he certainly was a big lad if just 16), yet the reference written by his employer (of twelve months) at Horsham did say "any body wanting a good man", which may or may not be of any significance!

 

[the croucher]

This thread continues to show new examples of information which is wrong or needs reviewing. So too, the "missing DOB / DOD" thread...

A number of posts on or around Christmas Eve 2015 highlighted the work undertaken by the Cricket Stats & Hist. group
https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/thre...fficial-records.1089761/page-13#post-42418368

One of the best aspects of that group's research related to finding not only dates of birth & death,
but places of birth & death as well.

...as perhaps will be seen in my next post about the Daniel C Collins matter.

 

[the croucher]

Tigerland Archive has him playing for Richmond in 1891, St Kilda after that:-
Daniel C 'Artillery' Collins 1891 3 1 StKilda 1892-96

https://www.tigerlandarchive.org/tiki-index.php?page=VFA+Players

"Conspicuous amongst the representatives of the home team was Collins, a recent importation from the Garrison Artillery. In the ruck this player outshone alike both friends and opponents"

http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/138029585 (21 May 1892 - St Kilda the home team referred to)

Incidentally, the old AFL Historical Statistics website had Dan Collins with a DoB of 10-01-1871 (which AFL Tables has), so it would be interesting to know where the new DoB shown on AustralianFootball and Wikipedia came from.

There are a number of articles about him in NSW papers in his later life,
but here are three from Trove (2 Vic, 1 NSW) after his death

ref to him at bottom of this article in the Sporting Globe
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/184823397

and this in The Australasian
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/a...-07-01|||dateTo=1925-07-31|||l-state=Victoria

very brief obit in the Sydney Morning Herald
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/16230432

as per 35 Daicos post earlier his Vic birth reg for 1872
lists parents as Joseph Robert and Caroline

at the NSW BDMs site
http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/Pages/family-history/family-history.aspx

death of Daniel C Collins reg in 1925 in Randwick district # 12050
parents Joseph R C and Caroline

 

[GreyCrow]

Just a note on the Queenscliff Artillery

Link

Though over two hundred military units have been associated with Fort Queenscliff since the 1860s, two major groups of permanent soldiers have been based here: the coastal gunners of the artillery and their technical support provided by the sappers of the fortress engineers. As well, there were Militia (part-time) soldiers who were to bring the Bay forts to full strength during wartime and who trained at the Fort throughout the year, particularly at camps over Easter.

To a great extent, the soldiers at the Fort were peacetime soldiers - and as has been said, 'soldiers in peace are like chimneys in summer'! Though always part of the town, the soldiers (leathernecks) could always find opponents such as the fishermen (squids) and rivalries, not always healthy, resulted. However, many soldiers married Queenscliff lasses and there are frequent cases of whole families of men joining the Service, sometimes over three generations.

The routine of the Fort governed the lives of its occupants. New recruits were given rigorous training by experienced non-commissioned officers, but given few privileges until they had fully joined their regiment. Married recruits were normally not accepted – indeed soldiers had to notify their commanding officer and, at times, gain his approval to marry. Prior to World War I, 'the married establishment', that is those who were entitled to married quarters and rations, was severely restricted.

What I am then seeing is an opportunity for a ''big hunk of a lad'' to join as a Cadet/Volunteer then later become a full soldier but his 'enlistment' taken back to when he volunteered. (doesnt mean I am right either )

Link

The early 1880s saw a rapid increase in the size of the colonial military forces. Between 1883 and 1885, the force rose from 8,000 to 22,000 men, although only roughly 1,000 of these were permanent soldiers.[67] In 1885, unpaid volunteer soldiering returned following the dispatch of a contingent of New South Wales soldiers to fight in the Sudan led to fears of a Russian attack on Australia. The resultant wave of patriotism forced the colonial governments to allow citizens to form new units of "second-line" troops who were not as well trained as the paid volunteers or voluntary militiamen.[69] This wave of patriotism resulted in the development of the concept of mounted infantry soldiers within Australian forces,[69] which would later be used in the Boer War and in the First World War as the "light horse", and it was around this time that an Australian character arguably began to develop amongst the colonial forces.[69]

Added: There may have been a team called the QA as players were still being cleared in 1939
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article205638685
And of course 1892 http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article90330178

Age didnt seem to be an issue for this Lieutenant http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article12493678

 

[rbartlett]

Some side points that may be of interest.

This article lists him as captain of Queenscliffe Artillery team in 1892 and that he is already playing with StKilda.
(It also mentions Nuttall - who is a StKilda player, and Lee, Power , Hunter who all play for Richmond as well, so that fills in a small gap for TigerlandArchive)
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article90330201

One year earlier, in 1891, he seems to be captain of QA as well.

In 1895 he references he could be the heaviest weight playing.

Looks like he went to England at some point in 1897

He also took over the Earl of Zetland Hotel, in Swanston St in 1897.

Our records show he played only two games for Richmond. 7/5/1892 and 21/5/1892. He also did play in pre season match 30/4/1892. I don't have him listed in our War list. He hasn't appeared in club Minute Books under those who went to war. But it seems apparent he did serve


He doesn't appear to be listed in HARDER THAN FOOTBALL in the Boer War section.

 

[35Daicos]

This article lists him as captain of Queenscliffe Artillery team in 1892 and that he is already playing with StKilda.
(It also mentions Nuttall - who is a StKilda player, and Lee, Power , Hunter who all play for Richmond as well, so that fills in a small gap for TigerlandArchive)
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article90330201

He doesn't appear to be listed in HARDER THAN FOOTBALL in the Boer War section.

I think the bit in The Encyclopedia about Collins serving in the Boer War is probably wrong, as there's (seemingly) no mention of it elsewhere.

Nonetheless, he certainly seems to have lived a very full life, running pubs in Melbourne and Sydney, in the police force and army, being a well-known horse trainer and playing VFL and VFA football, as well as playing in Sydney. The Sporting Globe article says he was a star for Essendon. I haven't seen that mentioned elsewhere either; if it's correct they must have meant Essendon Town in the VFA.

 

[the croucher]

I think the bit in The Encyclopedia about Collins serving in the Boer War is probably wrong, as there's (seemingly) no mention of it elsewhere.

Nonetheless, he certainly seems to have lived a very full life, running pubs in Melbourne and Sydney, in the police force and army, being a well-known horse trainer and playing VFL and VFA football, as well as playing in Sydney. The Sporting Globe article says he was a star for Essendon. I haven't seen that mentioned elsewhere either; if it's correct they must have meant Essendon Town in the VFA.

I thought so too, until I checked the National Archives site for all Boer War refs to surname Collins.

His record has been indexed incorrectly [name mis-read as David rather than Daniel]
https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/Sea...Reports/ItemDetail.aspx?Barcode=679640&isAv=N

 

[35Daicos]

I thought so too, until I checked the National Archives site for all Boer War refs to surname Collins.

His record has been indexed incorrectly [name mis-read as David rather than Daniel]
https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/Sea...Reports/ItemDetail.aspx?Barcode=679640&isAv=N

Great stuff!! At least he was happy to put his correct age in this time around!

rbartlett please note the post above this one!

 

[rbartlett]

I thought so too, until I checked the National Archives site for all Boer War refs to surname Collins.

His record has been indexed incorrectly [name mis-read as David rather than Daniel]
https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/Sea...Reports/ItemDetail.aspx?Barcode=679640&isAv=N

And if I add that to 35Daicos earlier post of NAA records, it looks like he enlisted in the Victorian Artillery. Which according to NAA: Permanent Artillery Corps (or the Victorian Artillery) – This force was created in 1870 to provide standing garrisons for fortifications in the colony, and instructional staff for Volunteer Forces artillery units. Its numbers never exceeded 300 men

So I am thinking I will add him to my War list, under that separate heading.
Of course, that doesn't solve his original birth date, but its nice we've painted a good overall picture of Dan's life - as his Wiki page is basic.

 

[35Daicos]

Of course, that doesn't solve his original birth date, but its nice we've painted a good overall picture of Dan's life - as his Wiki page is basic.

His death notice in The Sydney Morning Herald says "COLLINS.—July 6, 1925, at his residence, Selbrook, 221 Anzac-parade, South Kensington, Daniel Charles, dearly-loved husband of Frances Lillian Collins, aged 52 years. R.I.P."

http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/16233950 (08 Jul 1925)

That fits with him being born August 1872 so I imagine the one (some of) the records now show should be correct.

 

[rbartlett]

Great stuff!! At least he was happy to put his correct age in this time around!

rbartlett please note the post above this one!

Thanks buddy
I've added him to my War list. I've referenced the Vic Artillery, and then Boer War later in 1902
https://tigerlandarchive.org/tiki-index.php?page=War

I don't think I need to add him to the Stephen R email do I ?

 

[35Daicos]

Thanks buddy
I've added him to my War list. I've referenced the Vic Artillery, and then Boer War later in 1902
https://tigerlandarchive.org/tiki-index.php?page=War

I don't think I need to add him to the Stephen R email do I ?

I think they have it correct for DoB and DoD, so I'd say no. I presume AustralianFootball.com got their details from the AFL and therefore the AFL must have it right now, but maybe that's not the case?

 

[Harry Hook]

I've got a live one from the 1890s again.

Alex M Davidson is listed as having played 6 games for Fitzroy from 1897-8.

Wikipedia gives a DOB of 12 August 1876 and a DOD of 12 July 1951. AFL stats give the same date.I'll presume for this post that those details are correct.

Now the fly in the ointment.

Just doing some freelance searching, I came across this article from the Australasian of 16 November 1935.

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article141765506

This article details the detailed biography of a high new church official, Irving Davidson ( which also gives enlistment in World War 1 details).

Importantly that article says that Irving Davidson was a half back for Fitzroy in senior football in 1898. That player position can be checked.

The player list for Fitzroy for 1897-98 says only one Davidson played for Fitzroy in 1897 to 1898, being supposedly Alex M Davidson.

We may have a completely wrong player name.

 

[Harry Hook]

I think they have it correct for DoB and DoD, so I'd say no. I presume AustralianFootball.com got their details from the AFL and therefore the AFL must have it right now, but maybe that's not the case?

Never presume, we should add that to list, to correct AFL tables.

 

[35Daicos]

I've got a live one from the 1890s again.

Alex M Davidson is listed as having played 6 games for Fitzroy from 1897-8.

Wikipedia gives a DOB of 12 August 1876 and a DOD of 12 July 1951. AFL stats give the same date.I'll presume for this post that those details are correct.

Never presume, we should add that to list, to correct AFL tables.

???!!!

Yes, Harry, I agree AFL Tables should be notified about the Collins DoB. I genuinely would like to know where AustralianFootball.com got their details from in this case. If they were provided by the AFL (which seems highly likely!) I don't really know why AFL Tables wouldn't have been advised of the DoB change as well.

 

[Harry Hook]

???!!!

Yes, Harry, I agree AFL Tables should be notified about the Collins DoB. I genuinely would like to know where AustralianFootball.com got their details from in this case. If they were provided by the AFL (which seems highly likely!) I don't really know why AFL Tables wouldn't have been advised of the DoB change as well.

This Davidson one has me scratching my head.

In 1898 Davidson certainly was playing in defence so at first sight that part of the Irving Davidson article checks out.

This article from the Weekly Times in 27 May 1942 confirms that Irving Davidson was a former Fitzroy Footballer.

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-page23923301

And this article from the Age in 19 February 1936 in Irving Davidson's own words

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article205247550

refers to his football experience.

So there is ample contemporary evidence he played league football, albeit shortly.

This article from the Australasian in 1898 refers to him playing for Ormond and being the captain in May 1898 ( and being an ex Geelong Collegian which ties in with his biography)

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article138666640

Davidson plays the 2nd of his 3 1898 games for Fitzroy in June 1898 against South Melbourne , a month after the Ormond game.

As I see it we have 3 options:

(a) Alex Davidson played in both 1897 -1898:
(b) Irving Davidson played in both 1897 -1898; or
(c) Alex Davidson played in some games, say 1897 and the first game of 1898 and Irving say the last 2 games of 1898.

There is a mystery here.

 

[the croucher]

I've got a live one from the 1890s again.

Alex M Davidson is listed as having played 6 games for Fitzroy from 1897-8.

Wikipedia gives a DOB of 12 August 1876 and a DOD of 12 July 1951. AFL stats give the same date.I'll presume for this post that those details are correct.

Now the fly in the ointment.

Just doing some freelance searching, I came across this article from the Australasian of 16 November 1935.

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article141765506

This article details the detailed biography of a high new church official, Irving Davidson ( which also gives enlistment in World War 1 details).

Importantly that article says that Irving Davidson was a half back for Fitzroy in senior football in 1898. That player position can be checked.

The player list for Fitzroy for 1897-98 says only one Davidson played for Fitzroy in 1897 to 1898, being supposedly Alex M Davidson.

We may have a completely wrong player name.

Yes, quite possibly so.

Another article (which I've just noticed you have also linked to) published a few years on from the first one noted also makes specific reference to the Rev Irving Davidson being a former Fitzroy player.

Arthur Irving Davidson - info hinted at by Ancestry tree (exact dates)
and years are confirmed by Vic BDMs

parents Arthur Davidson & Helen (nee Pritchard)
born: 28 August 1875 Carlton, Vic reg #24032
died: 5 September 1961 Heidelberg, Vic reg #16696

 

[Harry Hook]

Another piece of the puzzle.

Irving Davidson's full name may have been A. Irving Davidson

cf Geelong Advertiser 20 August 1918

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article119751405

Wingham Chronicle 15 June 1917

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article166791662

Argus 16 February 1918

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article1640192

In later years he does not use the A. and maybe he preferred to call himself Irving.

Indeed a cursory glance at the embarkation roll shows that a chaplain Arthur Irving Davidson embarked on 3 June 1916.

 

[the croucher]

Another piece of the puzzle.

Irving Davidson's full name may have been A. Irving Davidson

cf Geelong Advertiser 20 August 1918

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article119751405

Wingham Chronicle 15 June 1917

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article166791662

Argus 16 February 1918

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article1640192

In later years he does not use the A. and maybe he preferred to call himself Irving.

Indeed a cursory glance at the embarkation roll shows that a chaplain Arthur Irving Davidson embarked on 3 June 1916.

Yes, that's him.

His entry in 1947 edition of Who's Who in Australia notes that he was with 37th Btn, AIF. It also notes his education - Geelong College, and Ormond College.

 

[Harry Hook]

Evidence that Rev. A. Irving Davidson played for Fitzroy Football.

cf this article from the Melbourne Punch of 1 March 1900, very close to 1898.

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article180536282

Apparently he was a "dashing member" of Fitzroy.