Resource - List thread - Inaccuracy in official records | Page 51 | BigFooty

Resource List thread - Inaccuracy in official records

Discussion in 'Footy History' started by Supermercado, Mar 9, 2015.

  1. rbartlett

    rbartlett All Australian

    Richmond
    Joined:
    Jan 04
    Posts:
    930
    Location:
    Melbourne
    Other Teams:
    Richmond
    Yeah, the absence of any solid connection seems to be the indication that I'm trying to force him into Richmond's timeline. And it's just not working.
    I might have to go back to the drawing board on who Jack Cathie is.

    I suspect one of our earlier researchers (say 10-15years ago) checked BDM and found Sylvester John fitted in birth-wise into Jack Cathie's Richmond debut date, and populated the first name field with that.

    So, at the moment I am removing Sylvester John Cathie as Richmond's Jack Cathie from my confirmed VFA and WAR list
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2017
    35Daicos likes this.

    (Log in to remove this ad.)

  2. Harry Hook

    Harry Hook Team Captain

    North Melbourne
    Joined:
    Sep 16
    Posts:
    375
    As for Jack Cathie, I found this reference to the death of Arthur Francis Cathie who was referred to specifically as Jack in the obituary.

    The Argus 7 January 1920

    http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article1672381

    I don't have access to Ancestry but it ppears A F Cathie's wife was born in 1880 so if we presume there is some age parity, that would put him in the correct age bracket to have played in 1902.

    A cursory glance of the reference's to Cathie's playing record at Richmond suggests that no initial was included.
     
  3. 35Daicos

    35Daicos Premium Platinum

    Collingwood
    Joined:
    Mar 11
    Posts:
    5,488
    Location:
    Adelaide
    Other Teams:
    Collingwood (VFL), Man Utd.
    That death notice ^ does say he was "aged 40 years" so the age would have been okay for sure. Must be some chance, especially with the 'Jack' thrown in.

    Event Birth
    Event registration number 490
    Registration year 1880

    Personal information
    Family name CATHIE
    Given names Arthur Francis
    Sex Unknown
    Father's name Jas
    Mother's name Elizabeth (Missen)
    Place of birth BEAUFORT
    ===================
    Event Death
    Event registration number 604
    Registration year 1920

    Personal information
    Family name CATHIE
    Given names Arth Francis
    Sex Unknown
    Father's name Cathie James
    Mother's name Elizth (Missen)
    Place of birth
    Place of death Bwk N
    Age 40
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2017
    Harry Hook and rbartlett like this.
  4. Harry Hook

    Harry Hook Team Captain

    North Melbourne
    Joined:
    Sep 16
    Posts:
    375
    You can find the family tree of AF Cathie for free if you search for the name Elizabeth Missen.

    Basically AF was born when his mother, Elizabeth Missen, was 36 and his father, James Cathie, was 41.

    He was the last of 6 children of which 3 were males. There was one other brother Henry Read Cathie, who was born 1877 (there was 23 in 1900) and another brother, James Edward, was born in 1865.

    Given whoever Jack Cathie only played from 1900 to 1903 , if any member of this Cathie family is Jack Cathie,it must be Henry Read or AF.
     
    rbartlett likes this.
  5. rbartlett

    rbartlett All Australian

    Richmond
    Joined:
    Jan 04
    Posts:
    930
    Location:
    Melbourne
    Other Teams:
    Richmond
    Thank you both.
    I'll ask WHL to seek out a descendant and I'll contact them and ask for a photo of Arthur and see how it compares to a 1902 team photo

    (nothing in 1920/1921 Annual Report about a Cathie death. 1920 Minute Book is not in our collection)
     
  6. rbartlett

    rbartlett All Australian

    Richmond
    Joined:
    Jan 04
    Posts:
    930
    Location:
    Melbourne
    Other Teams:
    Richmond
    I'm going cross-eyed.
    Looking for result of 1955 Melbourne Boys' League Grand Final - between Richmond 4ths and Sth Melb 4ths (at Nth Melb) - Aug 20 1955 (or day or so later).
    I've discovered Richmond went through the whole season undefeated, so just seeing if they won the Grand Final.
    (The 1955 Annual Report which would have all the info is in storage)

    Edit: Richmond lost the GF by 1 point (!). Though I'm still looking for the scores
     
  7. 35Daicos

    35Daicos Premium Platinum

    Collingwood
    Joined:
    Mar 11
    Posts:
    5,488
    Location:
    Adelaide
    Other Teams:
    Collingwood (VFL), Man Utd.
    I can't see it in The Age, The Argus, or the following week's Football Record. I imagine you would have seen the Richmond squad named in the Rd. 18 Record?
     
  8. rbartlett

    rbartlett All Australian

    Richmond
    Joined:
    Jan 04
    Posts:
    930
    Location:
    Melbourne
    Other Teams:
    Richmond
  9. GreyCrow

    GreyCrow Hall of Famer

    Adelaide
    Joined:
    Mar 16
    Posts:
    39,544
    Location:
    Down South Corvus Tristis
    Other Teams:
    Sturt, Redskins , White Sox
    From AIF details https://www.aif.adfa.edu.au/showPerson?pid=80108

    James Dobson born Collingwood NOK Mary Hansford (mother) aged 43 in 1915 . A James Dobson born 1872 to Thomas and Mary (Haloran) Mary remarries in 1880 to Hansford (and ironically for the NOK dies 1915)

    Enlistment date 11 November 1915
    Rank on enlistment Private
    Unit name 14th Battalion, 15th Reinforcement
    AWM Embarkation Roll number 23/31/4
    Embarkation details Unit embarked from Melbourne, Victoria, on board HMAT A68 Anchises on 14 March 1916
    Rank from Nominal Roll Private
    Unit from Nominal Roll 46th Battalion
    Fate Returned to Australia 8 April 1917

    Now whether this is yours or not remains to be seen
     
    rbartlett likes this.
  10. rbartlett

    rbartlett All Australian

    Richmond
    Joined:
    Jan 04
    Posts:
    930
    Location:
    Melbourne
    Other Teams:
    Richmond
    Just an fyi. With thanks to WhiteHartLane, we've managed to track down Norm Turnbull's grandson over in Europe.
    He confirms Norm is Norman Albert Victor Turnbull.
    He heard he may have been in WW1 but has no documentation of that.

    So we probably stick to the suggestion that he failed to attend compulsory drill training (possibly to a previous conviction).
     
  11. rbartlett

    rbartlett All Australian

    Richmond
    Joined:
    Jan 04
    Posts:
    930
    Location:
    Melbourne
    Other Teams:
    Richmond
    I'm going a bit bonkers.
    I'm trying to complete the TEAMS/SELECTED TEAMS for Richmond Reserves 1945.
    I've found majority of them except for Rd 1 (April 21), Rd 5 (May 19), Rd 7 (June 2), Rd 16 (Aug 4),
    If anyone stumbles across them in their journeys, I have a blank column to fill. Many thanks
    https://tigerlandarchive.org/tiki-index.php?page=1945+Reserves
     

    (Log in to remove this ad.)

  12. WhiteHartLane23

    WhiteHartLane23 Senior List

    Hawthorn
    Joined:
    Jul 14
    Posts:
    284
    Other Teams:
    Tottenham Hotspur
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2017
    GreyCrow likes this.
  13. WhiteHartLane23

    WhiteHartLane23 Senior List

    Hawthorn
    Joined:
    Jul 14
    Posts:
    284
    Other Teams:
    Tottenham Hotspur
    I stumbled across Gower Ross at the VFA Project website and thought the name sounded familiar – he came up in the players who served in war thread. He died in World War I and the article linked to in this post clearly identifies him as a Brunswick player who served in Flying Corps and died on his first flight.

    The reference on the VFA Project site to him playing for St Kilda triggered a query for me though – he is not one of the VFL players known to have died in war.

    Using published dates of birth/death (see Wikipedia) for the VFL player I found that they are those of Hubert Dalmore de Ross (the Brunswick player Gower Ross’s older brother)

    So, the question is which scenario do we have here?
    1) The player "Ross" for St Kilda in 1909 has been misidentified and is neither of the two brothers (he is clearly named as Ross in match reports but I have found no reference to "Gower" so far)
    2) The 1909 St Kilda player was Hubert Dalmore de Ross (1885-1955) and was somehow also known as Gower
    3) The 1909 St Kilda player is the same person as the Brunswick player “Gower Ross” - Adam Gower Sutherland de Ross (1890–1917) in which case we have a previously unidentified VFL player who died in WWI

    Few extra details:
    1) All of the family seem to be referred to as Ross rather than de Ross in news articles
    2) I have found no evidence of any permit for a Ross/de Ross in Trove searches
    3) Hubert Dalmore de Ross got married and has his first child (of 13) in early 1909 – the same year he is recorded as playing VFL football
    4) As far as I can tell, Gower Ross played for Brunswick from 1910 to 1915

    Any help would be greatly appreciated on this one....
     
  14. Gibbsy

    Gibbsy Moderator

    Collingwood
    Joined:
    Oct 09
    Posts:
    21,683
    Location:
    Geelong
    Other Teams:
    Manchester City, Victory, Cavs
    Oh man, how have I never heard about The VFA Project before? I knew about the Gap Chess Club site and use it a bit, but not this... are the two affiliated? Is there a BF thread for The VFA Project?
     
  15. 35Daicos

    35Daicos Premium Platinum

    Collingwood
    Joined:
    Mar 11
    Posts:
    5,488
    Location:
    Adelaide
    Other Teams:
    Collingwood (VFL), Man Utd.
    Here's a permit for G. Ross going from St Kilda to Brunswick in May 1910:- https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/10857425
     
  16. WhiteHartLane23

    WhiteHartLane23 Senior List

    Hawthorn
    Joined:
    Jul 14
    Posts:
    284
    Other Teams:
    Tottenham Hotspur
    It is a great new resource - see Michael Riley's original BF post here
    Hopefully soon match results from all seasons from 1877 onwards will be up - I've been helping upload into dB
     
    GreyCrow likes this.
  17. WhiteHartLane23

    WhiteHartLane23 Senior List

    Hawthorn
    Joined:
    Jul 14
    Posts:
    284
    Other Teams:
    Tottenham Hotspur
    35Daicos likes this.
  18. 35Daicos

    35Daicos Premium Platinum

    Collingwood
    Joined:
    Mar 11
    Posts:
    5,488
    Location:
    Adelaide
    Other Teams:
    Collingwood (VFL), Man Utd.
    https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/66826222 (27 May 1910)

    Brunswick induced M'Kenzie to take the field again, and tried Ross and Cazaly, formerly of St. Kilda.

    https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/155071833 (April 1916)

    FOOTBALLER BECOMES AVIATOR
    Mr. Gower Ross, who is well known as a prominent member of the Brunswick football team, has enlisted in London as a member of the Imperial Aviators' Corps.
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2017
  19. the croucher

    the croucher All Australian

    Geelong
    Joined:
    Oct 00
    Posts:
    961
    Location:
    Launceston

    I believe AGS de Ross is the player involved, and therefore we have another incorrectly identified VFL player. Hubert's name should be replaced by that of Adam Gower Sutherland [de] Ross.

    AGS is listed on Ancestry pages in the UK WW1 records as a member of the Royal Flying Corps.

    When Hubert's death notice appeared in The Age on 1 Sept 1955, his given name is listed as Hubert,
    and his family also listed in one of the notices includes a son named Gower.
    https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=2wAzAAAAIBAJ&sjid=6JQDAAAAIBAJ&pg=5970,77285
     
  20. 35Daicos

    35Daicos Premium Platinum

    Collingwood
    Joined:
    Mar 11
    Posts:
    5,488
    Location:
    Adelaide
    Other Teams:
    Collingwood (VFL), Man Utd.
    I think the AFL have the right name for this player (they are calling him Gower rather than Hubert) but they absolutely have the wrong DOB and DOD for him. Either way, (more) superb work by WHL!
     
  21. RedmanWasHere

    RedmanWasHere Rarely in kitchens at parties.

    Essendon
    Joined:
    Aug 10
    Posts:
    14,673
    Location:
    Information Superhighway
    Other Teams:
    Exers, Gryffindor, Brisbane AFLW
    Not necessarily a name error but a headshot error.

    Geelong's 2002 player headshots in the Round 22 copy of the AFL Record has what looks like 2 photos of James Kelly and none of Steve Johnson.
     
  22. WhiteHartLane23

    WhiteHartLane23 Senior List

    Hawthorn
    Joined:
    Jul 14
    Posts:
    284
    Other Teams:
    Tottenham Hotspur
    I've emailed Stephen Rodgers with this - will let you know when I hear back
     
  23. WhiteHartLane23

    WhiteHartLane23 Senior List

    Hawthorn
    Joined:
    Jul 14
    Posts:
    284
    Other Teams:
    Tottenham Hotspur
    Response from Stephen Rodgers below - AFL records are being updated.

    ...regarding the Gower Ross situation.

    I'm in at the AFL today, and just going thru the old clearance book, I couldn't find a clearance for him for St k to Bruns in May 1910 - as you noted; he was in VFA clearances at that time. Weird that he didn't have an outgoing clearance , from the VFL (although I know there are other cases like this) - maybe that added to the initial confusion over the name!

    Barb Cullen has just been in, trying to get her head around this! - (because, I think you know, she 'finished' the KIA plaques for the AFL!!
    Will still try to manage it somehow!)

    She was just wondering please, do you have a record of G.Ross's Brunswick career (just years, games and goals) - as she will 'add that in' to any future references to him.

    Regards,
    SR
     
  24. Michael Riley

    Michael Riley Team Captain

    St Kilda
    Joined:
    Jun 12
    Posts:
    328
    Other Teams:
    Brighton VFA
  25. Michael Riley

    Michael Riley Team Captain

    St Kilda
    Joined:
    Jun 12
    Posts:
    328
    Other Teams:
    Brighton VFA
    Fitzroy Round 10 1937
    https://afltables.com/afl/stats/games/1937/061119370626.html

    I believe Les Hughson played and not Mick Hughson

    Age League Teams has "L.Hughson" Friday before the game.
    TEAMS FOR TO-MORROW. (1937, June 25). The Age (Melbourne, Vic. : 1854 - 1954), p. 5. Retrieved December 16, 2017, from http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article203872115

    Age League teams for the following week does not list Hughson as an alteration to the team
    TEAMS FOR TO-MORROW. (1937, July 2). The Age (Melbourne, Vic. : 1854 - 1954), p. 14. Retrieved December 16, 2017, from http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article205567833

    Third... I believe that this is possibly a team photo from that game
    http://www.boylesfootballphotos.net.au/Fitzroy+Senior+Team+1936+(FBLHS+S36-1)
    This photo cannot be 1936. Either Frank Curcio or Doug Nicholls played in every game in 1936 and neither are in the photo.

    And all players appear to match the homegame in Round 10...apart from the fact that it is Les Hughson (Far right centre row).
    Back: Alf Callick, Unknown, Unknown. Bill Multimer, Dinny Ryan, Bill Lowenthal, Unknown
    Centre: R. 'Jock'.McKenzie, Wally Gray, B.Treweek, Unknown (T.Williams), Haydn Bunton, Unknown, Horrie Dawson, Les Hughson
    Front: Micky Sharp, Unknown, Wilfred Smallhorn

    If it is Tommy Williams in the centre of the photo then I cannot match this photo to any game?
     
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2017
Back To Top

Share This Page