Any objections to the above being submitted to the AFL as the possible missing StKilda 1901 Richardson?
Resource List thread - Inaccuracy in official records
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Any objections to the above being submitted to the AFL as the possible missing StKilda 1901 Richardson?
WHAT!
My initial thought is does that help our research, or is that one of the strange cases of coincidence ever.
GreyCrow
TheBrownDog
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I think your attachments are convincing.
Some more.
1905 Pratt is listed as coming from South Ballaarat http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article242531035 though AH Pratt is born in Collingwood. ( his death notice says born Abbotsford. )
South to St Kilda 1906 http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article242602530
Not named this mid year July 1906 game suggests a clearance permit somewhere must exist http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article242621552
1910 suspension hangs over head to start season http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article10854783
1910 June confirming Pratt of Northcote for Melbourne http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article10866532
So there is a clear line from 1905 to 1910 and listing each club in his Bio. The clear point is that the above Archibald Thomas Pratt cant be the player noted above
GreyCrow
TheBrownDog
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Event registration number 2790 Registration year 1880 Personal information Family name RICHARDSON Given names William Kendall
Father's name Wm Geo Mother's name Elizabeth (Medway)Place of birth GLONG
Event registration number 9230 Registration year 1878 Personal information Family name RICHARDSON Given names Alfred George
Father's name William George Mother's name Elizabeth (Medway) Place of birth GEELONG
Hmm whattya know
Here's his permit (St Kilda to Northcote): https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/189371002 (28 June 1906)
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I think it helps if anything - there were so many cases of brothers playing in that era...
For complicated, drastic changes like this, ideally it would be good for the afl website, footy record or season guide to explain it fully in an article. For minor changes to dates of birth, death or full names, then any of the website updates would be sufficient.
Your website is probably also sufficient, if it's deemed to be a reliable source. Generally, self published websites are not reliable sources (ie forums etc), but from the Reliable Source/Verifiability page "Self-published expert sources may be considered reliable when produced by an established expert on the subject matter, whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications." So, as you've published a book, and (we at least) consider you an expert, you're probably OK. But, everything is OK until someone challenges it. Given most of what we are dealing with are 100-150 year old footballers, it's unlikely (we're much more likely to get an attack of "a 1 game player from 1900 isn't notable, delete him!"). And then there is the whole COI aspect to this, is anyone in the AFL industry truly independent! But, lets not worry about that, just keep improving, researching, and getting as many sites updated and aligned.
Here's the A. Richardson from the 1900 Leopold team photos:
Here's a 1920 photo of A. G. Richardson of the Derwent Bowling Club (looks a likely match to me!):
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Yes, Rhett. please re-submit William Cross Woods as the person we believe to be the player. Post #1758 to be the one forwarded on as it is best summary of findings and includes suggestion that the AFL purchase mother's death certificate to help clarify family names and connections.
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GreyCrow
TheBrownDog
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Again I'm convinced. The eye shape and the nose slant are very similar. The shape of the head also matches.
Okay , I will re-submit William Cross Woods and as per 35Daicos picture post - Alfred George Richardson as the Leopold/StKilda/Perth guy.
(That would leave Richardson 1899 as the only unnamed)
(That would leave Richardson 1899 as the only unnamed)
UPDATE 1: I got Gigs from AF to update https://australianfootball.com/players/player/horrie+lyons/1127 page. It now reflects the new changes. So ThePope or WhiteHartLane23 can you change the wiki page now, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horrie_Lyons as it uses AF as a legitimate source.
UPDATE 2: Gigs is going to update Archie Richardson's page over weekend to reflect ONLY Richmond VFA . Then ThePope WhiteHartLane23 can change Archie's wiki page.
UPDATE 3: AFLTables have already created the new 1900 StKilda player William Kendall Richardson. So ThePope WhiteHartLane23 can use that to create a new wiki page for him
SIDE NOTE : As a side note I'm going to email the club and ask if they'll allow me to write a mini summary of some of the Richmond changes we've uncovered ongoing. That could also be used as a source.
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UPDATE: SUCCESS! Stephen Rogers accepts the research that the 1901 StKilda player is Alfred George Richardson. b: 1878, d: 1 December 1951
So well done all. I'll update the spreadsheet tomorrow and we can filter through the changes.
(That just leaves the 1898 Richardson. Can I ask, what do we currently know about the 1898 Richardson for StKilda ?)
UPDATE 2:
Rogers still disagrees that William Cross Woods is the player. We had an email chain back and forth but I've paste a couple of his responses below.
Rogers understands if we don't think its any other name he will just leave the entry empty in the meantime.
"There are still a couple of minor issues with the Woods one. For example, that players' register wasn't written up "many years after" but rather at the time; the club secretary (or someone similar) submitted those names of players to the VFL, whose scribe wrote them in the register.
Another issue is that Col has said, yes, Ike had a brother William
(William Cross Woods?) but Ike's full brother wasn't the player;
his half-brother, also William
(seemingly William Henry Woods) WAS the Geelong player! .....
I'm virtually certain, the player's register isn't wrong!;
so unfortunately, it seems we have to go with William Henry.
(And I'm pretty sure Col, before, has considered William Cross -
and rejected him.)"
So well done all. I'll update the spreadsheet tomorrow and we can filter through the changes.
(That just leaves the 1898 Richardson. Can I ask, what do we currently know about the 1898 Richardson for StKilda ?)
UPDATE 2:
Rogers still disagrees that William Cross Woods is the player. We had an email chain back and forth but I've paste a couple of his responses below.
Rogers understands if we don't think its any other name he will just leave the entry empty in the meantime.
"There are still a couple of minor issues with the Woods one. For example, that players' register wasn't written up "many years after" but rather at the time; the club secretary (or someone similar) submitted those names of players to the VFL, whose scribe wrote them in the register.
Another issue is that Col has said, yes, Ike had a brother William
(William Cross Woods?) but Ike's full brother wasn't the player;
his half-brother, also William
(seemingly William Henry Woods) WAS the Geelong player! .....
I'm virtually certain, the player's register isn't wrong!;
so unfortunately, it seems we have to go with William Henry.
(And I'm pretty sure Col, before, has considered William Cross -
and rejected him.)"
Hi Guys,
Just finished adding in the three new Richardson's...
William Richardson
https://australianfootball.com/Players/player/William Richardson/20377
Alfred Richardson
https://australianfootball.com/Players/player/Alfred Richardson/20381
Unknown Richardson
https://australianfootball.com/Players/player/Mr. Richardson/20378
As well as fixing up Archie's...
https://australianfootball.com/Players/player/archie richardson/1222
Cheers,
Ollie
Just finished adding in the three new Richardson's...
William Richardson
https://australianfootball.com/Players/player/William Richardson/20377
Alfred Richardson
https://australianfootball.com/Players/player/Alfred Richardson/20381
Unknown Richardson
https://australianfootball.com/Players/player/Mr. Richardson/20378
As well as fixing up Archie's...
https://australianfootball.com/Players/player/archie richardson/1222
Cheers,
Ollie
I think I have discovered a couple more fresh entries for the "coach unable perform duties/caretaker coach" list
and will research the detail over the weekend and post updates here.
Cannot recall them being raised before, but happy to find out that that they have been !
In 1930 Colin Niven (Fitzroy) was suspended for eight weeks
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/183731801
and in 1941 Jack Knight (St Kilda) returned to supervision of training having been suspended for two weeks
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/8195091
The year-by-year tribunal lists at Boyles Football Photos site are proving quite useful for researching this matter:
https://boylesfootballphotos.net.au/Reference_+1930+VFL_AFL+Tribunal
and will research the detail over the weekend and post updates here.
Cannot recall them being raised before, but happy to find out that that they have been !
In 1930 Colin Niven (Fitzroy) was suspended for eight weeks
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/183731801
and in 1941 Jack Knight (St Kilda) returned to supervision of training having been suspended for two weeks
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/8195091
The year-by-year tribunal lists at Boyles Football Photos site are proving quite useful for researching this matter:
https://boylesfootballphotos.net.au/Reference_+1930+VFL_AFL+Tribunal
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UPDATE 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horrie_Lyons now updated (team effort here)
UPDATE 2: Archie Richardson's page now updated
UPDATE 3: new wiki page for William Richardson created
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Thank you WhiteHartLane23 . Archie Richardson is also updated on Australian Football if you wanna source that on the wiki page as well.
https://australianfootball.com/Players/player/archie richardson/1222
Alfred George Richardson is a newbie as well, if you want to grab a new wiki for him. AF can be the source
https://australianfootball.com/Players/player/Alfred Richardson/20381
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This is very impressive
The Tribunal page from the old AFL Historical Statistics site can still be accessed for anyone that's not aware. The page can be sorted by club, season etc. which is very handy, though it tends to be rather slow at completing the task.
http://web.archive.org/web/20130410...on_idIndex=0&guiltyIndex=0&AFLstatisticMenu=1
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Done - see Alfred Richardson
Also added DODs to wiki for Dick Day and Rhoda McDonald following addition of death details to australianfootball.com
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Here is what I found... nothing that useful I'm afraid
- Richardson is listed in St Kilda squads in Friday Herald several times
- Mentioned once in actual match reports (see ref 10 below)
- One mention of a Richardson playing well for South Yarra the week before he played in Rd 5 for St Kilda
- note: it is not out of the question that this player could be either Alfred (1901 player) or William (1900 player)
Richardson (St Kilda) 1898 - three games
Rd Date Against
1 14/05/1898 Melbourne
5 04/06/1898 South Melbourne
SR3 10/09/1898 Geelong
Notes/References:
1) Rd 1 Friday teams on 13 May 1898 – Richardson listed http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article241620301
2) Saturday 14 May 1898 – Herald is first Edition on Trove/Google – no football report
3) Richardson not mentioned in Rd 1 match report in Argus, Age or Australasian
4) Rd 2 Friday teams on 20 May 1898 – Richardson not listed http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article241617039
5) Rd 3 Monday teams – no St Kilda team http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article241616841
6) Rd 4 Friday teams on 27 May 1898 – Richardson listed http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article241611079
7) http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article66854494 Richardson played “a rattling good game” for South Yarra on 28/5/1898 – could this be him?
8) Rd 5 Friday teams on 3 June 1898 – no St Kilda team http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article241611079
9) Saturday 4 June 1898 – Herald is first Edition on Trove/Google – no football report
10) Rd 5 Richardson listed in Record report http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article108484116
11) Rd 5 Richardson not mentioned in match report in Argus, Age or Australasian
12) Rd 6 Friday teams - no St Kilda team http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article241604879
13) SR2 Friday teams on 2 Sep 1898 – no Richardson listed http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article241857094
14) SR3 Friday teams on 9 Sep 1898 – no St Kilda team listing
15) Saturday 10 September 1898 – Herald is first Edition on Trove/Google – no football report
16) SR3 Richardson not mentioned in match report in Argus, Age, Australasian, Geelong Advertiser
Looks like Rhoda's death date in the wiki has reverted back to unknown? Though the history page on the wiki doesnt say who undid it
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Yes Rhett, that is very strange. When looked at by a casual unid. visitor the entry has date of death unknown,
but as soon as I login with my wiki username it reverts to correct one as updated by WHL !
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Relatively minor thing but "Alf" McDougall was a player for Fitzroy from 1898-1902 - I think Alf is incorrect
Was looking him up on Ancestry and Trove and found that DOB/DOD for this player are for Albert Henry McDougall
Contemporary reports never seem to use Alf - they refer to him as "Ab" McDougall (see search results) or in this review article from 1934 "Abe" McDougall. He gets at least as many mentions in the press for his cricket and his football.
Few other bits of info about "Ab" McDougall
1. He played for St Mary's from 1895-1897 and had a few games with North Melbourne in the VFA in 1896 before becoming a premiership player with Fitzroy.
2. He was born in Auckland, New Zealand
3. He was the father of Roy McDougall (Fitzroy - 1930-32) - see http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article4100777
4. He served in WWI as a mechanic for the 1st Australian Flying Corps - war service not previously known so will add him to the players who served in war thread
Was looking him up on Ancestry and Trove and found that DOB/DOD for this player are for Albert Henry McDougall
Contemporary reports never seem to use Alf - they refer to him as "Ab" McDougall (see search results) or in this review article from 1934 "Abe" McDougall. He gets at least as many mentions in the press for his cricket and his football.
Few other bits of info about "Ab" McDougall
1. He played for St Mary's from 1895-1897 and had a few games with North Melbourne in the VFA in 1896 before becoming a premiership player with Fitzroy.
2. He was born in Auckland, New Zealand
3. He was the father of Roy McDougall (Fitzroy - 1930-32) - see http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article4100777
4. He served in WWI as a mechanic for the 1st Australian Flying Corps - war service not previously known so will add him to the players who served in war thread
