Resource List thread - Inaccuracy in official records

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the croucher

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Relatively minor thing but "Alf" McDougall was a player for Fitzroy from 1898-1902 - I think Alf is incorrect

Was looking him up on Ancestry and Trove and found that DOB/DOD for this player are for Albert Henry McDougall
Contemporary reports never seem to use Alf - they refer to him as "Ab" McDougall (see search results) or in this review article from 1934 "Abe" McDougall. He gets at least as many mentions in the press for his cricket and his football.

Few other bits of info about "Ab" McDougall
1. He played for St Mary's from 1895-1897 and had a few games with North Melbourne in the VFA in 1896 before becoming a premiership player with Fitzroy.
2. He was born in Auckland, New Zealand
3. He was the father of Roy McDougall (Fitzroy - 1930-32) - see http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article4100777
4. He served in WWI as a mechanic for the 1st Australian Flying Corps - war service not previously known so will add him to the players who served in war thread
Yes "Abe" seems most likely - it is used here in the birth notice for his son Roy who as you note later played with Fitzroy.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/198609480
 

the croucher

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UPDATE: SUCCESS! Stephen Rogers accepts the research that the 1901 StKilda player is Alfred George Richardson. b: 1878, d: 1 December 1951
So well done all. I'll update the spreadsheet tomorrow and we can filter through the changes.
(That just leaves the 1898 Richardson. Can I ask, what do we currently know about the 1898 Richardson for StKilda ?)

UPDATE 2:
Rogers still disagrees that William Cross Woods is the player. We had an email chain back and forth but I've paste a couple of his responses below.
Rogers understands if we don't think its any other name he will just leave the entry empty in the meantime.

"There are still a couple of minor issues with the Woods one. For example, that players' register wasn't written up "many years after" but rather at the time; the club secretary (or someone similar) submitted those names of players to the VFL, whose scribe wrote them in the register.

Another issue is that Col has said, yes, Ike had a brother William
(William Cross Woods?) but Ike's full brother wasn't the player;
his half-brother, also William
(seemingly William Henry Woods) WAS the Geelong player! .....
I'm virtually certain, the player's register isn't wrong!;
so unfortunately, it seems we have to go with William Henry.
(And I'm pretty sure Col, before, has considered William Cross -
and rejected him.)"
Thanks for passing on the update Rhett.
Just to clarify then, could you check with AFL House please -
are they going to purchase a copy of William Henry Woods 1890 birth certificate [ Emma Woods named as mother ]
and also / or by itself the Emma Woods 1892 death certificate ?


Alternatively I suppose they may have a way of accessing those documents and checking the full details listed on each,
and advising us further of such findings.
 
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WhiteHartLane23

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Another mis-identified player: "Kelly" Robinson is listed in sources (Encyclopedia, wiki) as John Henry "Kelly" Robinson (21 November 1873 – 5 December 1944), although the DOB/DOD seems to be for a James Henry Robinson from a look at Trove....

Regardless, when I stumbled across this article I realised the player had been mis-identified - http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article181672264 (Sporting Globe, 27 Nov 1943)
"Flags at Fitzroy were at half-mast today for the late Mr J. P. ('Kelly") Robinson, who died yesterday after a long illness, aged 67 years. He played for Fitzroy in the 90's."

Proposed new player details
Name: James Peter Robinson
Birth: 1876 in Tooborac (near Heathcote) - as per http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article89691184 his father was a blacksmith at Tooborac
Death: 26 Nov 1943 at North Fitzroy - see death notice http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article245799784
 

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rbartlett

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Archie Pratt (17 January 1879 – 24 September 1962) played for South Melbourne, St Kilda and Melbourne in 1905, 1906 and 1910 (and apparently Northcote in between)

The dates of birth/death are those of Archibald Thomas Pratt, born in Maitland NSW and died in Hornsby, NSW
Added to online spreadsheet
 

rbartlett

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rbartlett

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Supermercado I need you to alter your Mod Alert message on page 1. The link to the dropbox spreadsheet is fine however it can't be edited by anyone. So happy for people to look at it at the link, but if they want to add to it, I suggest tagging me in a new post so I can keep a track of the suggestion.
 

Gibbsy

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Supermercado I need you to alter your Mod Alert message on page 1. The link to the dropbox spreadsheet is fine however it can't be edited by anyone. So happy for people to look at it at the link, but if they want to add to it, I suggest tagging me in a new post so I can keep a track of the suggestion.
All good Rhett, that was me who added the message in the OP. Will alter now.
 

WhiteHartLane23

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George Stewart played for Carlton in the first two rounds of 1909 season

There are several articles from 1909 that describe him as:
• From Eaglehawk
• A fast wing player

Current sources all have date of birth 19 June 1888 and date of death 3 May 1985
Encyclopedia names him as George W. Stewart
Harder than Football has him as George Wilkinson Stewart (served in WWII at age 54)

I was looking for a full name and place of birth/death and think we have another mis-identified player.

The current person credited with these games:
1. was the son of James Stewart and Annie Cobbledick – Vic Birth Record 1889/23181 (Kyneton)
2. does not seem to have any official record with a middle name
3. has service record that identifies him as being born in Mooroopna and living in Darkan, WA at time on enlistment http://www.ww2roll.gov.au/Veteran.aspx?serviceId=A&veteranId=841979
4. is buried at Karrakatta – http://www2.mcb.wa.gov.au/NameSearch/details.php?id=KC00080538

However, based on where George’s siblings were born, James and Annie and their family moved to WA in 1892, when George was quite young, and there is no evidence he ever returned to Victoria or played football that I have been able to find.

So, going back to the football records of 1908/09, I found plenty of articles for Eaglehawk football with the names Stewart and Wilkinson (http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article227848089) and a reference to him having a hyphenated name Wilkinson-Stewart (http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article227822376) and being known by both names.

References to him being a champion firefighter http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article227866319 http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article226856732

He played for Eaglehawk in the same weeks as he played for Carlton – Bendigo league played on Wednesdays in 1909.

A photo of him in Carlton team http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article222257988 and a photo a few years later of him as fire-fighter http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article226856732 - this article also confirms he was a butcher by trade.

He got married to Annie Hall in 1905 http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article89582841
Now the only Annie Hall in Vic BDM that was married in 1905 was Annie Maud Hall who married a George Samuel Stewart

About 1915 he seems to have stopped using the name Wilkinson
From this point electoral rolls have the name Samuel Boyd Stewart (butcher, living with Annie Maud)

Vic BDM death record 1966 / 28115 has George Samuel Boyd Stewart dying in Bendigo aged 85 giving birth approx. 1881 and states place of birth as Scotland. I think this variously named man was the player but would appreciate thoughts, challenges and additional research from any board members
 

rbartlett

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George Stewart played for Carlton in the first two rounds of 1909 season

There are several articles from 1909 that describe him as:
• From Eaglehawk
• A fast wing player

Current sources all have date of birth 19 June 1888 and date of death 3 May 1985
Encyclopedia names him as George W. Stewart
Harder than Football has him as George Wilkinson Stewart (served in WWII at age 54)
While liaising with Rogers about other things, he must has noticed this George Stewart post and wanted me to pass on the following that in the Player Register of Season 1909 he is listed as George Wilkinson Stewart
 

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rbartlett

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Rogers also advised me of a change to a Melbourne players record.
Lynda Carroll has written a lengthy email to him, and rather than paste it here , I'll extract some of the info
To cut a long story short, the Jim Dorgan currently with Melbourne 1949, and then Sth Melb 1951-1958 are infact two different people.

"On Grand Final Day, a gentleman visited the MCC Library and asked to look at the Encyclopedia of League Footballers. His name is Pete Dorgan
Essentially, his problem is that the J Dorgan on record - in the Encyclopedia, in afltables, everywhere else - is actually TWO PEOPLE.
Pete's father was John (or Jack - John Walter 'Black Jack') Dorgan. The notes I got from Pete were:

Mr. John Dorgan
Played in Melbourne Seconds in 1948, 49 - ??? [can probably confirm further]
Won Best and Fairest in 1948 in the Reserves [can confirm]
Played 3 senior games in 1949.

Using Trove...
"Jack Dorgan won the Echuca B&F, mentioned as former Melbourne Seconds and Williamstown player, Riverine Herald, 2 October 1951. This is a good detail, because Jim played five games for South Melbourne in 1951."

"Jim Dorgan, South Melbourne's reliable back pocket player," The Age, 3 March 1954

OK. We've got John/Jack and Jim - two people
So - there were more articles in 1954, and Jim Dorgan was more cemented at South Melbourne in that year - played 18 games after suffering a broken leg the year before - than in 1951.
Jack Dorgan - named as coach of Echuca East, in the Riverine Herald, 24 March 1954. So, Jack and Jim are distinctive identities, playing/coaching at slightly different times, in different places.
Info on them being brothers http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article74723225

Jack Dorgan, Melbourne winger, who has been given an open clearance by the Demons, appeared. [Richmond pre-season training]The Age, 10 March 1950
John Dorgan played with the local Rovers but has had games with Melb. League team since then; he is a utility man. Williamstown Chronicle, 21 April 1950
So, that takes him from Melbourne in 1949 (and before) to Williamstown in 1950. That's mentioned above when he wins the Echuca B&F in 1951, which establishes continuity.
There is also mention that 'Dorgan was cleared to Echuca' from Williamstown. The Age, 11 April 1951. That's Jack, while Jim, meanwhile, is getting set to play for South, and will ultimately go on to win the B&F as well as coming third in the Brownlow in 1956.
A family profile style piece in 1953 reads:

Jack Dorgan, who coached Echuca East to a premiership of the Echuca League last year, has been reappointed for 1954 at a meeting of the East committee.

For two years Dorgan played with Echuca, firstly as a centreman and later as a half-back flanker, and three years ago won the trophy as best and fairest in the Echuca team.

Last year he was a utility player for East and was to the fore in the pennant win, proving a sound coach and a good leader.

His brother Frank, in his second year as coach of Williamstown Rovers, won the premiership in the past season. [Frank is also mentioned as playing for Melbourne Seconds].

A third brother, Jim, played in the back pocket with South Melbourne this year, but after figuring prominently until the middle of the season had the misfortune to break his leg. Riverine Herald, 4 December 1953

Part of the problem, of course, is that some articles have Jack/John/Jim confused.

In 1999, Jack (who died in 2001, notice in the Herald Sun; Jim died in 1965, notice in The Age) was presented with a Life Membership in Echuca - his time at Melbourne is mentioned.

And there he is - 'Black Jack' Dorgan, a wonderful identity, all of his own. Just for interest, add a Jack Mueller connection, suburban and country football, a large family in the railways - and playing for Melbourne, of course. What more could you ask for?

So in summary from Stephen Rogers...

James Anthony "Jim" Dorgan
born 26/11/30
died 30/1/2003

ex Williamstown

South Melb 1951-58
102 games 2 goals

Height/weight 173/73


John Walter "Jack" Dorgan
nickname Black Jack
born 8/11/26
died 2/9/2001

ex Williamstown Rovers

Melb 1949
3 games 0 goals

Height and weight still to come
 
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35Daicos

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He got married to Annie Hall in 1905 http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article89582841
Now the only Annie Hall in Vic BDM that was married in 1905 was Annie Maud Hall who married a George Samuel Stewart

About 1915 he seems to have stopped using the name Wilkinson
From this point electoral rolls have the name Samuel Boyd Stewart (butcher, living with Annie Maud)

Vic BDM death record 1966 / 28115 has George Samuel Boyd Stewart dying in Bendigo aged 85 giving birth approx. 1881 and states place of birth as Scotland. I think this variously named man was the player but would appreciate thoughts, challenges and additional research from any board members
This should be the record of his wife's death:
Event Death
Event registration number 2987
Registration year 1981

Personal information
Family name STEWART
Given names Annie Maud
Sex Female
Father's name HALL William
Mother's name Mary (Martin)
Place of birth Eaglehawk
Place of death Mornington
Age 100
 

35Daicos

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Rogers also advised me of a change to a Melbourne players record.
Lynda Carroll has written a lengthy email to him, and rather than paste it here , I'll extract some of the info
To cut a long story short, the Jim Dorgan currently with Melbourne 1949, and then Sth Melb 1951-1958 are infact two different people.

"On Grand Final Day, a gentleman visited the MCC Library and asked to look at the Encyclopedia of League Footballers. His name is Pete Dorgan
Essentially, his problem is that the J Dorgan on record - in the Encyclopedia, in afltables, everywhere else - is actually TWO PEOPLE.
Pete's father was John (or Jack - John Walter 'Black Jack') Dorgan. The notes I got from Pete were:

Mr. John Dorgan
Played in Melbourne Seconds in 1948, 49 - ??? [can probably confirm further]
Won Best and Fairest in 1948 in the Reserves [can confirm]
Played 3 senior games in 1949.

Using Trove...
"Jack Dorgan won the Echuca B&F, mentioned as former Melbourne Seconds and Williamstown player, Riverine Herald, 2 October 1951. This is a good detail, because Jim played five games for South Melbourne in 1951."

"Jim Dorgan, South Melbourne's reliable back pocket player," The Age, 3 March 1954

OK. We've got John/Jack and Jim - two people
So - there were more articles in 1954, and Jim Dorgan was more cemented at South Melbourne in that year - played 18 games after suffering a broken leg the year before - than in 1951.
Jack Dorgan - named as coach of Echuca East, in the Riverine Herald, 24 March 1954. So, Jack and Jim are distinctive identities, playing/coaching at slightly different times, in different places.
Info on them being brothers http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article74723225

Jack Dorgan, Melbourne winger, who has been given an open clearance by the Demons, appeared. [Richmond pre-season training]The Age, 10 March 1950
John Dorgan played with the local Rovers but has had games with Melb. League team since then; he is a utility man. Williamstown Chronicle, 21 April 1950
So, that takes him from Melbourne in 1949 (and before) to Williamstown in 1950. That's mentioned above when he wins the Echuca B&F in 1951, which establishes continuity.
There is also mention that 'Dorgan was cleared to Echuca' from Williamstown. The Age, 11 April 1951. That's Jack, while Jim, meanwhile, is getting set to play for South, and will ultimately go on to win the B&F as well as coming third in the Brownlow in 1956.
A family profile style piece in 1953 reads:

Jack Dorgan, who coached Echuca East to a premiership of the Echuca League last year, has been reappointed for 1954 at a meeting of the East committee.

For two years Dorgan played with Echuca, firstly as a centreman and later as a half-back flanker, and three years ago won the trophy as best and fairest in the Echuca team.

Last year he was a utility player for East and was to the fore in the pennant win, proving a sound coach and a good leader.

His brother Frank, in his second year as coach of Williamstown Rovers, won the premiership in the past season. [Frank is also mentioned as playing for Melbourne Seconds].

A third brother, Jim, played in the back pocket with South Melbourne this year, but after figuring prominently until the middle of the season had the misfortune to break his leg. Riverine Herald, 4 December 1953

Part of the problem, of course, is that some articles have Jack/John/Jim confused.

In 1999, Jack (who died in 2001, notice in the Herald Sun; Jim died in 1965, notice in The Age) was presented with a Life Membership in Echuca - his time at Melbourne is mentioned.

And there he is - 'Black Jack' Dorgan, a wonderful identity, all of his own. Just for interest, add a Jack Mueller connection, suburban and country football, a large family in the railways - and playing for Melbourne, of course. What more could you ask for?

So in summary from Stephen Rogers...

James Anthony "Jim" Dorgan
born 26/11/30
died 30/1/2003

ex Williamstown

South Melb 1951-58
102 games 2 goals

Height/weight 173/73


John Walter "Jack" Dorgan
nickname Black Jack
born 8/11/26
died 2/9/2001

ex Williamstown Rovers

Melb 1949
3 games 0 goals

Height and weight still to come
What an amazing story! It's the kind of story we are more used to seeing come from the game's earlier years, not from "relatively" modern times!

This article suggests that John/Jack won Melbourne's 2nd Eighteen award for 1948.
 
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rbartlett

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FYI.
Rodgers told me today that the AFL recognises Richmond as winning the wooden spoon in 1916, not Fitzroy.

In 2002 they AFL changed the wooden spoon from Fitzroy to Richmond.
"Because, with all clubs competing in the finals, the interpretation was extended for that season, to include the finals, because all were taking part." - Stephen/Col told me today.

There's no physical award- its just how the AFL has decided to interpret that year.
I personally would recognise Fitzroy at 'wooden spooners' for that year, but thought I'd tell you what the AFL's official stance is.
(no follow up required , just an fyi)
 
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the croucher

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Added to online spreadsheet though waiting for further information to add incl possible caretaker coach
update:

Niven 1930 - replaced by Arthur Batchelor for last seven of eight weeks he was under suspension
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/183731801
...more research needed to check if anyone should be credited with first game as it appears that Batchelor was only appointed to position after the 21 June match which Niven missed.


Knight 1941 - replaced by Col Williamson for two weeks
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/205171846
 

WhiteHartLane23

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35Daicos

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Change accepted by S Rodgers. (Infact, he had Albert Henry written down on his sheets previously, but had 'Alf' as the nickname
Over to the Wikipedia people to fix, as well as Oliver Gigacz and ~whatever AFLTable/Paul's bf username is ~
It's just *Paul* !

They would also need to know about the story of the two Dorgan's, if they haven't been made aware of it.
 

rbartlett

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So in summary from Stephen Rogers...

James Anthony "Jim" Dorgan
born 26/11/30
died 30/1/2003

ex Williamstown

South Melb 1951-58
102 games 2 goals

Height/weight 173/73


John Walter "Jack" Dorgan
nickname Black Jack
born 8/11/26
died 2/9/2001

ex Williamstown Rovers

Melb 1949
3 games 0 goals

Height and weight still to come

Okay Wiki folks, please update. Oliver Gigacz and *Paul* update also when possible.
Spreadsheet updated
 

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