Resource - List thread - Inaccuracy in official records | Page 79 | BigFooty

Resource List thread - Inaccuracy in official records

Discussion in 'Footy History' started by Supermercado, Mar 9, 2015.

  1. the croucher

    the croucher All Australian

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    I think a correction needs to be made to official records for goalkickers in the 1917 Rnd 1 match South Melbourne v Geelong.
    AFL details appear to have goals listed for Sth Melb as Boyce 3, Howell 2, Caldwell, Robertson, O’Donoghue & Doherty 1 each.
    https://australianfootball.com/game/view/1570

    Remove O'Donoghue and credit that goal to Howell so totals read
    Boyce 3, Howell 3, Caldwell, Robertson and Doherty 1 each.

    Evidence as per VFL Record Rnd 2 see page 14, plus match reports in The Herald & the Geelong Advertiser
    http://handle.slv.vic.gov.au/10381/131827
    https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/242682079
    https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/119724684
     
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  2. the croucher

    the croucher All Australian

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    Have come across another curly one.

    While checking on who was official captain for Collingwood at start of 1917 season (it is McHale, not Wilson as listed in many sources/sites); I noticed this passing reference to McHale missing the Rnd 3 match vs Fitzroy due to "business reasons."
    https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/...imits=dateFrom=1917-05-01|||dateTo=1917-05-31

    If he was unable to play and perform his role as captain for reasons given, then isn't it likely that he was also unable to be present and perform role as coach that day ?

    He also missed the Rnd 4 match but so far haven't found any comment in the press about that.
     
  3. Oliver Gigacz

    Oliver Gigacz Premium Platinum

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  4. 35Daicos

    35Daicos Premium Platinum

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    This article (from the same paper and column a week later) suggests McHale was dropped for the Fitzroy game due to poor form:
    upload_2018-12-2_20-49-44.png
     
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  5. the croucher

    the croucher All Australian

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    Ah, thanks.
    Given he was virtually at the end of his playing career, that does seem a more likely explanation.
     
  6. 35Daicos

    35Daicos Premium Platinum

    Collingwood
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    Yes. The Football Record (Rd. 4) has the same story:
    upload_2018-12-2_21-17-59.png
     
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  7. rbartlett

    rbartlett All Australian

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  8. 35Daicos

    35Daicos Premium Platinum

    Collingwood
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    I've only just started looking into this one, but it seems pretty likely that Jack Cronk played (instead of Edmund Hood) for Richmond in their 1917 Rd. 4 game against Fitzroy.

    The Herald names Cronk in the lineup (post match), and has Hood(e) as one of four players going out of the side. Cronk was in the team the week before. The Age also has Hood going out. A week later The Herald had Cronk as one of three players going out of the Rd. 5 team.
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2018
  9. rbartlett

    rbartlett All Australian

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    This one has already been raised as forum post 1834.
     
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  10. 35Daicos

    35Daicos Premium Platinum

    Collingwood
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    Doh! That will teach me for not checking the thread/spreadsheet! It does look very clear cut, so I presume we're just waiting on approval then the changes can be made.
     
  11. 35Daicos

    35Daicos Premium Platinum

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    I see the Football Record Season Guide and Collingwood Forever website have Wilson instead of McHale for Collingwood captain in 1917. The Football Record was in no doubt that McHale was the captain, so it's puzzling that the AFL records now name Wilson.
    upload_2018-12-2_22-23-20.png
    Edit: The Grand Final Football Record still names McHale as captain and Wilson vice-captain on the "team list" page. This Sporting Judge article has Wilson as captain on Grand Final day. McHale was in the side. The Leader also has Wilson as captain on GF day. The same paper suggests Wilson was captain for the Rd. 14 game (McHale played).

    The book The Mightiest Magpies - The Story Of Every Collingwood Premiership Season 1896-2010 says "Wilson was appointed captain early in the season to replace Jock McHale."

    McHale only played 9 games that year, while Wilson played 18. Seemingly, because McHale was struggling (and no longer an automatic selection) the move was made at some stage of the year. Even though it looks like he was replaced, and wasn't captain of the Premiership-winning team, I'd have thought McHale still deserves to have his name in the records for 1917 (along with Wilson).
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2018

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  12. GreyCrow

    GreyCrow Hall of Famer

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    As a sidelight Wraith the person dropped for McHale in 1917 also missed the 1919 flag
     
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  13. 35Daicos

    35Daicos Premium Platinum

    Collingwood
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    If he was dropped (again) for the 1919 GF he must have been very unlucky! He kicked 2 goals (out of 6) the week before in the Prelim Final against Richmond, and two in the other final Collingwood played that year.

    He did play in the (losing) Grand Final side in 1918!!
     
  14. GreyCrow

    GreyCrow Hall of Famer

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    His father died

    http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article203694237
     
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  15. Oliver Gigacz

    Oliver Gigacz Premium Platinum

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    I am gradually going through the spreadsheet and updating AF accordingly, will hopefully get through it this week. Just put in a couple of the new players today.

    George Alfred McLeod (Serial 85) has been added and the other George McLeod has been amended.

    https://australianfootball.com/Players/player/George McLeod/20446

    I have also added Tom Darcy (Serial 89) with Jim Darcy amended, however there seems to be conflicting reports on his DOB/DOD. Do we have a definitive DOB/DOB?

    DOB: 1881 DOD: 29/12/1953 is the info I have.

    https://australianfootball.com/players/player/Tom+Darcy/20445
     
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  16. the croucher

    the croucher All Australian

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    Seems to have been an error in the system for a long time.
    Have just checked my copy of the 1968 Footy Annual and Wilson is listed there as captain for 1917.
     
  17. the croucher

    the croucher All Australian

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    I've begun a detailed audit of "official" captains in the VFL era. Note: at moment this relates principally to start of season.
    I'll adjust list as more detailed research occurs, including refs to mid or late season changes.

    1897 - all clear, same as listed on most club honour boards and publications

    1898 - Carlton in error, the captain at start of that season was Jimmy Aitken, not Walton
    https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/227737521
    https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/108484043

    1914 - Richmond in error [some publications and sites, but Tigerland Archive has correct info]
    Richmond's captain at start of that season was Charlie Ricketts, not Thomas
    https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/119685073

    he had resigned by 15 May 1914
    https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/7250033

    Barney Herbert took over as official captain
    https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/119685202

    but resigned within weeks and was replaced by
    Bill Thomas
    https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/119685343

    1917 - Collingwood in error, captain at start of that season was Jock McHale, not Wilson
    https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/242677016

    1923 - Collingwood in error, captain at start of that season was Percy Rowe, not Curtis
    https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/page/20629254

    1940 - St Kilda in error, captain at start of that season was Ansell Clarke, not Lloyd
    https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/206773113
     
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  18. ThePope

    ThePope Premiership Player

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    Has the split and details of the 2 McLeods been confirmed? I found some detailed investigation in previous pages, but I couldn't see any confirmation. Could there actually be 3 G McLeods?

    Australian Football has the 1903 player alone, and the other player 1897, 1901-1902 and 1910-1913.

    I agree that the dates of birth and death for the 1903 alone player matches Lt Col George A McLeod 1871-1921 - see death notice and war record, which has him as a 44/45 year old journalist from Colac when enrolling in 1915/16 (1903 player was from Colac). Departure tribute has no footy mention & no Tassie mention. The mentions of him travelling from Colac to St Kilda make the link fairly clear - unless there is an "Alex/Walter Johnston" style 2 players playing a few games each in the same season. Maybe the team photo was the 1902 McLeod, not the 1903 McLeod. Maybe 1902 McLeod played in Yea in 1903, then to Tassie in 1904?

    Do we have any evidence that 1897 is also 1901-1902 McLeod other than not being explicitly described as a new player? Do we know for sure which St Kilda McLeod ended up in Tassie, then Essendon? The reference to playing for St Kilda "for a season" and "about 3 years" in the 1910 clearance story is strange (actually 7 or 8 years by then), and I can't find any other evidence he played in Yea.

    Regarding the "W McLeod" mentions, looking for an alternative George W (or W George) McLeod in the Vic birth records, there is one born in 1883, that would match the 1902-1913 range, maybe 1901, but not 1897. There is also a William George in 1871, but that's unlikely to still be playing in 1913.
    1883; reg #: 18065; Mcleod George William; father: William; mother:Lambden Lydia Jane; birth place:Melbourne​
    {edit - ignore this, just checked the death records, this George William died at age 2}

    Essendon's McLeod ended up at Brunswick in 1913 too. Still playing in 1915, which would be as a 36 year old if it's the 1879 birth.
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2018 at 3:58 AM
  19. WhiteHartLane23

    WhiteHartLane23 Senior List

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    Confirmed from Steve Rodgers that Tom Darcy's details are
    Full name: Thomas Darcy
    Birth: 22 Feb 1881 at Toolamba, Victoria
    Death: 29 Sep 1955 at Cheltenham, Victoria

    Apologies - I got the DOD wrong in the spreadsheet so will update!!!

    *Paul* - DOB is also missing at AFL Tables
     
  20. WhiteHartLane23

    WhiteHartLane23 Senior List

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    Very happy for this to be examined further but what has gone into AFL records is as per australianfootball.com changes - new player credited with games in 1903 only. That change was based on - as you said above - the mentions of him travelling from Colac to St Kilda making the link fairly clear.

    The lack of subsequent references to Lt Col George A McLeod 1871-1921 having played football make it unlikely he played for a long period. Electoral rolls and the departure tribute indicate he did not spend multiple years interstate so in the absence of evidence to change anything further that was where it ended. Fully agree though that it is not 100% clear and absolutely would not be surprised if there was a need for further changes as more evidence is uncovered...
     
  21. *Paul*

    *Paul* Club Legend

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    Round 5, St Kilda (v Carl), 1993, currently Everitt no goals, Bowey one.
    Everitt kicked a goal, and according to Inside Football stats, Bowey kicked none.
     
  22. Oliver Gigacz

    Oliver Gigacz Premium Platinum

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    Thanks for the update, this has been changed...

    https://australianfootball.com/players/player/Tom+Darcy/20445

    This is also makes him the 1,000th V/AFL player (for now).

    If anything changes I'll update AF ASAP.
     
  23. rbartlett

    rbartlett All Australian

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    Barb Cullen has access Walter Johnston's war file (the new Richmond player)
    It includes a photo of him . Not sure if we already have one of him in his older years.
    Walter Johnston war pic.png
     
  24. RedmanWasHere

    RedmanWasHere Rarely in kitchens at parties.

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    Here's one from Ancestry.

    [​IMG]

    Though I'm not sure which one has him looking older.
     
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