Resource List thread - Inaccuracy in official records

rbartlett

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Can I confirm that the player who played for Melbourne 1909-1910, then Richmond 1911 is named LESLIE GEORGE IRWIN.
https://tigerlandarchive.org/tiki-index.php?page=Les+Irwin
http://demonwiki.org/Les+Irwin
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Les_Irwin_(footballer)


Because:
Here is his clearance from Melbourne to Richmond in 1911 as L. Irwin http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article10901250
I then see a permit from Richmond to South Australia in 1913 as Leslie Irwin http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article199445029
But the permit in The Argus for the same player appears to give him the middle initial of Leslie B (or R) Irwin.
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article10781591
which wouldn't correspond to the Les Irwin that Demonwiki have (or Barb Cullen's book), because if we click on the War record at the bottom of Demonwiki it says his name is Leslie George Irwin
http://demonwiki.org/Les+Irwin
https://discoveringanzacs.naa.gov.au/browse/person/228134
I think this is him in the 1909 MFC team photo , on his debut.
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article222254157


Side note:
To make matters worse, I got distracted by a "Jack Irwin" seemingly trying to try out for the club in 1913 for Richmond, from Beverley (which is the team I have Les Irwin coming from prior to going to the Melbourne Football Club) But he might also be the Irwin below who tried out with Melbourne as well.
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-page28120600
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article254613401

Side note 2:
And Melbourne seems to have played a recruit in 1909 pre season 'Irwin (Melbourne Swimming Club)'
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article196904165 which Demonwiki note as not the Les Irwin.
 
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rbartlett

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UPDATE:
Maybe that's just a typo - L B. Irwin
Because a look at South Adelaide team in 1914 there is L. G. Irwin
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article6422868

UPDATE:
And then in 20 Feb 1915, the list those sportsmen who have gone to the front - and there's a G. Irwin for South Adelaide
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article59119340

But obv he's L Irwin as listed here as well http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article59117271

Interestingly, Les Irwin's enlistment paper from Demonwiki takes place in Melbourne on Jan 5 1915, so he must have returned after 1914 Sth Adelaide season to enlist in Melbourne.

Is there something that's not quite right? Or are the dots connected fine?
 
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35Daicos

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UPDATE:
Maybe that's just a typo - L B. Irwin
Because a look at South Adelaide team in 1914 there is L. G. Irwin
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article6422868

UPDATE:
And then in 20 Feb 1915, the list those sportsmen who have gone to the front - and there's a G. Irwin for South Adelaide
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article59119340

But obv he's L Irwin as listed here as well http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article59117271

Interestingly, Les Irwin's enlistment paper from Demonwiki takes place in Melbourne on Jan 5 1915, so he must have returned after 1914 Sth Adelaide season to enlist in Melbourne.

Is there something that's not quite right? Or are the dots connected fine?
I'm still looking at the O'Brien story for now! The bloody power went off for about an hour tonight; very annoying, just hasn't been my day!
 

rbartlett

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I think you are right
Ah well, there's nothing wrong with double-checking/triple-checking players is there.
And hey, look on the bright side - I've told Demonwiki I've found a photo of Les Irwin, who he didn't have one of.
 

35Daicos

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My BDM search was obv playing up as I couldnt see any of those deaths - so apologies for that.
This in-depth obit of the drowned Thomas Coleman O'Brien makes no reference of Richmond or Swan Hotel. So still not sure if it is him.
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article60205231

UPDATE: This from 1914 says he is now up in Sydney http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article254623852, perhaps training with Herb McCoy (boxer), or having some connection with him
Not sure if he stayed there, but perhaps he died in NSW somewhere
This says the licence of the Swan Hotel, South Richmond, was transferred from Thomas Coleman O'Brien to Thomas Michael O'Brien late in 1913: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/196228937

The Thomas Coleman O'Brien who died (at Healesville) in 1921 had a father (who also died earlier that year) Thomas Michael O'Brien, according to Vic BDM.

I now think it's extremely likely that this is the right chap! The names fit, he died tragically, and at a reasonably early age. It seems he only had the pub for a year or two at the most, so perhaps that explains why his hotel connection (at least) wasn't 'newsworthy' in 1921.
 
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rbartlett

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Ah the transfer license gives us the answer. Thank you 35Daics and all.

Bit of extra info - this obit says he was visiting his sister at the time, and that he had a brother Charles O'Brien.
And then incredibly says that the father, mother, and two brothers have all died in the last 12 months.
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article60205231
 

GreyCrow

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UPDATE:
Maybe that's just a typo - L B. Irwin
Because a look at South Adelaide team in 1914 there is L. G. Irwin
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article6422868

UPDATE:
And then in 20 Feb 1915, the list those sportsmen who have gone to the front - and there's a G. Irwin for South Adelaide
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article59119340

But obv he's L Irwin as listed here as well http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article59117271

Interestingly, Les Irwin's enlistment paper from Demonwiki takes place in Melbourne on Jan 5 1915, so he must have returned after 1914 Sth Adelaide season to enlist in Melbourne.

Is there something that's not quite right? Or are the dots connected fine?
2 things to note that confirm for me that LG is the right person

1. The AIF site does NOT list a George Irwin from SA enlisting
2. The AIF site lists Leslie George Irwin as aged 27 . AF list Irwin born in March 1887 so the January enlistment indeed leaves him at 27 .
 

rbartlett

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In Richmond's 1908 Annual Report, under Players for that season, it lists two names that have never appeared on any other official lists.

J Green
W Johnson (note that is separately lists A Johnson (sic) who is Alex Johnston)

If anyone comes across who they are, or why they are on that list, please advise.
Perhaps they were practice match players ? , or players permitted to the club that never played a senior game.
You may remember we discovered that W Johnson is Walter Johnston - a new RFC player.

With J Green, I'm yet to find which game in 1908 he actually played, but considering everyone else on the front page of the Annual Report played, its logical conclusion he is also a new RFC player. But without knowing which game it was, we can't recognise him as a player.

However..a bit of info has surfaced.
There is a Joe Green who played for the Court Robin Hood Cricket Club, which seems to be based around Richmond area, as it appears alot in the Richmond Guardian, and a few of his team mates were Richmond players. I know this is 3-4 years after the 1908 season, but it's possible it may be the J Green in the Richmond Annual Report. Anyhow something to consider
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-page28120597
 

GreyCrow

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You may remember we discovered that W Johnson is Walter Johnston - a new RFC player.

With J Green, I'm yet to find which game in 1908 he actually played, but considering everyone else on the front page of the Annual Report played, its logical conclusion he is also a new RFC player. But without knowing which game it was, we can't recognise him as a player.

However..a bit of info has surfaced.
There is a Joe Green who played for the Court Robin Hood Cricket Club, which seems to be based around Richmond area, as it appears alot in the Richmond Guardian, and a few of his team mates were Richmond players. I know this is 3-4 years after the 1908 season, but it's possible it may be the J Green in the Richmond Annual Report. Anyhow something to consider
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-page28120597
Speaking of Robin Court Cricket. I chased up George Lockwood again . George Lockwood was mentioned in a Robin Hood 1918 annual meeting as one of 2 people to have passed away, but I am yet to find any official confirmation anywhere

Last night I came across a conundrum I would like answered if anyone has ideas

One possibility was War Service ( even at 46) yet there are only 2 George Lockwoods and one George Hislop Lockwood died in France in April 1917.

Yet George Hislop Lockwood is listed in 1918 SA BDM death list.

1. Can an overseas death be listed on the home country site? That is the 1st time I have seen an overseas death listed (and a year after)
2. The only Obit notice for a George Hislop Lockwood is a year after in 1918 by his grandfather who lived in WA (yet his mothers maiden name was Chambers)

The timing intrigues me
 

35Daicos

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You may remember we discovered that W Johnson is Walter Johnston - a new RFC player.

With J Green, I'm yet to find which game in 1908 he actually played, but considering everyone else on the front page of the Annual Report played, its logical conclusion he is also a new RFC player. But without knowing which game it was, we can't recognise him as a player.

However..a bit of info has surfaced.
There is a Joe Green who played for the Court Robin Hood Cricket Club, which seems to be based around Richmond area, as it appears alot in the Richmond Guardian, and a few of his team mates were Richmond players. I know this is 3-4 years after the 1908 season, but it's possible it may be the J Green in the Richmond Annual Report. Anyhow something to consider
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-page28120597
Just in case you're not aware of this, the name Green appeared in the Richmond squad quite a few times in 1908 at least:

For the Rd. 9 game: https://afltables.com/afl/stats/games/1908/141519080620.html
Rd. 11 he was in the squad again: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/242919348
For the Rd. 15 game: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/242916694

I haven't seen his name in an actual lineup, however.
 
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Gibbsy

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If you want to numb your brain a little then go and read this thread on the main board about the '1870 debate' being raised by (guess who) Colin Carter yet again.

The argument comes up every couple of years or so. I'd like to see some nuanced discussion around the topic from the members of this board rather than the trolls and simpletons on the MB.

If someone wants to start up a new thread on this Footy History board, they are more than welcome.
 

rbartlett

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Just in case you're not aware of this, the name Green appeared in the Richmond squad quite a few times in 1908 at least:

For the Rd. 9 game: https://afltables.com/afl/stats/games/1908/141519080620.html
Rd. 11 he was in the squad again: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/242919348
For the Rd. 15 game: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/242916694


I haven't seen his name in an actual lineup, however.
Thanks for the reminder.
I've looked everywhere for him listed in a lineup and still unsuccessful. But you never know what the future research brings.
That and identifying who exactly he is.

Cheers
 

the croucher

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Just an update for you all. My research into list of captains for VFL/AFL clubs 1897 onwards continues to progress but is still at "draft/incomplete" stage at moment. The Trove newspapers site once again being an invaluable source of information.

Unfortunately, but sadly not unexpectedly, the 2019 Season Guide appears to have numerous errors in the club "honour roll" lists of people shown year-by-year.

Some of these mistakes relate to the player supposedly named as official captain at start of a particular season, and others relate to "official" replacements made during a season. Simply to show the scale of the problem here is list of clubs/seasons needing correction that have been discovered so far:

Carlton - 1898, 1899, 1902, 1922, 1944

Collingwood - 1916, 1917, 1923, 1938

Essendon - 1919,

Geelong - 1919,

Melbourne - 1901, 1911

Nth Melb - 1927,

Richmond - 1914

Sth Melb - 1926

St Kilda - 1899, 1908, 1935, 1940

Given the scale of errors found, I wonder if it ought to be a separate thread when it comes time later to reveal the evidence in support of changes needing to be made ?
 

ThePope

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Probably best for a new thread, maybe a separate post per team.

My historical focus on Fremantle, of course is much easier, only going back 25 seasons, but a few years ago I started trying to document each of the stand in/acting captains when the main captain didn't play.

To date I've used club or newspaper reports to confirm which vice captain took over captaincy duties, but I assume that the AFL receives and keeps official team sheets before each match. Do these nominate a captain? How far back do these team sheets go?
 

the croucher

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Probably best for a new thread, maybe a separate post per team.

My historical focus on Fremantle, of course is much easier, only going back 25 seasons, but a few years ago I started trying to document each of the stand in/acting captains when the main captain didn't play.

To date I've used club or newspaper reports to confirm which vice captain took over captaincy duties, but I assume that the AFL receives and keeps official team sheets before each match. Do these nominate a captain? How far back do these team sheets go?
Well done. This research game can be a long, hard slog at times, but oh so worthwhile.

Not sure how much original material is kept/held by AFL House. I remember posing a similar question about Brownlow voting slips some years ago, not sure I ever received an answer.

The QVMAG collections in Launceston have original NTFA voting slips for a few games in about 1927 (?), randomly kept examples of team sheets, player registration forms, and clearance papers, from 1960s/70s/80s, and the comp official minute books from about 1940 to about 1986.

Archive Tasmania in Hobart have an interesting range of records, think I've spotted good range of minute books etc for pre-WW2 clubs like Lefroy and Cananore.

Wonder how extensive the WAFL collection is ?
 

rbartlett

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Stephen Rodgers advised on email that
"we've had a notification, from Essendon, that for the player William Harrison, 1909-11, the man we currently have in the records is wrong.
We're in the process of trying to get the correct details - it's a really messy, not straightforward one - and of course I'll pass on when we hopefully get the correct details."

ping WhiteHartLane23
 
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