Resource List thread - Inaccuracy in official records

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rbartlett

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In a brief email conversation with Stephen Rodgers today he also advised of a new update; that the Jack Ross who played for Geelong from 1919-1922, is actually made up of two different people!
John William Ross (1919 : 2 games)
John Charles Ross (1920-1922 33 games)

Seems that there is a new name to add to your records.

Rhett
 

35Daicos

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Adding to what Rhett has pointed out about the Geelong/Ross situation, Stephen Rodgers has confirmed that they are still looking into the 1916 team lineup issues and hope to have things finalised pretty soon.
 

35Daicos

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http://afltables.com/afl/stats/games/1900/091519000707.html

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/page/18520045
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/page/322053
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/page/11412184

There looks to be a problem with the rd. 10 1900 St Kilda team lineup. Sutherland is not in the "official lineup", but named in match reports of The Argus and The Australasian as having played. He is not mentioned in The Age, however Minahan (real name O'Gorman) is named as one of 4 absentees. O'Gorman is named in the official lineup (and as having scored a goal). Sutherland had been in the team all season, and should have been named as an absentee if not playing.

http://afltables.com/afl/stats/games/1900/031519000714.html

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/page/322181

For the rd. 11 game against Carlton, The Argus said "St Kilda had Sutherland and Hall away" but they are named in the AFL Tables team (which I presume matches the official lineup). There's no mention of absentees in the other 2 papers.
 
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35Daicos

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http://afltables.com/afl/stats/games/1900/031119000707.html

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/page/18520045
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/page/322053
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/page/11412184

Arthur Sowden is named in the AFL Tables Melbourne 1900 rd. 10 team lineup, but it seems highly likely he did not play, and that Byers took his place. The Age says they were "without their flyer, Sowden" and "Byers, who made his reappearance with Melbourne after an absence of six weeks". The Argus says "Melbourne had to find substitutes for Sowden," and Byers is said to have played. The Australasian also mentions the absence of Sowden.

http://afltables.com/afl/stats/games/1900/091119000714.html

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/page/18520108
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/page/322181
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/page/11412240

In rd. 11 Sowden is named in all 3 papers as having played, but is not in the AFL Tables lineup. As for who shouldn't be there, I don't think any of Byers, Pirrie, Sholl and Strahan were mentioned, so probably one of them, but can't be sure at the moment.
Supermercado

Edit:
https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=EVKlETVVbN8C&dat=19000713&printsec=frontpage&hl=en

The Herald (day before rd. 11 game) names a Melbourne lineup, Pirrie and Sholl are included but Byers and Strahan aren't. A couple of players were also named but clearly didn't play, so I'm not sure how reliable this is.
 
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Supermercado

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http://afltables.com/afl/stats/games/1900/031119000707.html

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/page/18520045
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/page/322053
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/page/11412184

Arthur Sowden is named in the AFL Tables Melbourne 1900 rd. 10 team lineup, but it seems highly likely he did not play, and that Byers took his place. The Age says they were "without their flyer, Sowden" and "Byers, who made his reappearance with Melbourne after an absence of six weeks". The Argus says "Melbourne had to find substitutes for Sowden," and Byers is said to have played. The Australasian also mentions the absence of Sowden.

http://afltables.com/afl/stats/games/1900/091119000714.html

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/page/18520108
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/page/322181
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/page/11412240

In rd. 11 Sowden is named in all 3 papers as having played, but is not in the AFL Tables lineup. As for who shouldn't be there, I don't think any of Byers, Pirrie, Sholl and Strahan were mentioned, so probably one of them, but can't be sure at the moment.

Supermercado
Thanks, I'll add notes to each of those pages and hopefully the official story can be cleared up.
 

royals1922

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Another potential inaccuracy from the War thread

Attached is an article from the Winner of 12 April 1916

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article154555355

If you pan down you will see a reference to Eric Kerr, who played a few games of football for University, and was a brother of Frank Kerr.

Only Frank Kerr is listed as having played football for University in AFL records but the Winner article does not make any "presumption" mistakes. It says that Eric played a couple of games for University and then compares him to his brother.

It is worth investigating.
 

35Daicos

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Another potential inaccuracy from the War thread

Attached is an article from the Winner of 12 April 1916

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article154555355

If you pan down you will see a reference to Eric Kerr, who played a few games of football for University, and was a brother of Frank Kerr.

Only Frank Kerr is listed as having played football for University in AFL records but the Winner article does not make any "presumption" mistakes. It says that Eric played a couple of games for University and then compares him to his brother.

It is worth investigating.
Well and truly worth investigating. In this 1911 Inter-Collegiate game, both E. Kerr and F. Kerr played, and many other University names (Elliott, Doig, Hinman x2 etc.) are also mentioned:- http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/196201482

I can't see anything else at the moment but hopefully something will show up.
 

royals1922

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Well and truly worth investigating. In this 1911 Inter-Collegiate game, both E. Kerr and F. Kerr played, and many other University names (Elliott, Doig, Hinman x2 etc.) are also mentioned:- http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/196201482

I can't see anything else at the moment but hopefully something will show up.
Looking at the games F Kerr played, in one year he played 2 games, 1912 from memory. Also E looks like an F in type , especially in the ol d newspaper font
 

35Daicos

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Sowden is listed in AFL records as having played in round 10 1900v Carlton and is specifically mentioned in the Leader of 14 July 1900 as "having a run in the country" and was not playing.

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article198181230
The story in The Leader was written by "Follower", who also covered the round's matches in The Age (seems to have been a common practice) so the articles should agree in terms of the likes of ins/outs and best players, but saying Sowden was "having a run in the country" is very handy, and leaves no real doubt at all that he didn't play that game.

Both articles (again, as might be expected) name Minahan (O'Gorman) as one of 4 St Kilda absentees that week, though he is named in the "official lineup".
 

royals1922

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It would seem that captain Eric John Kerr, also a doctor, like his brother, may have died in action in 1917.

Note Frank was a ruckman whilst Eric a wingman.
 

35Daicos

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It would seem that captain Eric John Kerr, also a doctor, like his brother, may have died in action in 1917.
Yes, he did:-

http://www.mcc.org.au/-/media/Files/MCC Roll of Honour 1914 18.pdf

66. CAPTAIN ERIC JOHN KERR
From Hampton. Attended Camberwell Grammar, Wesley College – Captain of XI, 1909 – and Queen’s
College. Resident Surgeon, Melbourne Hospital, 1915. Enlisted in Australian Army Medical Corps in
May 1916, serving with the 3rd Pioneer and 41st Battalions. He was killed while serving with the 11th
Field Ambulance at Passchendaele on October 4, 1917. He was buried at Ypres Reservoir Cemetery. He
was 25. Memorial Doors were erected in his memory in the Wesley College Hall
 

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royals1922

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Yes, he did:-

http://www.mcc.org.au/-/media/Files/MCC Roll of Honour 1914 18.pdf

66. CAPTAIN ERIC JOHN KERR
From Hampton. Attended Camberwell Grammar, Wesley College – Captain of XI, 1909 – and Queen’s
College. Resident Surgeon, Melbourne Hospital, 1915. Enlisted in Australian Army Medical Corps in
May 1916, serving with the 3rd Pioneer and 41st Battalions. He was killed while serving with the 11th
Field Ambulance at Passchendaele on October 4, 1917. He was buried at Ypres Reservoir Cemetery. He
was 25. Memorial Doors were erected in his memory in the Wesley College Hall
If he was 25 in 1917 , in 1909 when Frank first played he would have been 17.

In 1913 when Frank last played he would have been 21.

I don't have the heights but if Frank tucked and Eric played a field position , then inferentially you are looking at games where the games where the Kerr was not named in ruck.
 

35Daicos

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If he was 25 in 1917 , in 1909 when Frank first played he would have been 17.

In 1913 when Frank last played he would have been 21.

I don't have the heights but if Frank tucked and Eric played a field position , then inferentially you are looking at games where the games where the Kerr was not named in ruck.
Yes, E. Kerr played on the wing for Queens in the college game (I presume this is why you've brought this up), brother Frank was 179cm (ruckman size back then) according to this:- http://afltables.com/afl/stats/players/F/Frank_Kerr.html
 

royals1922

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Yes, E. Kerr played on the wing for Queens in the college game (I presume this is why you've brought this up), brother Frank was 179cm (ruckman size back then) according to this:- http://afltables.com/afl/stats/players/F/Frank_Kerr.html
Some data on Kerr

The Age of 3 April 1916 lists Kerr of University in one of its service teams:

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article155084217
By this time Frank Kerr was in Europe fighting and had won a medal.It is also recorded that after the war he remained in England so there is some question as to whether that Kerr is Frank Kerr.

Eric Kerr does not have an embarkation date but was killed in action in 1917.
 

35Daicos

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1911 rd. 12 - Alan Tait looks to have played for University against Richmond. The Age, The Argus and The Australasian give him quite a good mention so it looks almost certain that he played. He's not in the official lineup, his one and only career game supposedly came in rd. 16 that year.

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/196219872
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/11598473/365009
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/142947121

http://afltables.com/afl/stats/games/1911/141719110708.html
http://afltables.com/afl/stats/players/A/Alan_Tait.html

As for whose place in the official team he would have to take, no idea at this stage! Tait (Tate) is mentioned by The Age as an out the following week.
=============================================================
Rd. 13 - Greenham is not in the official lineup for University against Carlton. The Age, The Argus and The Australasian all give him quite a good mention so it looks almost certain that he played.

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/196208084
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/11600354
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/page/15073320

http://afltables.com/afl/stats/games/1911/031719110715.html

And again, not sure as to whose spot he should take.
 
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royals1922

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1911 rd. 12 - Alan Tait looks to have played for University against Richmond. The Age, The Argus and The Australasian give him quite a good mention so it looks almost certain that he played. He's not in the official lineup, his one and only career game supposedly came in rd. 16 that year.

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/196219872
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/11598473/365009
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/142947121

http://afltables.com/afl/stats/games/1911/141719110708.html
http://afltables.com/afl/stats/players/A/Alan_Tait.html

As for whose place in the official team he would have to take, no idea at this stage! Tait (Tate) is mentioned by The Age as an out the following week.
=============================================================
Rd. 13 - Greenham is not in the official lineup for University against Carlton. The Age, The Argus and The Australasian all give him quite a good mention so it looks almost certain that he played.

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/196208084
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/11600354
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/page/15073320

http://afltables.com/afl/stats/games/1911/031719110715.html

And again, not sure as to whose spot he should take.
Here is his lead up game. the age of 6 July 1911

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article196220243

He scored 4 goals.

Where is the evidence Tait played at all in round 16 against Collingwood. Is the answer simply that he played in round 11 but didn't play in round 16 ( a lot didn't because of exams). The elephant in the room of course is if this is correct, who didn't play in round 11 but played in round 16....
 

35Daicos

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Where is the evidence Tait played at all in round 16 against Collingwood. Is the answer simply that he played in round 11 but didn't play in round 16 ( a lot didn't because of exams). The elephant in the room of course is if this is correct, who didn't play in round 11 but played in round 16....
I didn't see him get a mention at all for the rd. 16 game. University lost by 89 points and were goalless, so probably not much to say about any of them. That was meant to be his one and only game. Interesting to see whether he ends up being credited with a career tally of 2, but he certainly looks to have made his debut in rd. 11.
 

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rbartlett

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Guernsey number alterations.
(I've sent this to Paul AFL Tables, and emailed Stephen Rodgers)

From The Age newspaper dated May 24 1965 regarding Rd 6 match Hawthorn vs Footscray.
https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=MDQ-9Oe3GGUC&dat=19650524&printsec=frontpage&hl=en
http://afltables.com/afl/stats/games/1965/071019650522.html

Guernsey number changes for Hawthorn for this game.:

Peter O'Shea number 41.

John Price number 10 (the article says he normally wears No.47 - and looking at the football record for his first game and his 4th game it does show number 47, so looks like you'll need to put No.10 for his first game, and then No. 47 for his next 3 games).

Don Roach wore his usual No. 16 to start the game, but it got damaged and he had to keep playing with No. 36

John Ticknell wore his usual No. 2 to start the game , but it got torn off and he had to keep playing with No. 38 . ( I suspect John returned to No.2 for remainder of 1965 matches. I would therefore scrap the No.31 that is beside his name on your page. )

John Peck wore his usual No. 23 , but it came off, and as he was folding his jumper and his number, the ball came towards so he contested the ball whilst holding his jumper and number in his hand.
When he came off to get a new jumper and came back on the field he was given jumper 31.
As such, he also wore two numbers that day.
 
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35Daicos

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http://afltables.com/afl/stats/games/1902/030519020531.html

The official lineup for Essendon in the 1902 rd. 5 game against Carlton may not be correct. The Herald from that evening has J. Kennedy (as well as E. Kennedy) in the team, in place of Kinnear:- https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=hec7AAAAIBAJ&sjid=OCsMAAAAIBAJ&pg=653,34637553

The Herald from the following Friday says "Kinnear, Hiskens and Anderson will take the field with the Red and Black against Collingwood."
https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=EVKlETVVbN8C&dat=19020606&printsec=frontpage&hl=en

Only Kennedy is mentioned in The Argus and The Age match reports which is not helpful, but no mention of Kinnear either.

The Australasian match report mentions E. Kennedy, nothing is said about Kinnear. It names a lot of players who were "away" that day, and Kinnear isn't among them, which would seem strange if he wasn't playing as he played 17 games that year. http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/139759620

Jim Kennedy (the brother of Ted) played 3 games for Essendon in 1901, before reappearing a few years later with Carlton. I'm not at all convinced but it looks reasonably likely that he played at least this one game with Essendon in 1902. http://afltables.com/afl/stats/players/J/Jim_Kennedy0.html
 

1892

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Interesting reference to I think George King in the referee of 25 October 1916 where a reference was made to Clifton player Bob King, father of promising Fitzroy back King

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article121177337

Also a good background of the creation of Collingwood football club....
Interesting info re Collingwood, it's the first time I've heard of Clifton being involved in the formation. Might be another one of these inaccuracies though?

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/66900473 has Clifton still playing in 1892 whereas Britannia had already dissolved and Collingwood was running around in the VFA.
 

royals1922

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Interesting info re Collingwood, it's the first time I've heard of Clifton being involved in the formation. Might be another one of these inaccuracies though?

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/66900473 has Clifton still playing in 1892 whereas Britannia had already dissolved and Collingwood was running around in the VFA.
The article of the Referee is correct in at least some details.

A combined junior side did play Carlton in 1891(cf the Australasian of 14 April 1891

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article140171956

which they won easily

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article8634581

and Clifton is reported to have disbanded at lest by 1893 and a new collingwood juniors club created

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article59755762

And again a merger of sorts between Britannia and Clifton is inferred in this 1917 article:

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article120295974

And here again in 1916:

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article121174237
 

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