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Resource List thread - Inaccuracy in official records

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On another note, I see that royals1922 is no longer with us, in a BigFooty sense, at least. I don't know what happened there, he was very enthusiastic when it came to investigating these matters, he seemed to be quite at home here, so it's rather sad that he won't be contributing further.
 
35Daicos said:
Sadly, I still haven't heard anything from the AFL History/Statistics folks regarding this, it would be nice to have confirmation of the changes to the records that were made. I see from AFL Tables that the Richmond related changes have been made, otherwise, not sure what's happened!

Ideally, the AFL people would be keeping an eye on this thread and investigate matters of interest, presumably that hasn't happened. I certainly haven't reported (to them) any of the more recent revelations that have come along.

http://afltables.com/afl/changes.html

Recent additions/changes/corrections

February, 2016
10th: Changes to Richmond lineups 1916. Rd 5, Thorp in for Collopy; Rd 6, Bettles in for Stewart; Rd 8, Collopy in for Burns; thanks Rhett B.
Click to expand...
Rhett B is Rhett Bartlett, he is the son of KB and Richmond historian. He, and Andrew Gigacz who runs Australian Football is contactable via Twitter or their websites for updates/corrections and are in touch with Col Hutchinson and the AFL Stats guys.
I updated the Bobadil Wikipedia page the other day, but have no official AFL contacts.
Of course anyone can update Wikipedia, but if you have any problems, let me know, I might be able to help. I'm The-Pope on Wikipedia. Strictly, you can't update Wikipedia based on your own research (see their policies on original research and synthesis), it has to be published by others, so getting any of the AFL, AFL Tables and/or AustralianFootball on board is essential, or at least the single club history sites like Blueseum, DemonWiki or Rhett's tiger history site.

Also, recently a user called Terlob completed making stub Wikipedia articles for every AFL/VFL players. So if there are any "fake name" or duplicate players, we can combine them (merge/redirect) if needed.

Very interesting stuff here. Well done to all.
 
ThePope said:
Rhett B is Rhett Bartlett, he is the son of KB and Richmond historian. He, and Andrew Gigacz who runs Australian Football is contactable via Twitter or their websites for updates/corrections and are in touch with Col Hutchinson and the AFL Stats guys.
I updated the Bobadil Wikipedia page the other day, but have no official AFL contacts.
Of course anyone can update Wikipedia, but if you have any problems, let me know, I might be able to help. I'm The-Pope on Wikipedia. Strictly, you can't update Wikipedia based on your own research (see their policies on original research and synthesis), it has to be published by others, so getting any of the AFL, AFL Tables and/or AustralianFootball on board is essential, or at least the single club history sites like Blueseum, DemonWiki or Rhett's tiger history site.

Also, recently a user called Terlob completed making stub Wikipedia articles for every AFL/VFL players. So if there are any "fake name" or duplicate players, we can combine them (merge/redirect) if needed.

Very interesting stuff here. Well done to all.
Click to expand...
Thanks a lot for that.

Rhett Bartlett, a couple (at least) of the Australian Football website folks, and the people behind AFL Tables and Demonwiki post on this board and/or Football Statistics, so getting in touch with them is not an issue. I don't know that there's anyone from Blueseum who posts here.

I'm not sure how much of the thread you have looked at, but my post (the one you quoted) was a bit of a follow up to a question posed a while back about what was happening regarding (AFL) clarification of possible lineup changes to some games from the earlier years. As you would probably have seen, a few of the regular posters in this thread do plenty of investigating into such matters, I have sent the occasional email to the AFL Statistics people alerting them to what has been uncovered. They invariably get back to me quickly enough, then let me know what (if any) changes have been made to the official records. I post any news here and on the Stats board, and let some other "interested parties" know, usually by passing on a copy of the email from the AFL.

This time around I haven't received clarification of any official changes that were made for whatever reason (I think those games may have all been from 1916), even though it was said to be on it's way. I'm pretty sure Rhett discussed the Richmond issues with the AFL and was at least able to let people here (and AFL Tables, obviously) know what they had come up with, but there were a fair few other players who had to be sorted out as well. Also, I'm not sure whether the team lineup issues raised on page 9 of this thread have even been looked at, I was told at the time it could be a while before that happened.

So again, my post was just to say that I still hadn't received the long awaited official confirmation of any changes that had been made.

I'd really like to see the AFL Statistics and History people have a web page where official changes to such things as team lineups, players' DoB and names are shown. Occasionally something like the Con Molan and Claude Clough stories become known to the public, there must be many other changes made that people don't get to find out about.
 

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35Daicos said:
Thanks a lot for that.

Rhett Bartlett, a couple (at least) of the Australian Football website folks, and the people behind AFL Tables and Demonwiki post on this board and/or Football Statistics, so getting in touch with them is not an issue. I don't know that there's anyone from Blueseum who posts here.

I'm not sure how much of the thread you have looked at, but my post (the one you quoted) was a bit of a follow up to a question posed a while back about what was happening regarding (AFL) clarification of possible lineup changes to some games from the earlier years. As you would probably have seen, a few of the regular posters in this thread do plenty of investigating into such matters, I have sent the occasional email to the AFL Statistics people alerting them to what has been uncovered. They invariably get back to me quickly enough, then let me know what (if any) changes have been made to the official records. I post any news here and on the Stats board, and let some other "interested parties" know, usually by passing on a copy of the email from the AFL.

This time around I haven't received clarification of any official changes that were made for whatever reason (I think those games may have all been from 1916), even though it was said to be on it's way. I'm pretty sure Rhett discussed the Richmond issues with the AFL and was at least able to let people here (and AFL Tables, obviously) know what they had come up with, but there were a fair few other players who had to be sorted out as well. Also, I'm not sure whether the team lineup issues raised on page 9 of this thread have even been looked at, I was told at the time it could be a while before that happened.

So again, my post was just to say that I still hadn't received the long awaited official confirmation of any changes that had been made.

I'd really like to see the AFL Statistics and History people have a web page where official changes to such things as team lineups, players' DoB and names are shown. Occasionally something like the Con Molan and Claude Clough stories become known to the public, there must be many other changes made that people don't get to find out about.
Click to expand...

Yes, I agree. An official website highlighting such changes would be very valuable, but I don't think the present staff will allow it - too many "errors" or "double-standards" are being found and they'll want to avoid proper scrutiny.

Jack Titus consec games tally for example is one figure which changed a few years ago from 204 to the correct figure of 202. Seems that many years ago those compiling that total mis-read the 1942 & 1943 seasons and counted how many rounds there were instead of how many games Richmond actually played. With less teams playing there was a bye introduced those years so while there were 16 rounds, Richmond only 15 games each year.
 
Cannot see that Norman Brookes (tennis champion early 20th c) has been mentioned in this thread before.

He has been listed for many years as playing two games for St Kilda in 1898 (18 June v Carlton, 25 June v Melbourne)
but I am practically certain his name should be removed altogether from the list of VFL/AFL players.

An interview with him is published in The Age issue of 14 October 1959
https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=Cv8SAAAAIBAJ&sjid=f7YDAAAAIBAJ&pg=6537,2154966
It confirms that he played football at Melbourne Grammar, but not necessarily later at adult senior level.
Brookes also refers to his father sending him to Britain to live in Edinburgh in 1898.

The Ancestry website has some ship passenger lists loaded on it for researchers. In April 1898 the P&O liner "Australia" called in at Albany on the way to London. Among the passengers are Mr N Brookes and a Miss Brookes. Norman's sister May died in England in the 1930s and obits comment that she had lived overseas for many years with infrequent visits back home to Melbourne.

The Edinburgh Evening News issue of 24 June 1898 includes a team list for the Australasians Cricket Club to play Perthshire.
Among the names is N Brookes.

The Ancestry site also includes a passenger list for the ship "Rome" which arrived in Melbourne on about 28 December 1898 having left London on about 16 November. On board are a Mr Brookes and a Miss Brookes.

I also note that newspaper reports in 1898 print the player's name for St Kilda as Brooks (not Brookes).
 
the croucher said:
Cannot see that Norman Brookes (tennis champion early 20th c) has been mentioned in this thread before.

He has been listed for many years as playing two games for St Kilda in 1898 (18 June v Carlton, 25 June v Melbourne)
but I am practically certain his name should be removed altogether from the list of VFL/AFL players.

An interview with him is published in The Age issue of 14 October 1959
https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=Cv8SAAAAIBAJ&sjid=f7YDAAAAIBAJ&pg=6537,2154966
It confirms that he played football at Melbourne Grammar, but not necessarily later at adult senior level.
Brookes also refers to his father sending him to Britain to live in Edinburgh in 1898.

The Ancestry website has some ship passenger lists loaded on it for researchers. In April 1898 the P&O liner "Australia" called in at Albany on the way to London. Among the passengers are Mr N Brookes and a Miss Brookes. Norman's sister May died in England in the 1930s and obits comment that she had lived overseas for many years with infrequent visits back home to Melbourne.

The Edinburgh Evening News issue of 24 June 1898 includes a team list for the Australasians Cricket Club to play Perthshire.
Among the names is N Brookes.

The Ancestry site also includes a passenger list for the ship "Rome" which arrived in Melbourne on about 28 December 1898 having left London on about 16 November. On board are a Mr Brookes and a Miss Brookes.

I also note that newspaper reports in 1898 print the player's name for St Kilda as Brooks (not Brookes).
Click to expand...
The 1959 article from The Age makes it very clear that Brookes wasn't interested in continuing to play football after his younger days, even though he was actively pursued by a VFL club. He played cricket for St Kilda but not football.

Brooks is mentioned in Table Talk as having kicked 2 goals vs. Carlton in round 7, 1898, and is shown on the list of leading goalkickers for the season (with 2 goals):- http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/page/17399954

I've not seen Brookes mentioned anywhere else in 1898 newspapers, I've checked The Age, The Argus, The Australasian, Prahran Chronicle and Prahran Telegraph. Given that the Carlton game was meant to be Brookes' debut (and he's credited with scoring 2 goals) he should have at least been spoken about, but wasn't.

The Argus issue of Monday 27 June 1898 says in the match report on the Melbourne vs. St Kilda game "The St. Kilda wing men excelled, but Lewis beat Beggs in the centre." Billy Beggs is not named in the "official lineup", but was in the team earlier that year. I can't find Beggs' name in any of the other papers in relation to the round 8 clash, but there must be some chance that he played instead of Brookes.

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/9839815
http://afltables.com/afl/stats/games/1898/111518980625.html

Edit: The Herald has the St Kilda squad for the rd. 8 game in the Friday June 24 issue. Begg is named, Brookes isn't.

https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=EVKlETVVbN8C&dat=18980624&printsec=frontpage&hl=en (page 3)
 
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not sure if this belongs in this thread or not so apologies in advance.

lions.com.au, afltables.com and the football record (Sep 26, 1987) all have 41 players having played for the Brisbane Bears during their inaugural 1987 season.

afltables.com is the only source i can find that has their jumper numbers, does anybody know what the go is with the following numbers?

Jumper 4 - 19 games by Geoff Raines. however Craig Evans is also listed with this number for 2 games, maybe he should have been 14 which is vacant?

Jumper 6 - 6 games from Dale Dickson and 1 from Darryl Cox.
 
35Daicos I can only speak for the Richmond 1916 players that were initially raised (by Rob I think?).
Stephen Rogers contacted me saying he agreed that the changes should be made, and wanted me to double check the Richmond records, which I did. I agreed with the changes, and as such the changes took affect around December 2015.
(Stephen believes it was a translation error from the original sheets).

Furthermore, a change has been made to Jack Dyer's coaching record.
I indicated to Stephen that it appears Dyer was reported for 4 weeks , and as such was also ineligible to captain coach 4 matches in 1944. Stephen and Col looked into this and have confirmed it.
As such, Dyer loses Rd 12 - Rd 15 1944 inclusive as coach, and they go to Dick Harris.
 
rbartlett said:
35Daicos I can only speak for the Richmond 1916 players that were initially raised (by Rob I think?).
Stephen Rogers contacted me saying he agreed that the changes should be made, and wanted me to double check the Richmond records, which I did. I agreed with the changes, and as such the changes took affect around December 2015.
(Stephen believes it was a translation error from the original sheets).
Click to expand...
Ok, thanks for that. My name's Rob so I'm fairly sure that I'm the Rob referred to there!
 
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JA27 said:
not sure if this belongs in this thread or not so apologies in advance.

lions.com.au, afltables.com and the football record (Sep 26, 1987) all have 41 players having played for the Brisbane Bears during their inaugural 1987 season.

afltables.com is the only source i can find that has their jumper numbers, does anybody know what the go is with the following numbers?

Jumper 4 - 19 games by Geoff Raines. however Craig Evans is also listed with this number for 2 games, maybe he should have been 14 which is vacant?

Jumper 6 - 6 games from Dale Dickson and 1 from Darryl Cox.
Click to expand...
The Club Player Lists - Brisbane 1987 page from the AFL Historical Statistics website shows Evans and Raines with no. 4, Cox and Dickson with no. 6. The Footy Works program shows exactly the same, however like AFL Tables, I imagine they copied what the AFL site had. The VFL Year Book 1987 shows the playing list, but not the guernsey numbers.

Cox and Dickson at least never played in the same game for the Bears, though it would be strange if after Dickson wore 6 in rd. 1 Cox had the same no. in rd. 2 in his one and only game, then Dickson was back in 6 when he returned to the side later in the year. Evans and Raines very obviously couldn't have both been wearing no. 4 when they played together in rounds 12 & 13.

Your theory about no. 14 is probably a good one. They surely wouldn't have moved Raines from his regular number for a couple of games. Chris Waterson can be seen wearing no. 14 in pre-season matches, but he ended up in 17. Finding footage on YouTube of 1987 Brisbane round 2, 12 and 13 games would be ideal, but I can't spot them. The Football Record is of no use either.

Dickson can be seen wearing no. 6 in the rd. 1 game BTW.

This doesn't reveal anything different:- http://www.lions.com.au/staticfile/AFL Tenant/BrisbaneLions/Links/PDF/Guernsey Numbers History (Web DEC 2013).pdf
 
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Allan Shorty said:
The 40 is vacant too right?
Click to expand...
Yes. Also 42, 43, 45, 46, 47 and 48 weren't used in League matches that year either!

Edit:- Since he wore #43 in his 9 senior games for Geelong the year before there's a fair chance Evans may have stuck with that number at Brisbane. I have now seen a bit of footage from the rd. 12 game and Raines is in no. 4, of course.

Someone obviously made an error with this many years ago, it seems incredible that it hasn't been sorted out by now.
 
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35Daicos said:
The 1959 article from The Age makes it very clear that Brookes wasn't interested in continuing to play football after his younger days, even though he was actively pursued by a VFL club. He played cricket for St Kilda but not football.

Brooks is mentioned in Table Talk as having kicked 2 goals vs. Carlton in round 7, 1898, and is shown on the list of leading goalkickers for the season (with 2 goals):- http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/page/17399954

I've not seen Brookes mentioned anywhere else in 1898 newspapers, I've checked The Age, The Argus, The Australasian, Prahran Chronicle and Prahran Telegraph. Given that the Carlton game was meant to be Brookes' debut (and he's credited with scoring 2 goals) he should have at least been spoken about, but wasn't.

The Argus issue of Monday 27 June 1898 says in the match report on the Melbourne vs. St Kilda game "The St. Kilda wing men excelled, but Lewis beat Beggs in the centre." Billy Beggs is not named in the "official lineup", but was in the team earlier that year. I can't find Beggs' name in any of the other papers in relation to the round 8 clash, but there must be some chance that he played instead of Brookes.

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/9839815
http://afltables.com/afl/stats/games/1898/111518980625.html

Edit: The Herald has the St Kilda squad for the rd. 8 game in the Friday June 24 issue. Begg is named, Brookes isn't.

https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=EVKlETVVbN8C&dat=18980624&printsec=frontpage&hl=en (page 3)
Click to expand...

Well done with that research a few days ago. Hopefully the revamped Trove newspapers site is up and running again by tonight, maybe even earlier in the day with any luck.

It is clear from what you have found so far that Brooks/Brookes may have only played one game that year, and that Billy Beggs may have an extra game added to his career record. We'll have to wait and see.
 
WhiteHartLane23 said:
Another name inaccuracy for an early Carlton player.
"Bobadil" Hooper played 14 games for Carlton in 1899.

All sites/records that I can see refer to him as being named Bobadil (Wikipedia, Blueseum) - or even Robert/Bob (AustralianFootball)

However, reports in 1899 always seem to refer to "Bobadil" as a nickname (1, 2, 3, 4, 5)
Given the meaning/derivation of Bobadil it is unlikely this is his actual given name!

A photo of him in Punch refers to him as J. Hooper

A search on Ancestry turned up:
Birth Record
Name: John William Hooper
Birth Date: 1878
Birth Place: Carlton, Victoria
Registration Year: 1878
Registration Number: 7277
Parents: John William Hooper, Rebecca Friezer

Death Record
Name Jno Hooper
Birth Year: abt 1877
Age: 51
Death Place: Northcote, Victoria
Father's Name: Jno Hooper
Mother's Name: Rebecca
Registration Year: 1928

which matches the birth/death dates in official records. John William lived in Carlton area for most of his life.

Almost certainly the player in question...
Click to expand...

Thanks for this WhiteHartLane23 great research.

I have updated the profile page in question.

http://www.blueseum.org/John+Hooper
 
35Daicos said:
Thanks a lot for that.

Rhett Bartlett, a couple (at least) of the Australian Football website folks, and the people behind AFL Tables and Demonwiki post on this board and/or Football Statistics, so getting in touch with them is not an issue. I don't know that there's anyone from Blueseum who posts here.
Click to expand...

I'm around, but I log in quite rarely to bigfooty.

We quite often get changes to names and birthdates for past players that are sent to us, mainly from descendants.

Whenever I get solid information for a change I send it to a colleague who works with Col Hutchison, who updates the official AFL records.
 
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the croucher said:
Another mix-up with numbers…

Rnd 8 1942 - for Essendon v Hawthorn
http://afltables.com/afl/stats/games/1942/051019420627.html
Chris Lambert & Ted Leehane both shown as wearing jumper 14

Rnd 14 1988 - for St Kilda in match v Brisbane
http://afltables.com/afl/stats/games/1988/021519880703.html#p1
Kain Taylor & Ian Muller both shown as wearing jumper 26.
Click to expand...
http://afltables.com/afl/stats/1942.html
A look here ^ (sort on # for each club, of course) suggests there were lots of players who "shared" numbers in 1942, there must be a fair few clashes to be found there I'd say. e.g. for Richmond in the Grand Final, there's Burge and Martin (both in 8) and Guinane and Merrett (22).
http://afltables.com/afl/stats/games/1942/051419420919.html

In 1942 there would have presumably been a lot of players coming and going so the numbers probably were shared by players (obviously not on the same day, however!). Supposedly 4 of them wore 8 for the Tigers that year.

http://afltables.com/afl/stats/1988.html
From 1988, Peter Baxter and Hannebery are meant to have worn 26 for Footscray that year, Eustice and Palm no. 6 for Richmond.

According to the Encyclopedia of AFL Footballers, Muller is said to have worn 25 for St Kilda, Taylor 26. The AFL Historical Statistics site club player lists page had both in 26 for 1988.

I've only had a brief look (happy hour is about to start at my local pub!) but Eustice and Palm (both in 6) played the rd. 3 game:-
http://afltables.com/afl/stats/games/1988/041419880416.html
 
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35Daicos said:
http://afltables.com/afl/stats/1942.html
A look here ^ (sort on # for each club, of course) suggests there were lots of players who "shared" numbers in 1942, there must be a fair few clashes to be found there I'd say. e.g. for Richmond in the Grand Final, there's Burge and Martin (both in 8) and Guinane and Merrett (22).
http://afltables.com/afl/stats/games/1942/051419420919.html

In 1942 there would have presumably been a lot of players coming and going so the numbers probably were shared by players (obviously not on the same day, however!). Supposedly 4 of them wore 8 for the Tigers that year.
Click to expand...

Guernsey numbers are my next big project down the track for Richmond history.
However in the meantime, I have Fred Burge wearing No.8 in 1942 Grand Final, and Des Martin wearing No. 10 in 1942 Grand Final.
 

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JA27 said:
1987 Brisbane Bears

Jumper 4 - 19 games by Geoff Raines. however Craig Evans is also listed with this number for 2 games, maybe he should have been 14 which is vacant?
Click to expand...
Allan Shorty said:
The 40 is vacant too right?
Click to expand...

I think you might be closer to the mark than my initial suggestion of 14,

Despite not playing for the Bears until 1989, the number 1 draft pick from 1986 Martin Leslie wore 14 when he finally did move north so may have allocated this number all along.

The same may be the case for 23 with that player not managing a game till 1988.
 
RedmanWasHere said:
With players wearing the same number in the same season, wouldn't it be because some players switched clubs mid-season?
Click to expand...

Yes, true in some cases perhaps, although I haven't actually looked for an example of that.

Many cases though, there are errors in the records.
Take Graeme Cook (Footscray) for example.
http://afltables.com/afl/stats/players/G/Graeme_Cook1.html

In 1970 he played seven games and is supposed to have worn #10.
In six of those games, Gordon Casey also plays - and he is also listed as wearing #10.
 
the croucher said:
Yes, true in some cases perhaps, although I haven't actually looked for an example of that.

Many cases though, there are errors in the records.
Take Graeme Cook (Footscray) for example.
http://afltables.com/afl/stats/players/G/Graeme_Cook1.html

In 1970 he played seven games and is supposed to have worn #10.
In six of those games, Gordon Casey also plays - and he is also listed as wearing #10.
Click to expand...


That's a bit stupid having players with the same number in the same game.

Someone needs to nut that out and rectify it.
 
Not sure if this is the right thread for my question and am happy to have this post moved but does anyone have the full results of the 1977, '78, '79, 1983, '84, '85 and '86 pre-season games as well as 1981?
 

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