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Resource List thread - Inaccuracy in official records

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rbartlett said:
Can I ask, is one of the BigFooty researchers able to designate themselves as the Wikipedia updater ?
Its going to work better if we have just one person who is the one who updates the changes when the AFL etc agree to our changes.
For instance, AFL confirms Archie Richardson no longer played for StKilda, but was Richond VFA player 1902-1904, yet Richardson's wiki still covers his StKilda years. So that needs to be update with obviously a paragraph about the change and research.
And plus one needs to be created for William Kendall Richardson.

I've put them on the spreadsheet as their changes now caused the creation of further entries regarding who the missing Richardsons are
https://www.dropbox.com/s/f9uskpqcjckgn2m/Inaccuracies in Australian Football League data.xlsx?dl=0
Click to expand...
I'm happy to do this - I've done a fair bit of it already and The Pope is also quite active on wikipedia.

Wiki policy requires a citable source in order to change content so its usually preferable to get australianfootball.com and AFL Tables to change first - I'm happy to push changes through those sites as well where needed.
 
WhiteHartLane23 said:
I'm happy to do this - I've done a fair bit of it already and The Pope is also quite active on wikipedia.

Wiki policy requires a citable source in order to change content so its usually preferable to get australianfootball.com and AFL Tables to change first - I'm happy to push changes through those sites as well where needed.
Click to expand...

Thanks for your work and putting your hand up WHL.
Can I leave you to organise the Richardsons edits then for AFLTables.
Side note: I sent the spreadsheet link to Paul at AFLTables, Coll historians, Carlton historians, Gigs, Blueseum as well
 
These are the 2005 Rising Star Award votes from AFL Record Finals Week 1 2005 (page 15):

upload_2018-9-20_19-51-19.png
The votes are the same in the 2006 Season Guide (page 22). However, the Season Guide's (2018 and other years) Rising Star section omits Jordan Lewis' 3 votes. I have let Michael Lovett know about this so next year's edition should have the correction. Wikipedia has it wrong as well, so it would be good if that could be fixed. Also, this page on AustralianFootball.com leaves Lewis' votes off. australianfootball
 
WhiteHartLane23 said:
I'm happy to do this - I've done a fair bit of it already and The Pope is also quite active on wikipedia.

Wiki policy requires a citable source in order to change content so its usually preferable to get australianfootball.com and AFL Tables to change first - I'm happy to push changes through those sites as well where needed.
Click to expand...
I'm happy to do what I can, but often when I see a confimation here, WHL has already updated it! But as he said, there is a specific policy against updating Wikipedia based on original research, which is what we are doing here. You could argue that getting the AFL to tick off on it provides some verification, but it really does need to be published elsewhere first - and not just on this forum. But please feel free to hit me up here or on twitter if you want anything updated, or have any issues on wikipedia.
 

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Response received from AFL Rogers regarding our early September submissions.
His response below. The bold section as what I have added in this post.
Good news all round it seems. It seems he has had a change of heart for William Woods. See below.

So changes will need to be made to some BFdobdod posts/ wikis/afltables/etc etc. Those who have that responsibility do your thing.
I'll update the online spreadsheet in 24-48hrs.

Hi Rhett .....
So, the genealogical section of the Library - in a new location - is open again finally; went there over the weekend.

John "Jack" Llewellen Matthews *RESOLVED*
- Matthews/Mathews
that's all resolved now, with an exact date-of-death.
Perhaps the easiest, is to send you a copy of my email to Barb Cullen.
It follows this.
(where I mention, at the end -
about the possibility of Robert, and John Lewellen, being brothers;
it turned out that they weren't.)

Extract from email to Barb Cullen below

Hi Barb,

I'm writing to you about -
John Lewellen Mathews.

Note the spelling -
confirmed that it's Mathews with a single t. Not Matthews with a double t. The latter, is how he has always been in our records.
Now we've been able to amend it.

He is the North Melbourne player of 1941 with 3 games and 1 goal.
It was discovered that he was in the Mersey Vale Cemetery in Devonport, Tasmania.
Through them, I was able to contact the daughter (name and ph number withheld)
(if you want to make further contact with her).
I actually just had text messages with her.
The good thing, was that she was able to confirm a date of death of
25 October 1994.

Tom Wellington b:27/10/1894, Melb 1912-13 *RESOLVED*​

- Wellington.
In your notes, it noted:
dying July 25 1955.
However it also said,
Interred on 25/7/1955.

I thought something wasn't quite right there, so checking the SA Card Index, for Deaths 1916 to '72,
it turns out that the actual date-of-death was 17/7/1955.

I've gone with this;
reading all your arguments put forward in the text, I tend to agree this has to be the Tom Wellington who was the Melb player.

William "Bill" Henry Woods , b:21/8/1890 Geelong 1909 *RESPONSE REQUIRED FROM BF GUYS*​

- Woods.
Just further on what I said a few days ago, I had another look;
and I'd say that wasn't quite right, about William
born 1890 at East Bellarine (Portarlington), (who turned out to be your "Little Bill") having a family connection to Ike.

Ike as we know, was
Isaac Henry
born 1879 at Geelong to parents:
Isaac/Emma Lewis.

If we take it as a given that William Henry, player of 1909, was the half-brother of Ike -
and Col says this IS the case -
then the 1890 born at South Melbourne does in fact seem to be the man; with parents:
unknown/Emma Woods -
this Emma Woods, being Emma Lewis of the Ike parentage.

Can you tell your guys this;
it does seem this chap, is the right person.
Hopefully his death will still turn up somewhere!

RHODA MCDONALD *RESPONSE REQUIRED FROM BF GUYS*​

- Rhoda McDonald.
Have your guys had a chance to contemplate yet, what I said a few days ago please?
Basically, if you guys are of the opinion that Robert/Richard is the same man, we'll go with the
4/12/37 date-of-death.

REGINALD HORACE LYONS ​
- Lyons
Should get the birth details of the "new" Horrie Lyons very soon.

WALTER JOHNSTON - that new Richmond player of 1908.
Rodgers a couple of weeks ago wrote this about Johnston's WW2 service and death​

- so, on to WW2, and this is the sticky part.
Yes, there's no doubt he's there, as No. V5088.
(and - wow! - making himself 12 years younger, in enlisting!! ;
we've had endless cases, like that! - but maybe 12 years is close to
"the record" - haha)
But the problem is, if you look at his WW2 Nominal Roll record,
you see a date of death!
I know it's after the date of discharge, 29/6/43 compared to 18/7/46.

But, have a look at Harold Zucker of Hawthorn.
26/11/45 compared to 7/6/47.
In notes for him, years ago, I noted:
died 7/6/47 of lung cancer. Has a WW2 Roll-of-honour card at the Library.
Cause-of-death on card: illness. Even though date-of-death was after discharge,
the fact he has a roll-of-honour card, means we have to record his death as OAS.

So Rodgers went to the State Library to search for Walter Johnston's roll-of-honour card
and found one, and therefore believes his death to be OAS And hence is classified as a War death

- finally Walter Johnston
as you advised, I still haven't mentioned this to Col, Barb -
or in fact anyone.
At the Library, as I feared! -
he does have a WW2
Roll-of-Honour Card.
See photo (at end).
As far as I can see, there is no
Cause of Death, entered in,
on the card.
I'll put this one back in your court, for the time being.
I presume this aspect will need to be in your submission to the Richmond historical committee.
I'll just keep it on ice, until you advise me further.
 
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Btw I've gone completely cuckoo trying to get my head around Rhoda McDonald and his place in Richmond's history.

On prev BF posts we've agreed him to be Richmond VFA 1902-1907 right? and we ended up agreeing he was also the Richmond VFL 1908 player , right?

But we said he then went to Footscray and this 1911 clearance has him as E.A.McDonald. http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article196206912

And, then there's a separate 1903 Richmond VFA player called E. McDonald. Right?

Or have I got that completely around the wrong way and we only think Rhoda McDonald was with Richmond for 1903 season?

If we agreed that Rhoda McDonald played for Coll, then Carl, then Richmond 1902-1908, then the current player record for the Richmond 1908 VFL player - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernie_McDonald is wrong, and needs to be https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhoda_McDonald.
Have I got that right ? Or I've got my wires crossed.
 
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rbartlett said:
Response received from AFL Rogers regarding our early September submissions.
His response below. The bold section as what I have added in this post.
Good news all round it seems. It seems he has had a change of heart for William Woods. See below.

<snip>

William "Bill" Henry Woods , b:21/8/1890 Geelong 1909 *RESPONSE REQUIRED FROM BF GUYS*​

- Woods.
Just further on what I said a few days ago, I had another look;
and I'd say that wasn't quite right, about William
born 1890 at East Bellarine (Portarlington), (who turned out to be your "Little Bill") having a family connection to Ike.

Ike as we know, was
Isaac Henry
born 1879 at Geelong to parents:
Isaac/Emma Lewis.

If we take it as a given that William Henry, player of 1909, was the half-brother of Ike -
and Col says this IS the case -
then the 1890 born at South Melbourne does in fact seem to be the man; with parents:
unknown/Emma Woods -
this Emma Woods, being Emma Lewis of the Ike parentage.

Can you tell your guys this;
it does seem this chap, is the right person.
Hopefully his death will still turn up somewhere!
<snip>
Click to expand...

No. I do not accept that the 1890 William Henry Woods (b South Melbourne) is the correct person.
His Vic BDMs entry states that father: unknown, mother: Emma Woods. There is no reference to her maiden name being Lewis.

Here below is the range of information I have found so far relating to Isaac Woods as father and Emma Lewis & Annie Galvin as mothers of various children. Note that practically all the entries have registration district as Geelong.

Teresa Ellen Wood (b 1878, d 1878 aged 1 in Geelong), Isaac Henry Woods (b 1879, d 1962 aged 83 in Geelong), William Cross Wood (b 1881 d 1959 aged 78 in Geelong), Theresa Eileen Wood (b 1883, d 1885 aged 2 in Geelong), John Thomas Wood (b 1885, d 1891 aged 6 in Geelong), Hart May Wood (b 1891), Elizabeth Ward (father Isaac Henry Woodburgess - mother Emma Lewis - d 1965 aged 77 in Preston, listed as b in Geelong)

to Emma Lewis no father named; Emma Lewis (d 1876 aged 1 in Geelong)

Minnie Elizabeth Wood (father Isaac, mother Emma Lewis, d 1887 in Geelong aged 13, no place of birth shown)

Emma Woodburgess (nee Lewis) died in Geelong 1892 aged 36 - perhaps the AFL could scrape together the $24.50 for a copy of her death certificate [1892/10299] and see what number of children she is listed as having given birth to in her life (indeed, their names will probably be shown)

Isaac Henry Wood Burgess married Annie Galvin in 1896
3 x chn to that couple
(Alfred James Burgess b 1897 in Geelong, d 1950 aged 53 in Geelong East), (Minnie Ellen Burgess b 1900 in Geelong, d 1904 in Geelong [as Burgess Wood] ), (Thomas Arthur Bergess b 1904 in Geelong)

None of those children are old enough to have played for Geelong in 1909.

I suspect that the 1909 player [as he is full brother to "Ike" Woods] should be listed as William Cross Woods (b 1881).
Remember too that the handwritten player register showing William Henry Woods was written up many years after the events,
so with the player immediately above that entry also being a William Henry, I think accidental duplication of given names is a possibility.
 
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rbartlett said:
Btw I've gone completely cuckoo trying to get my head around Rhoda McDonald and his place in Richmond's history.

On prev BF posts we've agreed him to be Richmond VFA 1902-1907 right? and we ended up agreeing he was also the Richmond VFL 1908 player , right?

But we said he then went to Footscray and this 1911 clearance has him as E.A.McDonald. http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article196206912

And, then there's a separate 1903 Richmond VFA player called E. McDonald. Right?

Or have I got that completely around the wrong way and we only think Rhoda McDonald was with Richmond for 1903 season?

If we agreed that Rhoda McDonald played for Coll, then Carl, then Richmond 1902-1908, then the current player record for the Richmond 1908 VFL player - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernie_McDonald is wrong, and needs to be https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhoda_McDonald.
Have I got that right ? Or I've got my wires crossed.
Click to expand...

I asked Rogers to look into the 1908 Richmond 'McDonald' just to check the background and to see if Rhoda McDonald fits in to the Richmond VFA.
Atm we have E. McDonald 1902-1907 + possibly 1908, and a R McDonald 1903 only.

For the 1908 player Rogers writes :
"I have this man as:
Ernest Victor McDonald
height : 184
weight : 85.5
born - 26-1-1883
died - 30-9-1971
Richmond 1908 player
recruited from:
West Richmond (to Rich. - when in VFA - in 1901).
On the original hand-written Rich 1908 sheet (copied directly from R.H.Campbell's original records) -
he is just: E.McDonald.
There is nothing relevant, for a McDonald, in the clearance book, after:
R.E.McDonald Coll to Carl 29/5/1901
So, nothing to or from Rich."

So I feel that our E. McDonald from 1902-1907 VFA and the 1908 season is Ernest Victor McDonald. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernie_McDonald
Which means that the R. McDonald, who only played in 1903 *may be* Rhoda McDonald, or may simply be a different player.
But it does seems unlikely Rhoda is the 1908 player (which is what my initial query was)
 

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I spent some time last night hunting for the unknown "A. Richardson" who played for Leopold (1900), St Kilda (1901) and Perth (1904) - St Kilda games previously credited to Archie Richardson (Richmond 1902-1904)

Key football refs (all in previous posts):
1. 1900 Leopold photos: http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article139156982, http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article198176009
2. Ref to 1901 St Kilda player coming from Leopold: http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article198078594 (11 May 1901)
3. Permit from St Kilda to Western Australia http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article201647152 (The Age, 7 May 1904)

I looked at all A. Richardson's born in Victoria between 1875 and 1882 and searched for them in Ancestry and came up with one possible candidate.
He is living in the right areas at the right times and his obit states he was a footballer in his youth... but recognise this is not conclusive evidence.

Alfred George Richardson (1878 – 1951)
1878 Born in Geelong to William George Richardson and Elizabeth Medway
1903 Electoral Roll in Prahran – insurance clerk (sorry about the blurry image - this is how it appears on Ancestry)
upload_2018-9-30_12-57-30.png
1906 Electoral Roll in Subiaco – again insurance clerk
upload_2018-9-30_12-56-27.png
1906 Marries Edith Henrietta Grace Johnson in Subiaco
1912 Still in Perth electoral roll (now listed with Edith)
upload_2018-9-30_12-56-54.png
1 December 1951 dies in Hobart – see http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article27059052
“Mr. Richardson came to Hobart from Perth in 1912 to open a branch of the Victoria Insurance Co.“
“Mr. Richardson was a prominent member of the Derwent Bowling Club, secretary of a Masonic Lodge, and a keen footballer and tennis player in his youth.”

Queries for the board:
1) Is there any other evidence either for/against this guy as a candidate?
2) Is there enough here to put this up to the AFL for review?
 
Good research WHL - and for mind it does raise him a possible candidate.
Two things -

1.
Is it worth seeing if there are any descendants (thru Ancrestry), who may have a photo of Alfred George Richardson - and we could compare that to the 1900 Leopold player.

2.
Below is an extract for an email thread between Stephen Rogers at AFL and WAFL historian from April 2018. "The business" mentioned in it could logically include something to do with insurance. I notice also the WAFL historian seemingly stumbles across the Alfred George Richardson you are currently considering.

"Hi there Steve,
Thanks for that feedback and you do look to have quite an issue with those early St Kilda Richardsons! I really wish that I was able to shed more light on A Richardson after his Perth stint for you but sadly the trail goes very bare. The only other note I have on him says that after his last game against West Perth on June 25th he was away on business. That might suggest he was not a labourer but it could mean any one of a multitude of occupations! I certainly don't have any record of a transfer from Perth after 1904 and really very few other clues indeed as to what may have become of him. In looking at A Richardsons who were on the electoral roll in WA in 1906 but not in 1903 there was an Alfred George and an Alfred Ernest who were not around in 1903 but I have no idea if the Perth player stayed after 1904 or left so its all pretty much guesswork.

If I do get any more clues I will let you know mate but for now I am going to have to record him simply as A Richardson 6 games 1904. I probably have a good 500 or more WAFL players who are no more than a surname or surname and initial so look on the bright side - VFL records are well ahead of WAFL (and I dare say SANFL despite the great efforts of my late mate Mark Beswick).

All the best for now Steve.
Regards,
Greg Wardell-Johnson"
 
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Let's confirm this once and for all.
Is Richmond's 1932+1934 Premiership player ALLAN GEDDES, or ALAN GEDDES.
Trove brings up both variations across his history, AFLTables has ALLAN, TigerlandArchive has ALLAN, Wiki has ALAN, AustralianFootball has ALAN
 
GreyCrow said:
Vic BDM are consistent in Birth , Marriage and Death as Allan Edward
Click to expand...
ALLAN it is. I'll alert AustralianFootball - can our Wikipedia fixers do their thing please https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Geddes .
(Along with Archie Richardson as per #1751. I'm not sure if citing TigerlandArchive VFA players page is sufficient for Wiki to remove the StKilda reference )

EDIT: AustralianFootball is now updated https://australianfootball.com/players/player/allan+geddes/4412
 
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Morning gents. Have added the Dropbox link to the OP so we have it on us at all times. To whoever has sifted through the thread, I salute you. Does the spreadsheet include pretty much every case we've dealt with in here?
 
Gibbsy said:
Morning gents. Have added the Dropbox link to the OP so we have it on us at all times. To whoever has sifted through the thread, I salute you. Does the spreadsheet include pretty much every case we've dealt with in here?
Click to expand...
Short answer is not yet - I got up to about page 20 and will do the rest as I find the time...
(but if anyone else wants to do it please feel free to help :))
 
Archie Pratt (17 January 1879 – 24 September 1962) played for South Melbourne, St Kilda and Melbourne in 1905, 1906 and 1910 (and apparently Northcote in between)

The dates of birth/death are those of Archibald Thomas Pratt, born in Maitland NSW and died in Hornsby, NSW
Looking on Ancestry though, this man was a chemist and is listed in Sands directories as living in NSW during the time he was supposedly playing football, he had a daughter in NSW in 1910 and appears in news articles such as http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article229657063

I can't see how he can be the player and propose Archibald Herbert Pratt (1882-1941) as a far more likely candidate
From Vic Police Reports in 1918
upload_2018-10-4_21-57-53.png
and 1919 census record has Archibald Herbert Pratt at this address
upload_2018-10-4_21-59-37.png
 
rbartlett said:
Good research WHL - and for mind it does raise him a possible candidate.
1. Is it worth seeing if there are any descendants (thru Ancrestry), who may have a photo of Alfred George Richardson - and we could compare that to the 1900 Leopold player.
Click to expand...
Well an Ancestry search has turned up one fairly interesting fact - Alfred George Richardson is the brother of William Kendall Richardson - the 1900 player!
 
ThePope said:
I'm happy to do what I can, but often when I see a confimation here, WHL has already updated it! But as he said, there is a specific policy against updating Wikipedia based on original research, which is what we are doing here. You could argue that getting the AFL to tick off on it provides some verification, but it really does need to be published elsewhere first - and not just on this forum. But please feel free to hit me up here or on twitter if you want anything updated, or have any issues on wikipedia.
Click to expand...


So what's the best area for this to be published elsewhere first (I'm referring to Archie Richardson/ William Kendall Richardson / Horrie Lyons changes) so then ThePope and WhiteHartLane23 can then update wiki.
Archie loses his VFL status as a player (he only remains as a VFA Richmond player) so his AFLTables page would disappear. My TigerlandArchive VFA page may not be sufficient enough for Wiki.
Is it best for australianfootball to change their page for Archie Richardson to reflect only Richmond VFA, then create a new one for William Kendall Richardson, and add Horrie Lyons correct full name to his own page. Would those 3 changes be sufficient for Wiki to accept the changes ?

I'm trying to find the best process we can put in place for the wiki pages - as I'm guessing there will be a few more down the track.
 

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Resource List thread - Inaccuracy in official records

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