Resource List thread - Inaccuracy in official records

[killer]

coached Melbourne for 6 years with a year at Richmond in-between according to Fiddian/ Seagulls over Williamstown
the index also names him as a williamstown player from 1892 (p16)

 

[Oliver G]

Dyer, McCormack, McConchie, Geddes, games tallies all change.
Our researched confirmed by AFL, and approved by RFC History Committee

ive written an article here and made sure to mention our thread.

Tigerland history changes

The game tallies for four Tigers of old – Basil McCormack, Jock McConchie, Jack Dyer and Allan Geddes - have changed.

www.richmondfc.com.au

Ive emailled Paul at AFL Tables to amend, as obv the Dyer change impacts when he passed Titus club 294 games, hit the 300 game mark, surprassed Coventry's 306 games, and then had Reynolds pass him

Fantastic work Rhett and great article! AF has now been updated with the changes.

 

[Oliver G]

hi all, I posted this as a new thread, but I think it belongs here!

I have been doing some research into the career of Alex (Alec) Joker Hall, and I believe I have found evidence he was the Melbourne coach in 1911.

Supermercado if I am going over old ground, I apologise!

Now I have had a good look on Demonwiki (http://demonwiki.org/Alex+Hall) and it states at the bottom that “Some sources list him as having coached Melbourne in 1911, and show him with the name Alec. He is also shown in most contemporary sources as coach in 1914, but Football Records and newspapers from the time show that he was coach of Williamstown that year and that Len Incigneri coached the side.”
So what we do know is that Joker coached the demons in 1908 and 1909, he was at Richmond in 1910, but then left Richmond (not sure why, Rhett do you have access to the minutes or any reasons why he may have left Richmond at the end of 1910?) He then coached Melbouren again from 1912-1913. Melbourne’s honour board has 1911 blank, (their official history on their websites states Alex Hall returned in 1912 https://www.melbournefc.com.au/history/year-by-year)

The articles I have come across talk about the MCC looking for a coach, then I have Articles from April – July that refer to him as coach. The Punch from April 27 1911, states that “All last year’s team and an old coach (Alex Hall) are available at Melbourne. “

1911 Alex (Alec Joker Hall references)
March 11 MCC put out application for coach https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/10885434
March 18 – RFC decide to appoint no coach https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/255870457
April 21 – Engaged as coach https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/242213398
April 27 - https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/175612181
April 27 – More reference here - https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/175612181
May 12 – Richmond Appoints coach
Coach in June 9 - https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/242228163
Coach in July 21 - https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/242841035


offer to coach Carlton in finals 1911 - https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/242842192

1912 – The Herald reports that it’s the same old coach for Melbourne https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/241503816

Also a side note, I notice that Boyles also records him as having coached from 1911-193 at Melbourne https://www.boylesfootballphotos.net.au/Alec+Hall

If he was coach, then how do we go about getting this officially recognized and adding his name onto the 1911 space on the honour board?

Solid enough evidence for me to update Demonwiki. I will get this done in the next few days.

As for the club, you could contact them via the form on the website but they generally have no interest in historical matters. Not to sound up myself but they tend to take stuff off Demonwiki (which I have no problem with) so maybe wait for me to update it then contact them. Will confirm when done.

Great find, AF has been updated.

 

[rbartlett]

Hello. I need your thoughts on this bit of research please.
I think we may have the wrong Fred Morgan details for Richmond on file.
Currently he is Frederick Harold Morgan born 11 October 1892 - 10 July 1971. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Morgan_(footballer)

However, this article in Richmond paper says the "popular Richmond football" is Frederick Herbert Morgan, who son of J.C Morgan of Wall-Street Burnley,and that he marries Eva May Pearse.
View attachment 1030206
Using those details, I reckon his date of birth is now:
View attachment 1030190
And therefore his date of death is:
View attachment 1030191

That would mean that he is NOT the Frederick Morgan listed in WW1 and WW2 pages of Cullens Those Who Served book.
And I cant find Frederick Herbert Morgan as having a Service Record.

As well here is a photograph of Fred, circa 1913 playing for Richmond Cricket side
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article241534966

View attachment 1030193

Anyone have Ancestry access to see if thre's a tree and possible photo to compare.

What's ya thoughts on the evidence?

Stephen Rogers has agreed that they had the wrong Fred Morgan on file. And as such the correct one is Frederick Herbert Morgan b 1891, d 10 March 1966
The discrepancy came about when the AFL went off the District Cricket list done in the 1980s BEFORE the AFL started documenting all the Births/Deaths.
And they had the *incorrect* Fred Morgan details on that list.
The AFL's handwritten player list shows Frederick H. Morgan, with no full middle name. And hence they went with what District Cricket did.
So well done to all involved with this post over the last few pages. I will update the spreadsheet over the coming week.

(btw, with the new Fred's Ancestry page, was that current? As in , is there a way to contact the owner of the Tree to source a photo)

 

[rbartlett]

Another goal thing I've found.

I noticed earlier that Bob Dummett's been credited with an extra goal which takes him from 199 to 200 career goals.

Was this covered earlier in the thread?

I think its to go with Rd 3 1958. Of which incredible there's the last surviving quarter of.

Paul at AFLTables told me that "Langridge and Dunin's goals were given to Dummett, as per this match report"
https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=5TNVAAAAIBAJ&sjid=JJUDAAAAIBAJ&pg=4684,3948937

However I told him later that:

"I reckon Dummett should be on 3 goals, not 4, and Langridge gets 1 goal back.
I know The Age says 4 goals for Dummett but:

a) The video of the last quarter clearly has the commentators saying Dummett kicked his 3rd goal. And he doesn't kick another after that.
b) the Goalkicking list located in the Football Record for Rd 3 and Rd 4 increases Dummett by 3 goals, not 4.
c) I also have a football record from that day with the goalkickers and behinds filled in for Richmond side and that has Dummett as 3.

So I reckon it should be the following:

Dummett 3 (remove 1 goal from him on your AFLTables)
Allsop 3
Jenkins 2
Langridge 1 (add 1 goal back for your AFLTables)
Branton 1
P Morris 1"

So I think Dummett got a goal which took him to 200 - which AFLTables now reflects. His wikipedia still says 199.

It's entry 44 on the inaccuracies spreadsheet

 

[35Daicos]

I think its to go with Rd 3 1958. Of which incredible there's the last surviving quarter of.

Paul at AFLTables told me that "Langridge and Dunin's goals were given to Dummett, as per this match report"
https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=5TNVAAAAIBAJ&sjid=JJUDAAAAIBAJ&pg=4684,3948937

However I told him later that:

"I reckon Dummett should be on 3 goals, not 4, and Langridge gets 1 goal back.
I know The Age says 4 goals for Dummett but:

a) The video of the last quarter clearly has the commentators saying Dummett kicked his 3rd goal. And he doesn't kick another after that.
b) the Goalkicking list located in the Football Record for Rd 3 and Rd 4 increases Dummett by 3 goals, not 4.
c) I also have a football record from that day with the goalkickers and behinds filled in for Richmond side and that has Dummett as 3.

So I reckon it should be the following:

Dummett 3 (remove 1 goal from him on your AFLTables)
Allsop 3
Jenkins 2
Langridge 1 (add 1 goal back for your AFLTables)
Branton 1
P Morris 1"

So I think Dummett got a goal which took him to 200 - which AFLTables now reflects. His wikipedia still says 199.

It's entry 44 on the inaccuracies spreadsheet

I'm just wondering, has that change been accepted by the AFL?

If so, the change hasn't been made here: Australian Football - Match Details: 1958 R3 Richmond vs St. Kilda

Oliver Gigacz

 

[Oliver G]

I think its to go with Rd 3 1958. Of which incredible there's the last surviving quarter of.

Paul at AFLTables told me that "Langridge and Dunin's goals were given to Dummett, as per this match report"
https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=5TNVAAAAIBAJ&sjid=JJUDAAAAIBAJ&pg=4684,3948937

However I told him later that:

"I reckon Dummett should be on 3 goals, not 4, and Langridge gets 1 goal back.
I know The Age says 4 goals for Dummett but:

a) The video of the last quarter clearly has the commentators saying Dummett kicked his 3rd goal. And he doesn't kick another after that.
b) the Goalkicking list located in the Football Record for Rd 3 and Rd 4 increases Dummett by 3 goals, not 4.
c) I also have a football record from that day with the goalkickers and behinds filled in for Richmond side and that has Dummett as 3.

So I reckon it should be the following:

Dummett 3 (remove 1 goal from him on your AFLTables)
Allsop 3
Jenkins 2
Langridge 1 (add 1 goal back for your AFLTables)
Branton 1
P Morris 1"

So I think Dummett got a goal which took him to 200 - which AFLTables now reflects. His wikipedia still says 199.

It's entry 44 on the inaccuracies spreadsheet

I'm just wondering, has that change been accepted by the AFL?

If so, the change hasn't been made here: Australian Football - Match Details: 1958 R3 Richmond vs St. Kilda
View attachment 1045380
Oliver Gigacz

Thanks Rhett and Daicos, we're happy with the change and AF has now been updated.

 

[rbartlett]

I'm just wondering, has that change been accepted by the AFL?

If so, the change hasn't been made here: Australian Football - Match Details: 1958 R3 Richmond vs St. Kilda
View attachment 1045380
Oliver Gigacz

Well actually Stephen R hasn't reviewed the Inaccuracies spreadsheet , due to covid, unable to go into the AFL House.
So it hasn't actually been approved by AFL.

But the original change was done by AFL Tables on research conducted by someone. So Im assuming *that* change was approved.
Then when I noticed one day there was a change to this game stats I went to double check and came across a change on top of that (which is on the spreadsheet and waiting for AFL). Hope that makes sense.

 

[35Daicos]

It looks very likely that there's an error in the Fitzroy lineup for this 1909 Rd. 11 game: AFL Tables - Geelong v Fitzroy - Sat, 10-Jul-1909 3:00 PM - Match Stats
The Herald: 10 Jul 1909 - THE LEAGUE - Trove (nla.gov.au)

Brophy is named in the side and mentioned several times in the match description, but he's not in the official lineup. Taylor appears to be the player who didn't play. He hadn't been in the side since Rd. 6 and wasn't in it again until Rd. 15. Brophy currently is credited with only having the one career game (back in Rd. 7).


Brosnan did end up playing.

The Argus mentions Brophy as having played.

The Herald has Brophy dropping out of the side a week later:

By Platt it seems they mean Parratt!

The Age and The Australasian don't help at all.

Taylor doesn't get a mention anywhere. It does seem pretty clear that Brophy played instead of Taylor.

 

[ThePope]

Charles Hay, 1 game for Carl, 2 games for Ess in 1910/11 has a date of death listed as 23 Aug 1945. Cemetery records and headstone indicate this is actually the funeral date, actual date of death is 21 Aug.

http://www.ozgenonline.com/~nhm_cemeteries/Bulla_Cemetery/_surname.html

Charles Burt Hay (1881-1945) - Find a Grave...

www.findagrave.com

 

[Todman]

One of the sleuths:

Stan C Thomas coached NM for 1 game rd4 1926. after Wels Eicke resigned.

What I know is

Secretary of NM 1924-1928, and Footscray 1931-1934

Played for NM (VFA) in 1922, another article claims he was playing in 1924.

AFLRecords has his DOB a 9/5/1892 but this is the same as Stan "dasher" Thomas of Geelong fame.

Life member of NM , and was awarded a MBE.

 

[35Daicos]

One of the sleuths:

Stan C Thomas coached NM for 1 game rd4 1926. after Wels Eicke resigned.

What I know is

Secretary of NM 1924-1928, and Footscray 1931-1934

Played for NM (VFA) in 1922, another article claims he was playing in 1924.

AFLRecords has his DOB a 9/5/1892 but this is the same as Stan "dasher" Thomas of Geelong fame.

Life member of NM , and was awarded a MBE.

That topic gets nicely covered in this thread: Wells Eicke Coach | BigFooty

They were two different people for sure. Wikipedia has it right now on the Geelong player's page, but not on this one (wrong DOB): Stan Thomas (coach) - Wikipedia . Some other sources (The Encyclopedia, AFL Tables) also have it wrong.

North Melbourne’s Young Light Side Should Do Well Next Season - Sporting Globe (Melbourne, Vic. : 1922 - 1954) - 8 Aug 1925

Norm Melbourne always has been recognised as a home of [?] and the keenness which [?] there [?] [?] favorably with the condition [?] ...

trove.nla.gov.au

This will be him:


So he'd have been born c. July 1893.




He died 5 September 1974:




There is a photo of him here: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/184818084

 

[Todman]

Ya quick

 

[ThePope]

Loyal Oakley is listed as being born in 20-Sep-1890 on AFLTables and Tigerland Archive, but 20 November 1898 on AustralianFootball and Wikipedia.
Tasmania has a birth record for him matching the 1898 date. Rhett's site has him first playing for St Virgils College Tasmania in 1916 and last for Sandringham in 1929, which is more likely at age 18 to 31 than 26 to 39.

Also, Frank "Diver" Dunne is listed on AustralianFootball and Wikipedia as being born on 13 August 1875. AFL Tables has 16 Feb 1884. There is a birth record for a Frances Charlton Dunne in 1875. An obit lists him as being 65, which puts his DOB in 1872. His playing career of 1905-1913 is believable from either date, 21-29 makes more sense than 30-39, but he is mentioned as an "old player" and ancestry has some Albury/Deniliquin (NSW) arrest and prison records that put a Frank Dunne, born in Vic, as 18 in 1893. Maybe that's why he didn't play in the VFL until he was 30?

I think you need to change *Paul* & rbartlett. Not sure what the AFL has as the "official" dates.

 

[RedmanWasHere]

I don’t know if this counts as inaccurate but the 2021 pre-season Record has some of the club lists playing funny buggers.

 

[35Daicos]

Loyal Oakley is listed as being born in 20-Sep-1890 on AFLTables and Tigerland Archive, but 20 November 1898 on AustralianFootball and Wikipedia.
Tasmania has a birth record for him matching the 1898 date. Rhett's site has him first playing for St Virgils College Tasmania in 1916 and last for Sandringham in 1929, which is more likely at age 18 to 31 than 26 to 39.

Also, Frank "Diver" Dunne is listed on AustralianFootball and Wikipedia as being born on 13 August 1875. AFL Tables has 16 Feb 1884. There is a birth record for a Frances Charlton Dunne in 1875. An obit lists him as being 65, which puts his DOB in 1872. His playing career of 1905-1913 is believable from either date, 21-29 makes more sense than 30-39, but he is mentioned as an "old player" and ancestry has some Albury/Deniliquin (NSW) arrest and prison records that put a Frank Dunne, born in Vic, as 18 in 1893. Maybe that's why he didn't play in the VFL until he was 30?

I think you need to change *Paul* & rbartlett. Not sure what the AFL has as the "official" dates.

This is what the AFL had for Loyal Oakley back around 2011 (on Historical Statistics website):

It must have been changed at some stage for the likes of AustralianFootball.com and Wikipedia to now have 20 November 1898. The Encylopedia also has 20 November 1898. That looks quite clear cut.

The AFL had this c. 10 years ago for Frank Dunne:

Obviously that matches what AustralianFootball.com and Wikipedia have, so it's a bit hard to see where AFL Tables got the different DOB from. The Encylopedia doesn't have a DOB at all for him, it just says "ex-Albury and Prahran."

The comment in The Age about him being an old player does seem a bit odd:


Yet this suggests he had been there a few years earlier:




This certainly makes it look as if the player had played for St Kilda previously, so something isn't right here, given that Frank "Diver" Dunne is meant to have only played the one game for the club (Rd. 1 1905)!

Along with Danny Dunne playing for them in 1897 there was Ernie Dunne 1897-98. He was born at Kilmore (as was Francis/Frank):

This shows he was a sibling to Frank:



An E. Dunne played for Albury in 1903:

Ernie is ex-Prahran according to The Encylopedia. So was it Ernie or Frank who played that one game for St Kilda in 1905?! Did the papers mix the two brothers up, or was it Ernie playing again. That does seem much more likely at this stage. More investigation is needed!

 

[35Daicos]

Dunne dilemma continued!:



This most likely refers to Ernest Albert (Ernie), who had played for St Kilda in 1898.





This is rather confusing since it comes only weeks after (presumably) he went to Prahran (again)!:


So Ernie Dunne was definitely at Albury 1902-03.

This was for a pre-season practice game in 1905:


VFA Project has the two brothers playing for Prahran at about the same time:

But it says this about Francis 'Diver':


Frank 'Diver' Dunne is meant to have played his one and only game for St Kilda on 6 May 1905: AFL Tables - Melbourne v St Kilda - Sat, 6-May-1905 3:00 PM - Match Stats

On 3 June 1905 he debuted for South Fremantle:



So did he play that one game for St Kilda in 1905 and then leave for WA, or was it his brother Ernie who played? I still think Ernie looks more likely to have played (for St Kilda). Frank Dunne went on to have a very successful career in WA and SA.



This Ancestry 'tree' does have Frank (most likely) living at Albury:

Yet clearly his brother spent time/played up that way too. The two did look quite a bit alike:


Francis Charlton Dunne.




So "Diver" Dunn did play for Federals, but so did Ernie!:






Since Frank 'Diver' Dunne seems to have been living at Albury and playing football there for several years I don't see why he would head to Melbourne, play the one game for St Kilda (he was in the squad the following week but didn't make the team) then he'd pack up and head off to WA (he was a married man). I think it's much more likely his brother Ernie, who was living in Melbourne, but had played with Albury (and Prahran) was the 1905 player.

 

[35Daicos]

I don’t know if this counts as inaccurate but the 2021 pre-season Record has some of the club lists playing funny buggers.

How exactly?!

 

[RedmanWasHere]

How exactly?!

With some of the team lists, they're listed in American dating order.

 

[ThePope]

I'm doing a full cross check between AustralianFootball, AFL Tables and Wikipedia/Wikidata so will probably be posting a few updates over the next week or so.

Kevin Bradley died in 2013. Death notice says 8 Feb, Australian Football has 11 Feb, Oliver Gigacz

Cemetery record
Tigerland has no death date listed, rbartlett

 

[Supermercado]

This one is the reverse, it's actually inaccuracy in unofficial records. I've been delving into Norm Smith's coaching record for an upcoming project, and it was pointed out to me that the AFL Tables and AFL season guide tallies for Smith's coaching are incorrect.

AFL Tables

Won - 253 Drawn -7 Lost - 192 Played - 452

AFL Database

Won - 251 Drawn - 7 Lost - 191 Played - 449

The AFL Database figure is what shows in the official season guide. I queried the discrepancy and have discovered that John Beckwith actually coached the last three rounds of 1967 when Smith was sick. See, for instance, this story from the Monday after Melbourne's final game of 1967:



Obviously he didn't coach the week before, or this week so I'm certain he didn't coach all three.

Therefore, Smith's record on AFL Tables/AustralianFootball and Demonwiki (I'll handle that one!) needs to be edited to move the last three games of 1967 to John Beckwith's coaching record.

 

[Oliver G]

This one is the reverse, it's actually inaccuracy in unofficial records. I've been delving into Norm Smith's coaching record for an upcoming project, and it was pointed out to me that the AFL Tables and AFL season guide tallies for Smith's coaching are incorrect.

AFL Tables

Won - 253 Drawn -7 Lost - 192 Played - 452

AFL Database

Won - 251 Drawn - 7 Lost - 191 Played - 449

The AFL Database figure is what shows in the official season guide. I queried the discrepancy and have discovered that John Beckwith actually coached the last three rounds of 1967 when Smith was sick. See, for instance, this story from the Monday after Melbourne's final game of 1967:

View attachment 1065312

Obviously he didn't coach the week before, or this week so I'm certain he didn't coach all three.

Therefore, Smith's record on AFL Tables/AustralianFootball and Demonwiki (I'll handle that one!) needs to be edited to move the last three games of 1967 to John Beckwith's coaching record.

Thanks for that, I'll update AF tonight.

 

[Supermercado]

I believe it's pretty conclusive that Jack Gardiner played for Melbourne in Round 17, 1908 in place of the listed Jim Conquest.

See this match report that mentions him being there and shows him in the team.



Based on this evidence I'm amending Demonwiki to add a game to Gardiner and delete one from Conquest.

 

[35Daicos]

I believe it's pretty conclusive that Jack Gardiner played for Melbourne in Round 17, 1908 in place of the listed Jim Conquest.

See this match report that mentions him being there and shows him in the team.

View attachment 1067806

Based on this evidence I'm amending Demonwiki to add a game to Gardiner and delete one from Conquest.

It does seem very clear that change needs to be made, but I posted about this game/situation a few months back. Did you not see this (I did 'tag' you)?: Resource - List thread - Inaccuracy in official records | Page 105 | BigFooty

 

[Supermercado]

It does seem very clear that change needs to be made, but I posted about this game/situation a few months back. Did you not see this (I did 'tag' you)?: Resource - List thread - Inaccuracy in official records | Page 105 | BigFooty

Oops, must have been during one of my unpredictable absences. Thanks for the tag!