Resource List thread - Inaccuracy in official records

[35Daicos]

I think you have found the right family and Phillip is ‘Bill’. The death notice for the father is in The Age on 13 May 1946 and mentions Bill, but not Phillip.

I’m thinking that Phillip was born at the latest in 1894, given that he is on the Electoral Roll in 1912. He’d have to be at least 18 to be on the Roll.


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

Good one! I didn't end up finding the father's death notice, so that is very handy. It certainly didn't add up that Phillip Francis could be on that electoral roll if he wasn't older than George Frederick Thomas, and the latter just wasn't likely to be old enough to have been playing for Northcote in 1912.
So Bill/Phillip Francis must have been born well before the parents got married.

It would now be very surprising if he wasn't the footballer we're looking for. Tracking down exactly when he was born/died may be fairly tricky!

It's a bit of a longshot, but it just could be that this was his birth:

Since he was Phillip Francis Billett, and the mother was Elizabeth Mary Ann nee Francis it just might be a possibility!

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

Good one! I didn't end up finding the father's death notice, so that is very handy. It certainly didn't add up that Phillip Francis could be on that electoral roll if he wasn't older than George Frederick Thomas, and the latter just wasn't likely to be old enough to have been playing for Northcote in 1912.
So Bill/Phillip Francis must have been born well before the parents got married.
View attachment 1285540
It would now be very surprising if he wasn't the footballer we're looking for. Tracking down exactly when he was born/died may be fairly tricky!

It's a bit of a longshot, but it just could be that this was his birth:
View attachment 1285603
Since he was Phillip Francis Billett, and the mother was Elizabeth Mary Ann nee Francis it just might be a possibility!

Think this is correct - here is a marriage notice for Phillip Francis Bollard (son of Mr & Mrs Billett) to Olivia Pearl Nelson in 1915
This tree on Ancestry states he was an illegitimate child born to Elizabeth Francis and Phillip Bollard and has a link to WWII Service Record that has DOB 13 April 1890
Vic BDM death is registered as Phillip Francis BOLLARD in 1975 - probate notice shows death date of 30 Jul 1975.

Most electoral roll records seems to be under Phillip Francis Bollard - he was a bootmaker by trade and seems to live in the same areas the footballer was playing.

Think we are getting close - seems very likely he is our man to me (but still relies heavily on his father's death notice!)

 

[35Daicos]

I think we're getting real close!! There's no doubt at all that the chap the AFL have in their records is not the right chap, and somebody needs to take his place! So is this the footballer?:

ACCESS TO CHILDREN. - Wife Appeals to Court. - The Argus (Melbourne, Vic. : 1848 - 1957) - 22 Jul 1925

Mrs. Pearl Bollard, of Balaclava road, Caulfield, applied to Mr. Justice Cussen, in the Practice Court yesterday, for leave to have access to her two children, Phillip ...

trove.nla.gov.au

Phillip Francis Bollard was at Yea in 1925, the same year that we know "Billy" Billett (who had played for Fitzroy and South Melbourne) went from Collingwood to Yea (who he apparently coached). We know George and Elizabeth Billett were at Yea in 1925 as well.

I actually posted this same 'clip' on the previous page without noticing that P. F. Bollard was at the same Abbotsford address in 1924 as George and Elizabeth Billett! At that stage we weren't looking for a Bollard!:


Another tree on Ancestry has this, confirming the DOB as 13 April 1890:


It's hard to figure out why he so often used the Bollard name (including when he got married) yet played football as a Billett. Where the name Bill or Billy came from is another mystery, but I don't think that is a great concern (he actually had a sibling/half-sibling William Thomas Francis born 1883 according to a couple of Ancestry trees). When the father (George Billett) died in 1946, Bill (not Phillip, who wasn't named) was the first of the children listed. I think there's more than enough evidence now that this is our player.

 

[the croucher]

I think we're getting real close!! There's no doubt at all that the chap the AFL have in their records is not the right chap, and somebody needs to take his place! So is this the footballer?:

ACCESS TO CHILDREN. - Wife Appeals to Court. - The Argus (Melbourne, Vic. : 1848 - 1957) - 22 Jul 1925

Mrs. Pearl Bollard, of Balaclava road, Caulfield, applied to Mr. Justice Cussen, in the Practice Court yesterday, for leave to have access to her two children, Phillip ...

trove.nla.gov.au

View attachment 1285953
Phillip Francis Bollard was at Yea in 1925, the same year that we know "Billy" Billett (who had played for Fitzroy and South Melbourne) went from Collingwood to Yea (who he apparently coached). We know George and Elizabeth Billett were at Yea in 1925 as well.

I actually posted this same 'clip' on the previous page without noticing that P. F. Bollard was at the same Abbotsford address in 1924 as George and Elizabeth Billett! At that stage we weren't looking for a Bollard!:
View attachment 1285854

Another tree on Ancestry has this, confirming the DOB as 13 April 1890:
View attachment 1285816

It's hard to figure out why he so often used the Bollard name (including when he got married) yet played football as a Billett. Where the name Bill or Billy came from is another mystery, but I don't think that is a great concern (he actually had a sibling/half-sibling William Thomas Francis born 1883 according to a couple of Ancestry trees). When the father (George Billett) died in 1946, Bill (not Phillip, who wasn't named) was the first of the children listed. I think there's more than enough evidence now that this is our player.

Well done all involved in the Billett/Bollard research. I like your work !
I too am convinced right person now known.

Note too that 1912 electoral roll would naturally be first to show him as his DOB in 1890 makes him 22,
and from 1901 to 1972 elections you had to be 21 to vote.

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

So... to summarise the proposed change:
Details for Billy Billett (Northcote, Brunswick, Fitzroy, Yarraville, SM, Collingwood reserves, Yea) to be updated to:

Legal Name: Philip Francis Bollard (note: birth registered as Philip Bollard Francis)
Known as: Bill(y) Billett (in football reports/records)
Birth: 13 April 1890 at Collingwood, Victoria
Death: 30 July 1975 at Parkville, Victoria

note: Volunteer Defence Corps service in WWII

 

[RedmanWasHere]

Bollard

Appropriately named as he's proved difficult to get through and around.

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

Arthur Rayson (Geelong) is listed with DOB 1 December 1898 in football sources.

However multiple Ancestry trees show 1 Dec 1901 as birth date, Vic BDM records show birth of Arthur William Rayson in Dunolly, Victoria registered in 1901, his death in 1970 cited his age as 68 and contemporary reports like this and this also are consistent with the 1901 date.

I'm at a bit of a loss to see where the 1898 date came from but it seems clear that correct DOB is 1 Dec 1901.

Summary: Change date of birth for Arthur Rayson (Geelong) from 1 December 1898 to 1 December 1901

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

Alan/Allan Reid (Geelong) has a number of discrepancies in details as recorded in different sources:

Wikipedia has him as Alan Reid, DOB 14 Dec 1926
AFL Tables has him as Allan Reid, DOB 14 Dec 1926
Australianfootball.com has him as Alan Reid, DOB 14 Dec 1926
Encyclopedia has him as Alan L Reid, DOB 4 Dec 1926
Harder Than Football has him as Alan Leslie Reid, DOB 4 Dec 1926
WWII Record has him as Allan Leslie Reid, DOB 4 Dec 1926
The few football articles that I could find on Trove that have a given name seem to use Alan e.g. http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article23082179
Headstone on his grave has name Alan Leslie Reid
Vic BDM has marriage as Allan Leslie Reid
Electoral Rolls have him as Allan Leslie Reid (mostly living in Drysdale)
Vic BDM has death as Alan Leslie Reid

…difficult to know from all of this what is correct but consistency in football records would be good. It feels like he might have been born as an “Allan” but used/preferred “Alan”? Not sure where the 4th/14th Dec DOB variation comes from… the only official source in the list above is the WWII record but perhaps AFL have date from actual birth certificate?

 

[the croucher]

Alan/Allan Reid (Geelong) has a number of discrepancies in details as recorded in different sources:

Wikipedia has him as Alan Reid, DOB 14 Dec 1926
AFL Tables has him as Allan Reid, DOB 14 Dec 1926
Australianfootball.com has him as Alan Reid, DOB 14 Dec 1926
Encyclopedia has him as Alan L Reid, DOB 4 Dec 1926
Harder Than Football has him as Alan Leslie Reid, DOB 4 Dec 1926
WWII Record has him as Allan Leslie Reid, DOB 4 Dec 1926
The few football articles that I could find on Trove that have a given name seem to use Alan e.g. http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article23082179
Headstone on his grave has name Alan Leslie Reid
Vic BDM has marriage as Allan Leslie Reid
Electoral Rolls have him as Allan Leslie Reid (mostly living in Drysdale)
Vic BDM has death as Alan Leslie Reid

…difficult to know from all of this what is correct but consistency in football records would be good. It feels like he might have been born as an “Allan” but used/preferred “Alan”? Not sure where the 4th/14th Dec DOB variation comes from… the only official source in the list above is the WWII record but perhaps AFL have date from actual birth certificate?

The original marriage certificate possibly best source for given name as he would have signed that one himself.
And yes, the AFL which have apparent connections to the BDM office should be able to confirm DOB.

 

[RedmanWasHere]

In the R4 2003 edition of Inside Football, where the game review pages are, complete with stats, where they have, for instance, "Feral Bomber," on one page, it reviewed the Collingwood and Geelong game (which Collingwood won) and, instead of showing Collingwood's mascot, they ran with Adelaide's mascot.

 

[RedmanWasHere]

A big congrats to one of our own in rbartlett who's been awarded life membership at the Tigers for his work in helping document and correct Richmond's history.

Well done Rhett.

 

[rbartlett]

Thanks for the kind words. You've all been very supportive. And as well an incredible collection of research skill and knowledge

 

[rbartlett]

Just a shout out to everyone on this thread for another great year of researching.
Hope you all have a safe New Year, and see you in this thread in 2022!

Rhett

 

[rbartlett]

Wiki has the great Jack Titus born 9 March 1908

Jack Titus - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Ancestry shows 3 March 1908 https://www.ancestry.com.au/genealogy/records/william-john-jack-titus-24-g9lj2n
FindAGrave says 3 March 1908 https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/139560075/william-john_(jack)-titus
I think AFL Ency says 3 March 1908

 

[35Daicos]

Wiki has the great Jack Titus born 9 March 1908

Jack Titus - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Ancestry shows 3 March 1908 https://www.ancestry.com.au/genealogy/records/william-john-jack-titus-24-g9lj2n
FindAGrave says 3 March 1908 https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/139560075/william-john_(jack)-titus
I think AFL Ency says 3 March 1908

Yes, the Encyclopedia does have 3 March 1908 (it had that as long ago as the 1998 edition). The AFL Historical Statistics site had this:

AFL Tables and AustralianFootball.com both have 9 March 1908. The AFL Record Season Guide (Hall of Fame section) has 9/3/1908.
Interestingly, they don't have that here: https://www.afl.com.au/hall-of-fame/players

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

Wiki has the great Jack Titus born 9 March 1908

Jack Titus - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Ancestry shows 3 March 1908 https://www.ancestry.com.au/genealogy/records/william-john-jack-titus-24-g9lj2n
FindAGrave says 3 March 1908 https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/139560075/william-john_(jack)-titus
I think AFL Ency says 3 March 1908

This is a tricky one - this news article has 3 March 1908 but potentially this could be the source of all the confusion as well.
It feels like the 3rd was the original date and then AFL has changed to the 9th at some point?
Perhaps a check with Col/Steve R at AFL house is required.

The only "reliable" source would seem to be the birth certificate

 

[RedmanWasHere]

Just watching a GF video YouTube when this scoreline popped up.

I've always thought Essendon's score was 8.9.57.

 

[killer]

The guy in charge of the character generator must have packed up early

 

[35Daicos]

Just watching a GF video YouTube when this scoreline popped up.

I've always thought Essendon's score was 8.9.57.

View attachment 1307019

It certainly should be! Channel 7 and the small scoreboard had the scores as shown above after Hawthorn kicked a late goal, then Merrett ran in on an angle and hit the post for Essendon. It looks as if they didn't update the on-screen score on 7 for some reason.


Plus Peter Landy right at the end of the video said "Essendon 8.9.57".

 

[Bandit55]

Further to the Erwins, Irwins and Urbans at South Melbourne. It appears that Erwin Dornau's is misspelt in the records and should be Albert Irwin Dornau:

https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/220606153/albert-irwin-dornau

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

Further to the Erwins, Irwins and Urbans at South Melbourne. It appears that Erwin Dornau's is misspelt in the records and should be Albert Irwin Dornau:

https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/220606153/albert-irwin-dornau

I don't think this one is clear cut: his marriage in 1949 (Vic BDM 27943/1949) was as Erwin Albt Dornau but his WWII enlistment record from 1944 is Albert Irwin Dornau. Electoral roll is consistently Erwin Albert Dornau (he lived in Bentleigh) but both probate and grave have Albert Irwin Dornau.

Trove searches for him as a footballer show more results for "Erwin Dornau" than "Irwin Dornau" but both are fairly common. I'm not sure there is a clear error in the current records - maybe if the birth certificate showed Irwin the case would be stronger, but families getting spelling of names wrong on graves is sadly not that uncommon!

 

[35Daicos]

There must be some doubt about the DOB for Alby Anderson, who played for St Kilda (1924) and Richmond (1926).

AFL Tables has:

AFL Historical Statistics website had that^ as well. The AFL most likely changed it at some stage. Wikipedia has:

AustralianFootball.com has:

So does The Encyclopedia.

His Wikipedia page has quite a lot to say, and includes many links to newspaper articles:

====================================================

Much of what it has here ^ is about a different Albert Anderson! This Albert Anderson was also a star footballer, but seems to have been in/around Albury for pretty much his entire (adult) life:

You can read the obituary of his father here. He was the President of Balldale and Corowa football clubs, and the son played/coached there, as well as with other clubs in that region:

You can see him sitting (in the front row) of a 1929 West Albury team photo here (he even looks rover-sized!): https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/224405371
1930 West Albury team photo: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/223327480

............................
This^ refers to Albert Nichol Anderson, who was married in 1927:

So there were the two Albert Anderson's, and much of what it says on that Wiki page should be discarded. I think the papers got it wrong occasionally when identifying who was who, though I don't have any doubt there was just the one player (Albert Anderson 1894-1980) who played for both St Kilda and Richmond! I think it is certain he was the chap who ended up at Warrnambool in 1934, even though it means he was still playing very well at the remarkable age of 42 at the end of 1936! Also, Warrnambool lost to Mortlake (not Terang as it says in the Wiki article) in the 1936 Grand Final.

When Corowa beat West Albury in the 1932 O & M Grand Final there was an A. Anderson on each side: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/236192420

The player on the winning side (Corowa) should be the VFL player, with Albert N. Anderson playing for West Albury.

Albert Nichol Anderson was living at Albury (with wife Eva) in 1936:


The other chap was still down at/near Warrnambool:


The VFL player certainly wasn't a rover, he was a much taller player:

================================================================================================================================

Albert Anderson (1894-1980) - Find a Grave...

www.findagrave.com

If they have that DOB correct then the (football) records need to change from 26 August 1894 to 22 August 1894.

 

[the croucher]

There must be some doubt about the DOB for Alby Anderson, who played for St Kilda (1924) and Richmond (1926).

AFL Tables has:
View attachment 1318139
AFL Historical Statistics website had that^ as well. The AFL most likely changed it at some stage. Wikipedia has:
View attachment 1317923
AustralianFootball.com has:
View attachment 1318143
So does The Encyclopedia.

His Wikipedia page has quite a lot to say, and includes many links to newspaper articles:
View attachment 1318146
====================================================
View attachment 1318148
Much of what it has here ^ is about a different Albert Anderson! This Albert Anderson was also a star footballer, but seems to have been in/around Albury for pretty much his entire (adult) life:
View attachment 1318150
You can read the obituary of his father here. He was the President of Balldale and Corowa football clubs, and the son played/coached there, as well as with other clubs in that region:
View attachment 1318156
You can see him sitting (in the front row) of a 1929 West Albury team photo here (he even looks rover-sized!): https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/224405371
1930 West Albury team photo: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/223327480
View attachment 1318162
............................ View attachment 1318165
This^ refers to Albert Nichol Anderson, who was married in 1927:
View attachment 1318145
So there were the two Albert Anderson's, and much of what it says on that Wiki page should be discarded. I think the papers got it wrong occasionally when identifying who was who, though I don't have any doubt there was just the one player (Albert Anderson 1894-1980) who played for both St Kilda and Richmond! I think it is certain he was the chap who ended up at Warrnambool in 1934, even though it means he was still playing very well at the remarkable age of 42 at the end of 1936! Also, Warrnambool lost to Mortlake (not Terang as it says in the Wiki article) in the 1936 Grand Final.

When Corowa beat West Albury in the 1932 O & M Grand Final there was an A. Anderson on each side: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/236192420
View attachment 1318393
The player on the winning side (Corowa) should be the VFL player, with Albert N. Anderson playing for West Albury.

Albert Nichol Anderson was living at Albury (with wife Eva) in 1936:
View attachment 1318185

The other chap was still down at/near Warrnambool:
View attachment 1318188

The VFL player certainly wasn't a rover, he was a much taller player:
View attachment 1318172
================================================================================================================================

Albert Anderson (1894-1980) - Find a Grave...

www.findagrave.com

View attachment 1318155
If they have that DOB correct then the (football) records need to change from 26 August 1894 to 22 August 1894.

No, they have the date wrong. Should stay as 26th.

A check of the NSW BDMs site using the excellent facility to modify criteria day by day in the Births section

https://www.nsw.gov.au/family-and-relationships/family-history-search,

confirms that the Albert Anderson born to John & Georgina Anderson has a registered birthdate of
26 August 1894 with certificate number 34423/1894.

 

[35Daicos]

No, they have the date wrong. Should stay as 26th.

A check of the NSW BDMs site using the excellent facility to modify criteria day by day in the Births section

https://www.nsw.gov.au/family-and-relationships/family-history-search,

confirms that the Albert Anderson born to John & Georgina Anderson has a registered birthdate of
26 August 1894 with certificate number 34423/1894.

Thanks for that. Pretty ordinary mistake for the family to make, but we know these things happen! As for your 'trick' move on the NSW BDM site, it's one I have absolutely no idea about, but good work.

At the very least, AFL Tables needs to change that DOB, but hopefully someone can clean things up a bit on Alby Anderson's Wikipedia page!! So much of what it has there refers to another player (who didn't play in the VFL)!

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

Thanks for that. Pretty ordinary mistake for the family to make, but we know these things happen! As for your 'trick' move on the NSW BDM site, it's one I have absolutely no idea about, but good work.

At the very least, AFL Tables needs to change that DOB, but hopefully someone can clean things up a bit on Alby Anderson's Wikipedia page!! So much of what it has there refers to another player (who didn't play in the VFL)!

I've tidied up the wiki page - let me know if you think there any remaining issues with it!