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Resource List thread - Inaccuracy in official records
- Thread starter Supermercado
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It appears questionable whether Tom Hawkins played for South Melbourne in 1904. According to Wikipedia he was from Ballarat.
Newspaper reports re: the Round 13 game, identify the player as Hawking from Kyabram:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/165171650?browse=ndp%3
FOOTBALL - SOUTH MELB. v. FITZROY. - Record (Emerald Hill, Vic. : 1881 - 1954) - 20 Aug 1904
PLUCKY EFFORT BY ST. KILDA. - The Argus (Melbourne, Vic. : 1848 - 1957) - 1 Aug 1904
[?] MELBOURNE (10.5) BEAT ST. KILDA (6.10). - The Age (Melbourne, Vic. : 1854 - 1954) - 1 Aug 1904
There's an Arthur Thomas Hawking who is buried at Kyabram who died in 1952 aged 70. He's the right age, but I haven't been able to track anything to suggest he was a footballer:
Newspaper reports re: the Round 13 game, identify the player as Hawking from Kyabram:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/165171650?browse=ndp%3
FOOTBALL - SOUTH MELB. v. FITZROY. - Record (Emerald Hill, Vic. : 1881 - 1954) - 20 Aug 1904
PLUCKY EFFORT BY ST. KILDA. - The Argus (Melbourne, Vic. : 1848 - 1957) - 1 Aug 1904
[?] MELBOURNE (10.5) BEAT ST. KILDA (6.10). - The Age (Melbourne, Vic. : 1854 - 1954) - 1 Aug 1904
There's an Arthur Thomas Hawking who is buried at Kyabram who died in 1952 aged 70. He's the right age, but I haven't been able to track anything to suggest he was a footballer:
| 3736 | 0 | Hawking | Arthur Thomas | 70 yrs. | 15/12/1952 |
It appears questionable whether Tom Hawkins played for South Melbourne in 1904. According to Wikipedia he was from Ballarat.
It does seem a bit unlikely. Especially as the papers do have the player as Hawking so often.
This is all I've seen so far. It might mean something!
He was from Kyabram at about the right time:
Finding something that really helps would be handy!
I see The Encyclopedia has the South Melbourne player as "ex-Kyabram", and Wikipedia also has Kyabram as his original team (players' Wiki pages often have what the book has). But did Thomas Edward Hawkins (who the AFL's records have as the player) leave Ballarat (where the family was living) to go to Kyabram while still a teenager and get recruited from there in 1904?:
It does seem a bit unlikely. Especially as the papers do have the player as Hawking so often.
This is all I've seen so far. It might mean something!
He was from Kyabram at about the right time:
Finding something that really helps would be handy!
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It's a really awful story that one, with two families wrecked.
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Just to let everyone know we have removed a player from our official playing list.
The player in question is John Newton Jacomb.
He was claimed as a Carlton player in a 1933 publication, the Carlton Centenary Souvenir.
However, evidence has emerged that this claim is incorect.
www.blueseum.org
The claim was that Jacomb broke his leg playing for Carlton in 1864.
However,
This link lists him as playing for Melbourne against a combined Royal Park and Eastern Hills side on Saturday 2nd July 1864
The Future of the Game, and what the Discussion has Done for it. - [Concluded from the [?].] - Bell's Life in Victoria and Sporting Chronicle (Melbourne, Vic. : 1857 - 1868) - 2 Jul 1864
This describes Jacomb breaking his leg on 2nd July while playing for Melbourne in the match against the combined side.
No title - The Herald (Melbourne, Vic. : 1861 - 1954) - 4 Jul 1864
Some more details on Jacomb's injury
ACCIDENTS AND OFFENCES. - Leader (Melbourne, Vic. : 1862 - 1918, 1935) - 9 Jul 1864
Description of a Melbourne intra-club game in early June 1864 where the 'reds' played the 'blues', Jacomb played for Harrison's Blues.
SCRATCH MATCH of the MELBOURNE FOOTBALL CLUB. - Bell's Life in Victoria and Sporting Chronicle (Melbourne, Vic. : 1857 - 1868) - 4 Jun 1864
- This might be the source of the confusion for the 1933 publication (no other major Carlton publication since 1933 has claimed Jacomb as a Carlton player)
I found all this out doing further research after visiting Walhalla over summer and taking some pictures of Jacomb's grave to include on the Blueseum.
So if anyone wants those pictures please send an email to the Blueseum!
The player in question is John Newton Jacomb.
He was claimed as a Carlton player in a 1933 publication, the Carlton Centenary Souvenir.
However, evidence has emerged that this claim is incorect.
Blueseum - History of the Carlton Football Club | John Newton Jacomb
Blueseum: History of the Carlton Football Club
www.blueseum.org
The claim was that Jacomb broke his leg playing for Carlton in 1864.
However,
This link lists him as playing for Melbourne against a combined Royal Park and Eastern Hills side on Saturday 2nd July 1864
The Future of the Game, and what the Discussion has Done for it. - [Concluded from the [?].] - Bell's Life in Victoria and Sporting Chronicle (Melbourne, Vic. : 1857 - 1868) - 2 Jul 1864
This describes Jacomb breaking his leg on 2nd July while playing for Melbourne in the match against the combined side.
No title - The Herald (Melbourne, Vic. : 1861 - 1954) - 4 Jul 1864
Some more details on Jacomb's injury
ACCIDENTS AND OFFENCES. - Leader (Melbourne, Vic. : 1862 - 1918, 1935) - 9 Jul 1864
Description of a Melbourne intra-club game in early June 1864 where the 'reds' played the 'blues', Jacomb played for Harrison's Blues.
SCRATCH MATCH of the MELBOURNE FOOTBALL CLUB. - Bell's Life in Victoria and Sporting Chronicle (Melbourne, Vic. : 1857 - 1868) - 4 Jun 1864
- This might be the source of the confusion for the 1933 publication (no other major Carlton publication since 1933 has claimed Jacomb as a Carlton player)
I found all this out doing further research after visiting Walhalla over summer and taking some pictures of Jacomb's grave to include on the Blueseum.
So if anyone wants those pictures please send an email to the Blueseum!
The Kyabram Historical Society has sent me a copy of the obituary for Arthur Thomas Hawking. It states that he played almost continually for Kyabram from 1901 for about 12 Years. He played for a period with the South Melbourne league team.
Good stuff! There shouldn't be any doubt about it now.
- Jul 26, 2014
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Change Summary
Player currently identified as Tom Hawkins (one game for SM in 1904) should be
Arthur Thomas Hawking (note change of surname as well)
Born: 19 February 1882 at Redcastle, Victoria (Vic BDM 1882/9842) - note: exact date comes from Ancestry trees; no primary source found
Died: 15 December 1952 at Kew, Victoria (Vic BDM 1953/1721) - as per death notice, obit and grave
...interesting side note for australianfootball.com Oliver Gigacz : he was the uncle of Carlton player George Hawking
RedmanWasHere
Rarely in kitchens at parties.
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This would also necessitate a small change for the Tomahawk.
Tomahawk would, now, be the only Tom Hawkins in league history.
Newspapers coming to Trove over the next month or so
trove.nla.gov.au
Coming soon to Trove
As of January 2024, these items are being digitised and will soon appear on Trove. They are listed by state/territory of publication, then alphabetically by title. The year range being digitised is indicated in after the title. Titles have been funded for digitisation by various contributors...
trove.nla.gov.au
After the club was notified by family members that the DOB in the game's records for Collingwood player Wes McGaw was incorrect, it's been changed on his Collingwood Forever page: Wes McGaw
Oliver Gigacz
*Paul*
Oliver Gigacz
*Paul*
- May 23, 2010
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Like seeing a lot of 1970-2000 newspapers being digitised in SA.Newspapers coming to Trove over the next month or so
Coming soon to Trove
As of January 2024, these items are being digitised and will soon appear on Trove. They are listed by state/territory of publication, then alphabetically by title. The year range being digitised is indicated in after the title. Titles have been funded for digitisation by various contributors...
I hope Trove is not forced behind a paywall soon.
- May 23, 2010
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Possible first kick, first goal: Travis Payze.
He had 6 kicks (or 7 according to the Age) and 3 goals in his first game. According to recordings of the game online, when he kicked his second goal, the commentator noted that he had 4 kicks and 2 goals at that point.
Payze came on as 19th man just seven minutes into the game after Des Kennedy went off injured, and the Saints went goalless for the first quarter (Ross Oakley kicked their solitary behind). He almost got a kick as soon as he came on.
Any idea if he joins the club?
He had 6 kicks (or 7 according to the Age) and 3 goals in his first game. According to recordings of the game online, when he kicked his second goal, the commentator noted that he had 4 kicks and 2 goals at that point.
Payze came on as 19th man just seven minutes into the game after Des Kennedy went off injured, and the Saints went goalless for the first quarter (Ross Oakley kicked their solitary behind). He almost got a kick as soon as he came on.
Any idea if he joins the club?
- May 23, 2010
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But also some new additions:
Harry Hickey
trove.nla.gov.au
trove.nla.gov.au
Roy Files (third game)
trove.nla.gov.au
Bill Morrow (second game)
And an update - the Wikipedia page has Bill Smeaton scoring a goal with his first kick - Turns out he got three from three.
trove.nla.gov.au
And a few more that I've found on AFL Tables:
Mick Mulligan (2 goals, 2 kicks on debut, may be more as he kicked 3 goals from 6 kicks in game two)
Harry Hickey
Goal From First Senior Kick - The Herald (Melbourne, Vic. : 1861 - 1954) - 26 Jul 1937
HICKEY, a Footscray Seconds player, who made his debut in League football when he replaced Merrison on Saturday, scored a ...
trove.nla.gov.au
ST. KILDA REMAIN IN
trove.nla.gov.au
What Globe-experts saw. - Sporting Globe (Melbourne, Vic. : 1922 - 1954) - 21 Jul 1954
CARLTON for wards’ the song might well be “The legion of ...
trove.nla.gov.au
And an update - the Wikipedia page has Bill Smeaton scoring a goal with his first kick - Turns out he got three from three.
Bright Play At St. Kilda - The Herald (Melbourne, Vic. : 1861 - 1954) - 7 Apr 1951
St Kllda's early game today produced some bright football and several recruits showed improved form. ...
trove.nla.gov.au
And a few more that I've found on AFL Tables:
Mick Mulligan (2 goals, 2 kicks on debut, may be more as he kicked 3 goals from 6 kicks in game two)
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- May 23, 2010
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We can also add Samson Ryan who has 2 kicks from 2 goals in his second match so far. He hasn't had a kick since so that number has the potential to grow still.
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3 kicks, 3 goals. Only the 11th (12th if Smeaton counts) player to make it this far.
Nice work! Unfortunately, this doesn't make it clear just when the kick that ended up with Skilton came (out of his first 3 kicks):But also some new additions:
Harry Hickey
Goal From First Senior Kick - The Herald (Melbourne, Vic. : 1861 - 1954) - 26 Jul 1937
HICKEY, a Footscray Seconds player, who made his debut in League football when he replaced Merrison on Saturday, scored a ...Roy Files (third game)ST. KILDA REMAIN IN
Bill Morrow (second game)What Globe-experts saw. - Sporting Globe (Melbourne, Vic. : 1922 - 1954) - 21 Jul 1954
CARLTON for wards’ the song might well be “The legion of ...
And an update - the Wikipedia page has Bill Smeaton scoring a goal with his first kick - Turns out he got three from three.
Bright Play At St. Kilda - The Herald (Melbourne, Vic. : 1861 - 1954) - 7 Apr 1951
St Kllda's early game today produced some bright football and several recruits showed improved form. ...
And a few more that I've found on AFL Tables:
Mick Mulligan (2 goals, 2 kicks on debut, may be more as he kicked 3 goals from 6 kicks in game two)
But also some new additions:
<snip>
Roy Files (third game)
<snip>What Globe-experts saw. - Sporting Globe (Melbourne, Vic. : 1922 - 1954) - 21 Jul 1954
CARLTON for wards’ the song might well be “The legion of ...
At this stage, I would be a bit cautious about adding Files to the list.
In each of his previous two games (v Collingwood 12 June, and v Carlton 26 June) he is a replacement off the bench for at least half the last quarter...The Herald and Sporting Globe match reports give no clue as to whether he had a kick or not...the article you link to could well be referring to his first kick ever in VFL ranks, but it may pay to check other papers e.g The Sun (extraordinary that it is not on Trove yet !).
And, whilst an encouraging start noted at the time, Smeaton's effort doesn't make the list at all.But also some new additions:
<snip>
And an update - the Wikipedia page has Bill Smeaton scoring a goal with his first kick - Turns out he got three from three.
Bright Play At St. Kilda - The Herald (Melbourne, Vic. : 1861 - 1954) - 7 Apr 1951
St Kllda's early game today produced some bright football and several recruits showed improved form. ...
<snip>
He was playing in a pre-season practice match.
I can see why you thought Morrow belonged on the list, but the article's wording in his second game must mean "first kick of the game."But also some new additions:
<snip>
Bill Morrow (second game)
<snip>
When he debuted the week before, the match report comments on his good play with reference to him getting plenty of kicks
CARLTON
trove.nla.gov.au
And, whilst an encouraging start noted at the time, Smeaton's effort doesn't make the list at all.But also some new additions:
And an update - the Wikipedia page has Bill Smeaton scoring a goal with his first kick - Turns out he got three from three.
Bright Play At St. Kilda - The Herald (Melbourne, Vic. : 1861 - 1954) - 7 Apr 1951
St Kllda's early game today produced some bright football and several recruits showed improved form. ...
Bill Smeaton might still have managed the feat! This is from his debut game (where he kicked just the one goal):
There's a bit of a difference between "less than a minute" and "within a few seconds of the start", so who knows?!
It's probably rather likely that it was his first kick of the game.
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Yes, I agree.
Almost certainly his first kick, in fact, I think there is enough there from multiple sources to add him to the list.
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Well that's what I get for not checking.
Right now I'm looking through AFL Tables and listing players who got their first goal and first kick in the same game. I think it would be a good list to try and identify players who did achieve the feat but it's also helping identify players who did do it but aren't listed, provided the stats are accurate.
Players I found who aren't on the list (but worth double-checking):
Mick Mulligan (2 goals, 2 kicks on debut, may be more as he kicked 3 goals from 6 kicks in game two)
John Duthie (1 kick, 1 goal on debut)
Phil Evans (1 kick, 1 goal in second game, recorded no kicks in first game, may be more as he kicked 2 goals from 7 kicks in game three)
Daryl Cumming (1 kick, 1 goal on debut, may be more as he kicked 1 goal from 9 kicks in game three after having no kicks in game two)
Laurie Moloney (1 kick, 1 goal on debut, may be more as he kicked 1 goal from 10 kicks in game two)
Garry Foulds (1 kick, 1 goal on debut, may be more as he kicked 2 goals from 11 kicks in game two)
Round 11, 1975, has no stats available except for goals. Three players debuted, only one scored a goal on debut: John Lewis
Here's the list for all debutants between 1965 and 1969 if anybody wants to do some checking to whittle the list down:
Right now I'm looking through AFL Tables and listing players who got their first goal and first kick in the same game. I think it would be a good list to try and identify players who did achieve the feat but it's also helping identify players who did do it but aren't listed, provided the stats are accurate.
Players I found who aren't on the list (but worth double-checking):
Mick Mulligan (2 goals, 2 kicks on debut, may be more as he kicked 3 goals from 6 kicks in game two)
John Duthie (1 kick, 1 goal on debut)
Phil Evans (1 kick, 1 goal in second game, recorded no kicks in first game, may be more as he kicked 2 goals from 7 kicks in game three)
Daryl Cumming (1 kick, 1 goal on debut, may be more as he kicked 1 goal from 9 kicks in game three after having no kicks in game two)
Laurie Moloney (1 kick, 1 goal on debut, may be more as he kicked 1 goal from 10 kicks in game two)
Garry Foulds (1 kick, 1 goal on debut, may be more as he kicked 2 goals from 11 kicks in game two)
Round 11, 1975, has no stats available except for goals. Three players debuted, only one scored a goal on debut: John Lewis
Here's the list for all debutants between 1965 and 1969 if anybody wants to do some checking to whittle the list down:
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