Remove this Banner Ad

Resource List thread - Inaccuracy in official records

🥰 Love BigFooty? Join now for free.

He came from Port Melb and played cricket... from this article PERSONAL ITEMS - Record (Emerald Hill, Vic. : 1881 - 1954) - 13 May 1939 he was alive in 1939 but the current guy died in 1934 - I have a note "likely Ronald George Williams St John (1889 - 1965)"

Well atm George St John is a 30 years debutant for Richmond , which puts him around top 20 of oldest debutants. But an 1889 birthdate would probably seem more likely as an 19 yr old debutant.

After Richmond in 1909 he got permit to Port Melbourne FOOTBALL. - VICTORIAN ASSOCIATION. - The Age (Melbourne, Vic. : 1854 - 1954) - 27 May 1909

Then as per Demonwiki went to Melbourne in 1911.

Screen Shot 2024-02-20 at 11.04.09 am.png

That article you quote is very specific about his cricket career, so if our footballer did that then he is surely our guy.
And , I assume the 1965 dying St John, had a brother called Stanley as per the article.

I can see how Rodgers would have selected the St John of 1934, as he was looking for George as a first name, but that may not have been his birth name.
 
Nice pickup. I've added his full name to Wikipedia and AF, and corrected his WP infobox to include his time at Williamstown. His 'original team' is not Williamstown as such though – there is a rule on WP that such team cannot be a state league equivalent or higher club (they had to have come from somewhere beforehand).

A quick bit of Trove research has turned up that Harley was recruited from Spotswood, not Norwood. One can see how the error could have been made!

View attachment 1908492

Thanks for that and the info on WP protocols.


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app
 
Well atm George St John is a 30 years debutant for Richmond , which puts him around top 20 of oldest debutants. But an 1889 birthdate would probably seem more likely as an 19 yr old debutant.

After Richmond in 1909 he got permit to Port Melbourne FOOTBALL. - VICTORIAN ASSOCIATION. - The Age (Melbourne, Vic. : 1854 - 1954) - 27 May 1909

Then as per Demonwiki went to Melbourne in 1911.

View attachment 1909032

That article you quote is very specific about his cricket career, so if our footballer did that then he is surely our guy.
And , I assume the 1965 dying St John, had a brother called Stanley as per the article.

I can see how Rodgers would have selected the St John of 1934, as he was looking for George as a first name, but that may not have been his birth name.

He has the same DOB and DoD in the cricket records. He played in the South Melbourne First XI until 1922/1923, when the identified player would have been 44 or 45 years old.


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app
 
Thanks, that's super helpful. I had seen that website before; their search engine was no good to me! Even trying again this morning I couldn't find a result. Can you share a screenshot here? Cheers.
Search for John Cleary at Frenchs Forest Cemetery - gives photo showing this:
1708398281983.png
 

Log in to remove this Banner Ad

Search for John Cleary at Frenchs Forest Cemetery - gives photo showing this:
View attachment 1909169

FYI.
John Joseph "Jack" Cleary is one of the 60-odd names of Fitzroy players their historical group are trying to find an image of.
So if you see one in your travels, I can pass it on to them

Apparently he is the brother of Gentleman Jim Cleary.
 
Last edited:
Excuse the long post - but this is the list from the Fitzroy-Brisbane Historical Group of the 55-odd names of players they are missing a photo of (any type of photo will suffice). They've apparently exhausted all the avenues (footy clubs, ancestry, war memorial etc), but a few photo have subsequently been found in those avenues - so i guess the more eyes the more chances

So in your journey if you spot anything I can pass it on to them.
They've done well so far having located 1,100 player headshots over the last 4 years.

Henry ANDERSON - Kerang FC
1913 6 (0)
Born in Ararat - 23/5/1892
Died - Armadale - 30/10/1926

Ivan ASTRUC - Essendon Districts FC
1897 6 (1)
Born - Mauritius - 28/4/1876
Died North Melbourne 1905 - 28 Years Of Age - 9/4/1905

Sam BAKER - Collingwood Juniors FC
1902-1903 6 (0)
Born - Collingwood - 2/10/1874
Died Wahroonga NSW 2/1/1946

Maurie BARRETT - Morris & Walkers FC
1916 2 (1)
Born - Richmond - 4/6/1893
Died - Heidelberg - 9/11/1981


Doug BENNETT - Ivanhoe FC & Coburg FC
1917 4 (2)
Born - Woodend - 3/12/1894
Died - Euroa - 3/3/1975

Harold BOYD - Abbotsford FC
1932 11 (1)
Born - 2/2/1913
Died - 25/4/1971

Bernie BROPHY Shamrock FC
1909 1 (1)
Born - Carlton North - 3/1/1889
Died - Armadale Vic - 24/7/1965

Joe BROPHY - Shamrock FC
1910 2 (2)
Born - Carlton North - 5/4/1890
Died - Melbourne - 25/9/1972

Charles “Charlie” BYRNE - Preston FC
1916-1917 2 (1)
Born - Fitzroy - 23/2/1895
Died - East Melb - 30/6/1924

William “Bill” BYRNE - Preston FC & Brighton??
1917 10 (2)
Born - Fitzroy - 14/8/1896
Died - Fitzroy - 19/7/1930

Charlie CAMERON - Preston FC and Ormond College
1897 5 (1)
Born - Collingwood - 24/3/1874
Died - Fitzroy - 12/6/1936

Bill CAMPBELL - Preston Districts FC
1908 1 (0)
Born - Warrandyte South - 26/7/1883
Died - Melbourne - 9/7/1954

John CARTER - Ballarat FC
1920 7 (0)
Born - Murrumbeena-2/10/1894
Died - North Melbne - 19/2/1960

William CHARLESON - Campbells Creek FC -
1948 4 (0)
Born - 5/7/1929
Died - 17/9/1983

Jack CLEARY -Thornbury CYMS
1932 3 (0)
Born - 28/8/1911
Died - 14/2/1995
Brother of Gentleman Jim Cleary - South Melbourne FC


Alex DAVIDSON - Albion United FC
1896 - Fitzroy FC 7 (0)
1897-1898 - Fitzroy FC 4 (0)
1898 - North Melbourne VFA
Born - 12/8/1876
Died - 12/7/1951

Ray DAVIES - Preston FC
1954 1 (0)
Born - 26/9/1932
Died - 21/2/1984

Charlie DOHERTY - Ballarat FC
1898 2 (0)
Born - Lucknow - 23/1/1876
Died - Bairnsdale - 5/3/1961

William DREW - Fitzroy Juniors FC
1910 8 (4)
Born - Richmond - 7/2/1890
Died - Warragul - 30/7/1955

Steve FOLEY - Fitzroy Juniors FC
1927-1928 15 (0)
Born - 31/8/1902
Died - 22/2/1948

Orm FOWLER - St Kilda FC and Fitzroy Juniors FC
1913 - Fitzroy FC 1 (0)
1914-1915 - St Kilda FC 9 (11)
Born - Euroa - 4/12/1891
Died - Chelsea - 25/7/1963

Bob HALL - Fitzroy Juniors FC
1929 1 (0)
Born - Carlton - 25/10/1908
Died - 26/4/1999


George HUTCHINSON - Ballarat Imperials FC
1902 9 (0)
Born - Maryborough Vic - 6/12/1874
Died - East Melb - 22/5/1946

Harry JAMES - Roseneath FC
1897 1 (0)
Fitzroy - Kensington - 18/6/1877
Died - Fitzroy Nth - 13/10/1940

Charlie JENKINS - West Melbourne FC & Wonthaggi FC
1898 8 (0)
Born - Carlton - 17/6/1878
Died - ??

Fred MARKBY - Fitzroy Juniors FC
1911 2 (0)
Born - Carlton North 29/6/1892
Died - Parkville - 10/5/1952

Alby McDONALD - Yarrawonga FC & Numurkah FC
1902-1903 7 (1)
Born - Amphitheatre - Near Avoca - 27/2/1881
Died - Thornbury - 8/6/1961

Roy McDOUGALL - Port Melbourne Districts FC
1930-1932 8 (0)
Born - Port Melb - 2/7/1907
Died - 15/11/1993

Norm McLENNAN - North Fitzroy FC
1907-1908 7 (2)
Born - Ballarat East - 17/2/1887
Died of Typhoid - Isisford Qld - Near Longreach - 21/3/1909, in the Mining Industry, at 22 years of age.
Norm was the older brother, by 17 months, of Fitzroy FC stalwart, Harold “Lal” McLennan,

Arthur MIDDLETON - St Kilda FC & Windsor FC
1897 - St Kilda FC 1 (0)
1900 - Fitzroy FC 3 (1)
Born - Geelong - 7/6/1876
Died - Mosman NSW -17/5/1945

Tom MOLOUGHNEY - St Kilda FC & Leopold FC
1911 - Fitzroy FC 1 (0)
1915 - St Kilda FC - 1 (0)
Born - Melbourne - 8/10/1888
Died - Brighton - 27/7/1977

Alan MUIR - Ivanhoe Amateurs FC
1940-1942 6 (0)
Born - Fitzroy -2/1/1922
Died - 20/9/1996

Jack John Arch MUIRHEAD - St Kilda FC and Fitzroy Juniors FC
1897-1898 - Fitzroy FC 16 (3)
1900-1901 - St Kilda FC 33 (1)
Born - Campbellfield - 25/7/1876
Died - Queensland - 22/4/1958

Don MUNRO - Brunswick FC
1913 1 (0)
Born - Tungamah Vic - 1/6/1891
Died - 9/4/1954

Danny MURPHY - Fitzroy Juniors FC
1911 1 (0)
Born - Footscray - 22/2/1884
Died - Kew - 1/11/1956

Vic NANKERVIS - Balmain FC
1915 & 1918 - Essendon FC 6 (0)
1918 - Fitzroy FC 2 (1)
Born - Collingwood - 4/1/1893
Died - Ivanhoe - 4/1/1973
WW2 - AIF

Herbert NOLAN - Essdn Dist FC
1897-1898 4 (0)
Born - Wyndham Vale - 21/11/1875
Died - Box Hill - 21/12/1933

Frank O’KEEFE - Southern Districts FC
1916 1 (1)
Born - South Melb - 24/4/1898
Died - Heidelberg - 26/6/1958

James PORTER - Fitzroy Juniors FC
1910-1911 & 1913 15 (14)
Born - Ballarat - 30/7/1892
Died - Melbourne - 12/1/1936

Harry POWDITCH - Preston Juniors FC
1917-1918 Fitzroy FC 2 (0)
1919-1920 Northcote FC 28 (16)
Born - Footscray - 21/5/1894
Died - Reservoir - 21/1/1963

John POWER - East Melbne FC
1898-99 10 (0)
1898 FFC Premiership Player
Born - Bendigo - 10/4/1874
Died - Prahran - 16/5/1958

Len RICHARDSON - Northcote FC VFA
1910 1 (0)
Born - Malvern - 10/2/1891
Died - Heidelberg - 7/4/1924

Fred H SCOTT - Yarra Glen
1910 3 (1)
Born - Steels Creek - Near Yarra Glen - 21/10/1885
Died - Bentleigh - 20/4/1937

Robert SCOTT - Preston FC
1919 9 (0)
Born - 27/10/1894
Died - 23/10/1990

George F SHAW - Fitzroy Church of Christ FC
1898 5 (1)
Born - Ballarat - 6/3/1887
Died - Blackburn - 24/3/1954

Sid SMITH - Manjimup FC
1919 1 (3)
Northcote 1919-20
WW1 - France for the duration of the War
Born - Fitzroy - 21/11/1888
Died - Heidelberg - 20/6/1954

Bob TEASDALE - South Fremantle FC
1914 1 (0)
Born - Footscray - 28/6/1891
Died - Spotswood - 24/6/1953

Jim TULLOCH - Pembroke FC
1898 1 (0)
Born - Richmond - 27/6/1878
Died - Oakleigh - 22/3/1944

Bill TURNER - Fitzroy Juniors FC
1924 3 (1)
Born - 6/12/1901
Died - 3/1/1967

Eric WATSON - Kew FC
1911 1 (1)
Born - Kew - 11/9/1893
Died - Mere - Wiltshire UK - Near Somerset and Dorset - January 1977

Bert WHITE - Northcote Juniors FC
1927 14
Born - 2/11/1906
Died - 2/9/1988

Henry YAGER - Fitzroy Juniors FC
1897 1 (0)
Born - Fitzroy North - 28/11/1874
Died - Melbourne - 15/2/1915
 
Last edited:
Excuse the long post - but this is the list from the Fitzroy-Brisbane Historical Group of the 58-odd names of players they are missing a photo of (any type of photo will suffice). They've apparently exhausted all the avenues (footy clubs, ancestry, war memorial etc), but a few photo have subsequently been found in those avenues - so i guess the more eyes the more chances

So in your journey if you spot anything I can pass it on to them.
They've done well so far having located 1,100 player headshots over the last 4 years.

Tim CURRAN - St Kilda FC and Fitzroy Juniors FC - Primrose
1897 - Fitzroy FC 3 (0)
1900 - St Kilda FC 10 (1)
Born - Collingwood - 12/2/1875
Died - Clifton Hill - 14/9/1915
I do remember seeing this bunch of photos quite a while back, and this chap was among them: FOOTBALL UMPIRES, - League and Association. - Melbourne Punch (Vic. : 1855 - 1900) - 27 Jul 1899
1708510096650.png
We have Tim Curran playing for Collingwood Juniors 1898-99, in between his stints at Fitzroy and St Kilda. I hope the quality of that one is considered good enough.
 
I do remember seeing this bunch of photos quite a while back, and this chap was among them: FOOTBALL UMPIRES, - League and Association. - Melbourne Punch (Vic. : 1855 - 1900) - 27 Jul 1899
View attachment 1910326
We have Tim Curran playing for Collingwood Juniors 1898-99, in between his stints at Fitzroy and St Kilda. I hope the quality of that one is considered good enough.
That will be fine. I think they are just happy to have any image as a starting point.
I'll make them aware of your find. Thanks
 
That will be fine. I think they are just happy to have any image as a starting point.
I'll make them aware of your find. Thanks
1708511184920.png
This should be Roy Snell (a photo): PHIL MATSON COACHED R. SNELL IN THE ART OF FOOTBALL - News (Adelaide, SA : 1923 - 1954) - 7 Jul 1927
Though this story suggests he wouldn't have played for West Adelaide prior to playing for Fitzroy:
1708511272682.png
Another photo here: CLEARANCE FOR SNELL - End of Long Football Fight TWO OTHERS REFUSED - News (Adelaide, SA : 1923 - 1954) - 7 Apr 1927
There's a few of him in the Adelaide papers (1927 onwards). One article called him Robert - I'm not sure if that's a mistake or not.

This seems to me as if it should be the player's birth reg (in WA):
1708512456392.png
That doesn't match this:
1708512508199.png
1708512601668.png
I just aren't certain that this is the 1924 Fitzroy one-gamer.
 
Last edited:
View attachment 1910337
This should be Roy Snell (a photo): PHIL MATSON COACHED R. SNELL IN THE ART OF FOOTBALL - News (Adelaide, SA : 1923 - 1954) - 7 Jul 1927
Though this story suggests he wouldn't have played for West Adelaide prior to playing for Fitzroy:
View attachment 1910340
Another photo here: CLEARANCE FOR SNELL - End of Long Football Fight TWO OTHERS REFUSED - News (Adelaide, SA : 1923 - 1954) - 7 Apr 1927
There's a few of him in the Adelaide papers (1927 onwards). One article called him Robert - I'm not sure if that's a mistake or not.
That last link has a nice headshot of him - I'll send that one to them and make them aware it came from you.
Nice get.
 
That last link has a nice headshot of him - I'll send that one to them and make them aware it came from you.
Nice get.
One I just added is much better, but I'm trying to figure out if Robert Snell and Roy Snell are one and the same!! Something isn't right! There's a Roy Snell playing for Prahran in 1926, and Snell from Fitzroy went to that club in 1925. There's still a Snell playing for Prahran in 1927, so I'm thinking it must be two people!
 
Last edited:
View attachment 1910337
This should be Roy Snell (a photo): PHIL MATSON COACHED R. SNELL IN THE ART OF FOOTBALL - News (Adelaide, SA : 1923 - 1954) - 7 Jul 1927
Though this story suggests he wouldn't have played for West Adelaide prior to playing for Fitzroy:
View attachment 1910340
Another photo here: CLEARANCE FOR SNELL - End of Long Football Fight TWO OTHERS REFUSED - News (Adelaide, SA : 1923 - 1954) - 7 Apr 1927
There's a few of him in the Adelaide papers (1927 onwards). One article called him Robert - I'm not sure if that's a mistake or not.

This seems to me as if it should be the player's birth reg (in WA):
View attachment 1910370
That doesn't match this:
View attachment 1910373
View attachment 1910375
I just aren't certain that this is the 1924 Fitzroy one-gamer.
Personaly I think the Magarey Medal Winner looks very simliar to the 1927 player which would mean it isnt the Roy Snell they are looking for Roy Snell 1927.png
 

Remove this Banner Ad

Personaly I think the Magarey Medal Winner looks very simliar to the 1927 player which would mean it isnt the Roy Snell they are looking forView attachment 1910395
It's the wrong R. Snell, it seems!!: Robert Snell - Wikipedia
So that's a bit of a pity! This has Robert Snell debuting for West Adelaide in 1927, but no sign of Roy Snell playing for them, so I still wonder if the club of origin for the Fitzroy 1924 player is correct: Debut Dates - West Adelaide Football Club

It still seems pretty unlikely to me that the Fitzroy player would have been with West Adelaide prior to playing in the VFL, as he (Victor Roy Snell) seems to have had a Victorian background/upbringing.
1708516290652.png
1708516332445.png
I think Brunswick Juniors (rather than West Adelaide) is much more likely to be correct for his club of origin.
 
Last edited:
liaising with the Fitzroy historian, and also Norwood SA historian - they wonder if the West Adelaide reference on Roy Snell's wikipedia is because the user assumed he was the same as the Margarey Medallist.

So I think your idea is the best idea.
Let's assume the 1924 Fitzroy player is called Roy Snell.

Any other existing details (ie: west adelaide , is he connected to margarey medallist etc etc) let's put to one side and simple go back to basics with the only fact that seems proven, that is 1924 Fitzroy player is called Roy Snell


Edit:
Snell Fitzroy 1924.
Gets Permit to Prahran May 2, 1925. (see below)
Screen Shot 2024-02-21 at 10.56.24 pm.png

Looks like he is from Brunswick Juniors, as per this review of his only game at Fitzroy


Screen Shot 2024-02-21 at 10.57.56 pm.png


Edit: Just noticed you posted the Brunswick Juniors thing at the same time.

Edit:
Looks like he was with Brunswick Juniors as early as 1923 as well
Screen Shot 2024-02-21 at 11.05.18 pm.png



Edit:

He's back to Brunswick Juniors in 1928.
So Brunswick Juniors at least 1923 -1925.
Fitzroy 1925.
Prahran 1925-1928
Brunswick Juniors 1928.

(This dude aint leaving the state - he has no connection to SA at all I reckon
Screen Shot 2024-02-21 at 11.07.33 pm.png
 
Last edited:
liaising with the Fitzroy historian, and also Norwood SA historian - they wonder if the West Adelaide reference on Roy Snell's wikipedia is because the user assumed he was the same as the Margarey Medallist.

So I think your idea is the best idea.
Let's assume the 1924 Fitzroy player is called Roy Snell.

Any other existing details (ie: west adelaide , is he connected to margarey medallist etc etc) let's put to one side and simple go back to basics with the only fact that seems proven, that is 1924 Fitzroy player is called Roy Snell
Yep, I agree with that. Please check the bit about Brunswick Juniors I've just added to my previous post!!
 
Re: Roy Snell – he is listed in "The Encyclopedia" as Roy V. Snell, which is going to be Roy Victor Snell per Vic BDM

Screenshot 2024-02-21 23.03.43.png

I've just updated his page on WP.

Robert Snell, interestingly, only had a month of death on WP. It doesn't look like he had a middle name. I've been able to find the full details on Ancestry; I've also updated WP now.

Screenshot 2024-02-21 23.07.44.png
 
Re: Roy Snell – he is listed in "The Encyclopedia" as Roy V. Snell, which is going to be Roy Victor Snell per Vic BDM

View attachment 1910423

I've just updated his page on WP.

Robert Snell, interestingly, only had a month of death on WP. It doesn't look like he had a middle name. I've been able to find the full details on Ancestry; I've also updated WP now.

View attachment 1910428
Kill two birds with one stone - love it.
See my post above - permit had him as V. R Snell.

Btw, I just looked at the Weekly Times 1929 football team photo of Brunswick and alas he isn't in it

35Daicos - I've been sent a large email chain from Fitzroy historian/Norwood historian regarding Snell and their search for him. DM me your email addy again and I'll forward it on to you tomorrow for you to look over. TL : DR He and his wife Eileen moved to Kinglake and Whittlesea in 1970s.
 
Last edited:

🥰 Love BigFooty? Join now for free.

FYI.
John Joseph "Jack" Cleary is one of the 60-odd names of Fitzroy players their historical group are trying to find an image of.
So if you see one in your travels, I can pass it on to them

Apparently he is the brother of Gentleman Jim Cleary.
CLEARY John Joseph Birth
CLEARY, Mary Whitcroft
CLEARY, Edward Joseph
Carlton
1911
70009/1911

CLEARY Jas Les Wm Birth
Mary WHITCROFT
Edw
CARLTON
1914
19983/1914
 
I'm pretty keen to redeem myself after the R. Snell debacle, so I'm hoping this really is the right chap!!:
1708520510888.png
1708520548863.png
It should be:
1708521083821.png
From Ancestry:
1708521167160.png
This^ is meant to be from 1925 (Army cadet). He looks older than 18 to me, but these photos do seem to be linked to the right person:
1708521651807.png

1708520976539.png
1708521910307.png
 
Last edited:
1708525682478.png
1708525751276.png
From Ancestry:
1708525640171.png
1708526029179.png
This is meant to be him, though obviously from well after his playing days. I can't guarantee these folks on Ancestry have the right people in these photos, but just hope they know what they're doing!
 
Last edited:
Hey 35Daicos are you keeping track of the ones you’ve had no luck with finding a photo, so that we are less likely to double up in searching at this early stage? Cheers
Apart from Boyce, Curran, Henry (and Snell), the only ones I've looked at are Powditch, Teasdale and Tulloch (no luck with them).
 

Remove this Banner Ad

Resource List thread - Inaccuracy in official records

🥰 Love BigFooty? Join now for free.

Back
Top