Resource List thread - Inaccuracy in official records

[35Daicos]

SA Genealogy has death 3 April and birth as unknown - but the publication date was 17 April so it can be inferred that 15th is more correct

TAPE

Jamie Nigel

Kathy & Peter

Birth

17-Apr-1974

TAPE

Jamie Nigel (Tapey)

03-Jan-2003

28

Death

06-Jan-2003

The last dates are publication dates

Thanks for that

 

[rbartlett]

Been uploading a heap of super8/home movie footage on my YT channel relating to Essendon etc, and I suspect there would quite a few 'guernsey number changes' required down the track.

For instance - the unfurling of Essendon's 1965 flag which was on Rd 1 1966 has No. 39 and No. 40 which arent in the list we have. Robert Shaw (former player) says No. 39 on the vision seems to be Don McKenzie, and No. 40 may be Ted Fordham (who usually wears No. 20).

 

[the croucher]

Been uploading a heap of super8/home movie footage on my YT channel relating to Essendon etc, and I suspect there would quite a few 'guernsey number changes' required down the track.

For instance - the unfurling of Essendon's 1965 flag which was on Rd 1 1966 has No. 39 and No. 40 which arent in the list we have. Robert Shaw (former player) says No. 39 on the vision seems to be Don McKenzie, and No. 40 may be Ted Fordham (who usually wears No. 20).

Haven't any match report evidence to support Robert Shaw's thoughts, but my earliest memories of watching the last quarter replays we used to get certainly makes me inclined to agree with him. #39 definitely looks like McKenzie, and #40 has the height and build of Fordham I reckon.

 

[rbartlett]

Rd 9 1957 footage posted shows St Kilda No. 29 wearing a crazy version of his guernsey number (looks like upside 6 or backwards 9)
Russell Holmesby - St Kilda historian - has confirmed that that is Bryant Hocking and he did wear No. 29 in 1957. (He sent me a seaprate image showing Hocking's torn No.29 guernsey from Round 5 earlier - which probably explains the strange 9 on the Rd 9 match)


Summary:
Changed Bryant Hocking to No. 29 for St Kilda 1957 season. And update his wiki page to show his death in the Deaths thread

 

[Connor7395]

Noticed while doing a scoring progression for Footscray vs North Melbourne in Round 7, 1986.

David Ceglar is listed as #22 on AFL Tables, but he is wearing #51 in this match. He only played rounds 6-10 that season and a further two games in 1987, so my guess is he switched to #22 for 1987 only. He takes the first shot for goal at about 1:30 in.



Summary:
Change David Ceglar to #51 for the 1986 season.
(side note, this was Ceglar's first kick in league football and he missed, so first kick/first goal is off the table for him)

 

[Connor7395]

Noticed while doing a scoring progression for Footscray vs North Melbourne in Round 7, 1986.

David Ceglar is listed as #22 on AFL Tables, but he is wearing #51 in this match. He only played rounds 6-10 that season and a further two games in 1987, so my guess is he switched to #22 for 1987 only. He takes the first shot for goal at about 1:30 in.



Summary:
Change David Ceglar to #51 for the 1986 season.
(side note, this was Ceglar's first kick in league football and he missed, so first kick/first goal is off the table for him)

Now onto the actual scoring of the game:

David Dwyer is credited with one behind, but his shot bounces to the ground towards the boundary line and then gets punched through by David Ceglar at 31:15. This looks more like a rushed behind.
Peter German is credited with two behinds and Peter Jonas is credited with one behind. However, German kicks one behind at 39:20, and Jonas kicks two behinds at 21:35 and 1:40:05.
Paul Spargo and Donald McDonald are each credited with two behinds. However, Spargo kicks one behind at 1:30:20 and McDonald kicks three behinds at 4:30, 8:50 and 51:40.

Summary:
Amendments for North Melbourne in Round 7, 1986, no score for David Dwyer (-1 behind), four rushed behinds (+1 behind), one behind for Peter German (-1 behind), two behinds for Peter Jonas (+1 behind), one behind for Paul Spargo (-1 behind), three behinds for Donald McDonald (+1 behind)

 

[Connor7395]

Scoring check for Round 22, 1977 between Richmond and St Kilda brings up one minor discrepancy. Jim Jess is credited with two behinds and Bruce Monteath with three. A check confirms Jess kicked three (6:40, 46:50 and 1:23:30) and Monteath kicked two (56:15 and 1:32:40).

Summary: Amendments for Richmond in Round 22, 1977, three behinds for Jim Jess (+1 behind) and two behinds for Bruce Monteath (-1 behind)

 

[stemline]

1999 R12 Haw v StK behind correction -

All online references have Mark Graham kicking no behinds in this game and Joel Smith kicking 1.

Full game is on youtube, per below Graham kicks Hawthorn's 4th behind in the 2nd qtr. Joel Smith does not kick a behind in this game.

This looks like a transcribing error as the papers the following day (at least The Age) correctly had Graham as the scorer of 1 behind rather than Smith.



Summary -
1999 Rnd 12 Haw v StK - Mark Graham plus 1 behind, Joel Smith minus 1 behind.

 

[Oliver G]

Scoring check for Round 22, 1977 between Richmond and St Kilda brings up one minor discrepancy. Jim Jess is credited with two behinds and Bruce Monteath with three. A check confirms Jess kicked three (6:40, 46:50 and 1:23:30) and Monteath kicked two (56:15 and 1:32:40).

Summary: Amendments for Richmond in Round 22, 1977, three behinds for Jim Jess (+1 behind) and two behinds for Bruce Monteath (-1 behind)

AF has been updated with all your recent amendments.

1999 R12 Haw v StK behind correction -

All online references have Mark Graham kicking no behinds in this game and Joel Smith kicking 1.

Full game is on youtube, per below Graham kicks Hawthorn's 4th behind in the 2nd qtr. Joel Smith does not kick a behind in this game.

This looks like a transcribing error as the papers the following day (at least The Age) correctly had Graham as the scorer of 1 behind rather than Smith.



Summary -
1999 Rnd 12 Haw v StK - Mark Graham plus 1 behind, Joel Smith minus 1 behind.

AF has been updated.

 

[Oliver G]

Btw, I thought it may interest this forum to know that 'Swamp' is re-building the AFLs database from scratch as it was old and couldn't handle any new changes introduced (AFLW etc etc).

So SR and Col are still our go to people for them to decide if a change is accept or not by the AFL.
'Swamp' will be the guy who inputs the data into the database eventually once that database is built. (I dont know if it will be available to public or not etc etc )

Edit: Actually the process is I will be putting the changes into a spreadsheet, and bit by bit (when he asks for them), I will be sending them to Swamp to input. He will liaise with SR should he have queries regarding our research.

Sorry to bring up an old post Rhett but I only just noticed the edit. I take it that this now means that Swamp has the authority to approve changes or is that changes still need to go through either SR or Col.

 

[rbartlett]

Sorry to bring up an old post Rhett but I only just noticed the edit. I take it that this now means that Swamp has the authority to approve changes or is that changes still need to go through either SR or Col.

My understanding is that any changes he may be unsure about he will liaise with SR/Col. Everything else gets the okay.
(Plus I haven't really been collating changes in the spreadsheet for a while. But we've at least got the 'summary' line on the changes so its easier for me to go back and add in).

 

[stemline]

If it helps at all, here are all the corrections I have posted over the last year in one sheet, with links to youtube evidence and also the relevant BigFooty post.

 

[Gigz]

Hi everyone. If I'm doing this wrong or posting in the wrong spot please let me know. (No doubt Oliver G will!)

In the process of researching Essendon's Dave Currie for my book about one-gamers I have discovered that he appears to have not scored a goal as is recorded in Tables and Australian Football.

According to the Argus, the Australasian, Sportsman and Table Talk, the goal attributed to Currie was kicked by Abe Watson.

Official records also have Charlie Moore kicking 4 goals and Arthur Cleghorn 2, but all four papers, along with The Age, have Moore and Cleghorn each kicking 3.

The goalkickers are listed in these papers as follows:
Essendon: Hall 4, Cleghorn 3, Moore 3, Gavin 2, Barr, Tenbrink, Watson, Waugh
St Kilda: A Stewart 2, T Blake, Shaw, Smith

AFL Tables and Australian Football currently lists them as:
Essendon: Hall 4, Moore 4, Cleghorn 2, Gavin 2, Barr, Tenbrink, Currie, Waugh
St Kilda: A Stewart 2, T Blake, Shaw, Smith

LINKS

The Argus: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/9835917
Sportsman: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/227729725
Table Talk: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/145861541/17399890
The Age: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/191491729
The Australasian: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/138667416

 

[rbartlett]

Bill Wilson's wife was Merle Ruby Wilson (nee Neilson) who died in 2013 (the linked notice clearly names her as wife of the footballer!) - unfortunately none of the death notices I can find name the children, but from Ancestry trees he had three children

1. William Phillip Wilson (1951-2005) - he had son
2. Moana Teressa Wilson (married name was Lea, now seems to have returned to Wilson) - who is still alive and running businesses in Mount Gravatt area of Brisbane and has children - she must be around 65-70 by now and may be traceable
3. Another son (can't find a name but was living)

Moana Lea-Wilson has a tree on Ancestry but in was created in 2007 and looks like it hasn't been updated in the last 10 years (her mother's death is the most recent event in the tree)

Update
Got a call from Moana ! today. So thank you all for looking into this.
Moana is the daughter in law - she married Kym (who is Billy's son)

Thank you

 

[35Daicos]

The club has just been informed by the daughter of Collingwood player Brian Gray that the AFL's records have his DOB wrong, and that it should be 21 February 1937.
Wikipedia has:

Brian GRAY

There aren’t many Collingwood footballers who can say they’ve played footy at the Olympics. But Brian Gray can.

forever.collingwoodfc.com.au

The change has been made on Collingwood Forever, and the AFL chaps will be advised.

Oliver G
*Paul*

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

In 1895, a player named “Young” appeared for Essendon in Rd 12 & Rd 13 – and is referred to in several articles as an old player under an assumed name. In The Age report for Rd 14 he was reported to be “in hospital”

Mark Pennings books on the VFA era suggest that “Young” was Bill Christian, full name William Pattison Christian, born in 1867 who played 1891-93 and also appeared in the first three rounds of the 1895 season.

Bill Christian (and his brothers) moved to Boolarra in Jun 1895 and on 27 July 1895, when “Young” played for Essendon against Carlton, local Gippsland papers report that W. Christian captained Boolarra in a match against Traralgon. There is also a report of W. Christian greeting a visitor to Boolarra on Fri 9 Aug (the day before Rd 14 when “Young” was apparently in hospital)

It seems very probable that “Young” was not Bill Christian but I haven’t found any firm evidence of the player’s actual identity. Given he played earlier in the year against Norwood, and other articles ([1])during the year it seems like Colin Campbell is a likely candidate, but thought I’d ask if anyone on this forum could find anything more definitive?

 

[stemline]

1926 Rnd 2 NM v Haw - Qtr score correction

Official records appear to have the qtr time scores incorrectly stated as NM 1.2 to Haw 3.2.

All match reports (The Age, The Argus, The Herald, Sporting Globe) describe North kicking 3 goals in the first qtr (Metcalfe 2, Smith 1), and Hawthorn kicking 1 (by Ennis).

The Argus seems to be the culprit for the error, inverting the qtr time scores in their summary. The Football Record followed suit.

However all the ones that have it correct, have it as NM 3.2 to Haw 1.3.

The Sporting Globe


The Herald



Summary -
1926 Rnd 2 NM v Haw - Correct Hawthorn's 1QT score from 3.2 20 to 1.3 9. Correct NM's 1QT score from 1.2 8 to 3.2 20. All other qtr x qtr scores remain the same.

 

[35Daicos]

1926 Rnd 2 NM v Haw - Qtr score correction

Official records appear to have the qtr time scores incorrectly stated as NM 1.2 to Haw 3.2.

All match reports (The Age, The Argus, The Herald, Sporting Globe) describe North kicking 3 goals in the first qtr (Metcalfe 2, Smith 1), and Hawthorn kicking 1 (by Ennis).

The Argus seems to be the culprit for the error, inverting the qtr time scores in their summary. The Football Record followed suit.

However all the ones that have it correct, have it as NM 3.2 to Haw 1.3.

The Sporting Globe
View attachment 2239957

The Herald
View attachment 2239964


Summary -
1926 Rnd 2 NM v Haw - Correct Hawthorn's 1QT score from 3.2 20 to 1.3 9. Correct NM's 1QT score from 1.2 8 to 3.2 20. All other qtr x qtr scores remain the same.

Nice one. It seems incredible this hasn't been corrected after 99 years! The Argus seems to have the 1/4 time score right in the match description, at least (though they're out by a point for the half-time difference between the two sides):

 

[35Daicos]

Harden Dean - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

This chap is in the game's records with the above DOB, but it seems certain it should be 30 October 1913: https://images.findagrave.com/photos/2020/182/157634508_b253a15b-42ad-4be0-87f1-a6c1095775ec.jpeg


His father was Herbert Harden Dean, so this will be the birth notice:

He gave this as his DOB when he enlisted:

His first name is shown as Philip in his army records. You can see both Philip and Phillip on the electoral roll, though I've mostly seen it as the latter. They really should have it correct on his headstone, but I'm still not certain which is meant to be correct!

Harden Dean | Demonwiki

Demonwiki

demonwiki.org

Here's another article which has him as captain-coach of the Seconds in 1942:

Supermercado

Summary: change DOB from 13 October 1913 to 30 October 1913. Perhaps look into spelling of first name also.

 

[Bandit55]

I’m wondering whether Albert Barker aka Bert/Abdul played one or two games for Footscray in 1929.

According to AFL Tables he played in Rounds 11 and 15 in that year. It seems clear that he played in Round 11:

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/244102651?searchTerm="barker" and "footscray"

However, it appears that he did not play in Round 15 as he wasn’t named in the teams in The Herald or Sporting Globe:

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/243998280

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/182526816?searchTerm=barker

From what I can find, Albert Barker originally joined Footscray from Woodend in 1926:

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/201641329?searchTerm=barker woodend

He then transferred to Sunshine in June 1926:

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/74728400?searchTerm=barker

According to The Weekly Times, Barker transferred from Sunshine to Castlemaine 1927:

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/222615536?searchTerm=barker sunshine

In March 1928 he unsuccessfully applied to coach Sunshine:

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/75219848?searchTerm=bert barker woodend

He then seems to return to Footscray in late March 1928:

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/202324891?searchTerm=barker woodend

Interestingly, according to the Sporting Globe and The Herald, ‘Barker’ was in the Footscray team which played Fitzroy on 12 May 1928:

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/184267604?searchTerm=barker footscray

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/...90/1928/05/12/page/26542000/article/243989112

However, according to AFL Tables, Harry Baker was in the team, not Barker:

https://afltables.com/afl/stats/games/1928/060719280512.html

The following weekend’s papers make no mention of Barker and consider that (Harry) Baker played in the Fitzroy game.

Then on 27 April 1929, The Herald again names Barker in Footscray team:

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/244452830?searchTerm="barker" and "footscray"

However, it seems certain that it is Harry Baker as Barker was not at Footscray early in the 1929 season. According to newspaper reports, Barker did not start training at Footscray until June during the 1929 season.

In June, The Age reported that Barker, the former player, who is now a member of the police force, is also training at Footscray:

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/205024000?searchTerm="barker" and "footscray"

The Herald reported that Footscray had hopes to shortly play Barker, a follower from Woodend:

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/244102352?searchTerm="barker" and "footscray"

After the 1929 season, A E Barker transferred from Footscray to Brunswick:

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/203084482?searchTerm=barker footscray

https://www.thevfaproject.org/pages/Players/Barker,_Abdul.php

In addition, Albert Barker was the elder brother of Hawthorn’s Jack and George Barker, and Footscray’s Peter Barker is their cousin.

 

[35Daicos]

Spotted while looking into the Barker/Footscray story! This one is quite clear-cut!:

Ted Esposito (Melbourne) pulled out of the side, due to a bereavement. Charlie Barnes isn't named in the official side, but he took his place. This refers to the 1929 Rd. 14 game: https://australianfootball.com/game/view/2598 || https://afltables.com/afl/stats/games/1929/061119290803.html


The Rd. 15 Football Record had this to say:

Poor old Barnes got dropped the next week anyway!!

Summary: 1929 Rd. 14 Barnes to replace Esposito in Melbourne side.

Supermercado
Another one of yours!

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

I’m wondering whether Albert Barker aka Bert/Abdul played one or two games for Footscray in 1929.

According to AFL Tables he played in Rounds 11 and 15 in that year. It seems clear that he played in Round 11:

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/244102651?searchTerm="barker" and "footscray"

However, it appears that he did not play in Round 15 as he wasn’t named in the teams in The Herald or Sporting Globe:

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/243998280

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/182526816?searchTerm=barker

...

In addition, Albert Barker was the elder brother of Hawthorn’s Jack and George Barker, and Footscray’s Peter Barker is their cousin.

From team lists in The Herald / Sporting Globe linked above, the player listed who is not currently credited with a game in Rd 15 is Frank Walshe (who played in both Rd 14 and Rd16).

In the Australasian report of the match it was reported that "On the losing side Walsh followed untiringly and well, keeping going to the end." In the Rd 16 Football Record, reporting on the Rd15 game, we also have:

This seems pretty clear

Summary: 1929 Rd 15 Walshe to replace Barker in Footscray side

 

[rbartlett]

Round 4 1945 Richmond v Melbourne currently has
Don Fraser with 3 goals and Bill Morris with 2 goals

AFL Tables - Melbourne v Richmond - Sat, 12-May-1945 2:45 PM - Match Stats

But I came across a handwritten stats sheet that a supporter filled out in the 1945 season, which had those goals reversed (Morris with 3 and Fraser with 2).

Looking at Trove.
The Age list Morris with 3, and Fraser with 2



The Sun News lists Morris 3 and Fraser 2


The Sporting Globe has Morris 3, Fraser 2


Is that enough evidence to change Round 4 1945 and add a goal to Morris and remove a goal from Fraser?
Currently the 1945 Annual Report has Morris on 8 goals that year and Fraser on 30 goals that year.
So the change would make:
Morris 9 goals that year, and Fraser 29 goals that year.
Morris' overall goal total would therefore be 99. Fraser's would be 124.

 

[35Daicos]

Round 4 1945 Richmond v Melbourne currently has
Don Fraser with 3 goals and Bill Morris with 2 goals

AFL Tables - Melbourne v Richmond - Sat, 12-May-1945 2:45 PM - Match Stats

But I came across a handwritten stats sheet that a supporter filled out in the 1945 season, which had those goals reversed (Morris with 3 and Fraser with 2).

Looking at Trove.
The Age list Morris with 3, and Fraser with 2
View attachment 2254915


The Sun News lists Morris 3 and Fraser 2
View attachment 2254920

The Sporting Globe has Morris 3, Fraser 2
View attachment 2254927

Is that enough evidence to change Round 4 1945 and add a goal to Morris and remove a goal from Fraser?
Currently the 1945 Annual Report has Morris on 8 goals that year and Fraser on 30 goals that year.
So the change would make:
Morris 9 goals that year, and Fraser 29 goals that year.
Morris' overall goal total would therefore be 99. Fraser's would be 124.

It really should be. Richmond scored all their goals in the first (7) and third (6) quarters, and the Sporting Globe on Wednesday had this to say:


The Saturday Sporting Globe match description matches the above (as you'd probably expect). The Argus has the same goalkickers:

The Rd. 5 Football Record doesn't help, but it seems everyone has Morris 3 and Fraser 2 except for the official records! Strange one, really!

 

[rbartlett]

Summary:
Round 4 1945 Richmond v Melbourne change Bill Morris to 3 goals, and Don Fraser to 2 goals.