Live Smoke Signal Chat - The Chief Donald McDonald to discuss NMFC trade period on club website.

[GarnerSmash]

This slightly bugs me. Would prefer to to have more mature bodies come to the club via trades rather than the treasure from VFL. AFL experience needs to become a prerequisite now.

Yeah but who and for how much?

 

[Hard_to_Beat]

This slightly bugs me. Would prefer to to have more mature bodies come to the club via trades rather than the treasure from VFL. AFL experience needs to become a prerequisite now.

The answer was basically NO.

 

[Daz]

Yeah but who and for how much?

I hear Sam Lonergan and Henry Slattery are available. They'll lead us to a flag.

Interesting that the club is keen to use the RD to pick up mature agers rather than the ND.

 

[tazaa]

Yeah but who and for how much?

I can handle Hamish, Pedo, Azza leaving for more opportunity.
But I would prefer it if the club looked to replace them with more senior bodies.
If we copped injuries to Thompson, Grima, Hansen or Dish we wont make finals.
If Goldi goes down we will suffer.
We will battle but we would be ****ed.
Id like to think H, Pedo and Azza are on standby in case we get injuries that way we dont suffer.
But them not being there and blooding more youth is going to set us back another 2 years.
Sydney and Collingwood topped up to win flags. Geelong topped up with Mooney and Ottens and Harley and the rewards paid off.
I might be blowing the lid off a week or a year too early but all i know is that you need depth to win a flag. AFL standard depth. And its not come finals. Its during the year when theyll need to be called upon.
I think Collingwood had Fraser, Medhurst, Obree, Lockyer, Davis, Rusling and other senior players to call on in 2010 in case s**t hit the roof.
Basically the majority of emergencies named in 2012 are going. If they are replaced with kids and we have a bad injury run we will not cope and another year of rebilding will occur.

If there is no one out there we can bring to the club then no one should leave. Whether theyre happy or not. Applies to Pedo, H etc. They are contracted. Sometimes lifes a bitch and not everyone can be pleased.

But if by monday week we have H, Pedo, Azza, Flash out and hit the draft for 18 year olds- we are in trouble.

 

[tazaa]

I hear Sam Lonergan and Henry Slattery are available. They'll lead us to a flag.

Interesting that the club is keen to use the RD to pick up mature agers rather than the ND.

Club by end of trade week could have very well traded out mature bodies and brought in kids by draft time.
If we arent so lucky with injuries were in strife. Hold on to them or replace with quality.

Everyone seems to think we want list cloggers. We did that under JYD. Almost killed us.
If you get rid of a McIntosh you bring in someone of equal value. Not potential.

 

[GarnerSmash]

I'm with you re H specifically and understand what you are saying, but again tazza, who do we target and for how much?

 

[tazaa]

I'm with you re H specifically, but again tazza, who do we target and for how much?

Thats whats annoying me Tron. We already have a young list. Getting rid of mature players for players with no AFL experience is dangerous. It will set us back a year or two.
If they go we need to replace them with the same quality.
Im not talking about picking up other teams trash.
Im talking like for like trading.
* draft picks. We are not always going to strike gold in November.
The premiers and grand finalist of the past 6 years all topped up.
We are not and the less big bodies you have to perform and or to come in and perform a role the less likelihood you have of being successful.

No way is this related to JYDs hilding on to 90s premiership players and bringing in duds around them.
Our nucleus is set. Just need to make it stronger. The draft WILL not do that.

 

[SnowRoo]

NORTH Ballarat wingman Dean Towers was just another VFL footballer trying to make his mark in the game when he went into an ABC-televised match against Collingwood in round three this year.

The then 21-year-old had shown undoubted athleticism during his few games in the Roosters' seniors, but in this match he showed his football talent as well.

 

[GarnerSmash]

Thats whats annoying me Tron. We already have a young list. Getting rid of mature players for players with no AFL experience is dangerous. It will set us back a year or two.
If they go we need to replace them with the same quality.
Im not talking about picking up other teams trash.
Im talking like for like trading.
**** draft picks. We are not always going to strike gold in November.
The premiers and grand finalist of the past 6 years all topped up.
We are not and the less big bodies you have to perform and or to come in and perform a role the less likelihood you have of being successful.

No way is this related to JYDs hilding on to 90s premiership players and bringing in duds around them.
Our nucleus is set. Just need to make it stronger. The draft WILL not do that.

I get what you are saying tazza but i'm not necessarily sure I agree with it in full. I am all for bringing in a mature player or two only if they make our team better than those they are replacing. I see no point in removing guys like Garlett or Pedo from the list only to bring in players, via trading our picks, who will sit in the twos until injury hits our preferred playing group. That to me is a waste of an opportunity to add players who COULD develop into quality best 22 types for the longer term and rob our recruiting department of the opportunity to bring in guys who they think could turn out to be real bargains.

Right now our lack of real midfield depth concerns me somewhat, particularly those capable of playing the inside roles. We have placed our faith for this position in Cunners, JZ, Swallow and Wells, with Adams and Levi capable of playing in there too. We loose 3 of those first four and we will struggle. That said, take Mitchell, Lewis and Sewell out of the Hawks, or Kennedy, Jack and Hannebury out of the Swans and I'm not sure if they would go too well either. Yes, we do appear to be placing considerable faith in our young group and seem to be backing the younger guys to come through together. Our progress will depend on how well players like Bastinac, Macmillan, Mullett, McKenzie, Harper and Atley develop to support the crew who run through the inside. The actions of the football department seem to point to them having significant faith in these guys, enough to try to bring in more young players behind them in the hope of adding in depth of quality, rather than adding a safety net of players who are not best 22 but can hold their own if needed. Indeed it seems to me as if rather than pushing for a flag tomorrow, the FD are trying to put together a list for a quality top four challenger for many seasons to come. It is a bit of a risk if we get hit hard by injury but could also pay off massively if all goes well. Imagine the currency we could have on our list by good recruitment and development we have players outside our 22 who would be best 22 at many other clubs. When we are a heavyweight we could have currency to bring in absolute quality to address any weakness we may have, or just to strengthen already strong areas of the team by trading youngsters outside the 22 and first round picks for the right target (cough David Swallow cough). Of course there are many if's associated with this scenario.

It is an interesting discussion about two different list building philosophies. Trading in worked for the Swans partly because of their smarts i identifying talent and partly because their list was in a good position to do so. I'm not sure we are at the point of topping up just yet unless they are best 22.

 

[Tas]

This slightly bugs me. Would prefer to to have more mature bodies come to the club via trades rather than the treasure from VFL. AFL experience needs to become a prerequisite now.

What is the point of a mature body if you don't bump, tackle or shepherd?

 

[Daz]

Depth is for young kids. Even the best teams don't have old blokes with limited upside sitting in the 2's. When you get an injury, you try a kid. Sometimes they get exposed, other times they cement a spot in the best 22.

 

[roobear]

I think anyone who didn't find benefit in the answers today is going to be very hard to please.

 

[roobear]

BTW post #159 and #160....did Tas and B Tron swap bodies???

 

[tazaa]

I get what you are saying tazza but i'm not necessarily sure I agree with it in full. I am all for bringing in a mature player or two only if they make our team better than those they are replacing. I see no point in removing guys like Garlett or Pedo from the list only to bring in players, via trading our picks, who will sit in the twos until injury hits our preferred playing group. That to me is a waste of an opportunity to add players who COULD develop into quality best 22 types for the longer term and rob our recruiting department of the opportunity to bring in guys who they think could turn out to be real bargains.

Right now our lack of real midfield depth concerns me somewhat, particularly those capable of playing the inside roles. We have placed our faith for this position in Cunners, JZ, Swallow and Wells, with Adams and Levi capable of playing in there too. We loose 3 of those first four and we will struggle. That said, take Mitchell, Lewis and Sewell out of the Hawks, or Kennedy, Jack and Hannebury out of the Swans and I'm not sure if they would go too well either. Yes, we do appear to be placing considerable faith in our young group and seem to be backing the younger guys to come through together. Our progress will depend on how well players like Bastinac, Macmillan, Mullett, McKenzie, Harper and Atley develop to support the crew who run through the inside. The actions of the football department seem to point to them having significant faith in these guys, enough to try to bring in more young players behind them in the hope of adding in depth of quality, rather than adding a safety net of players who are not best 22 but can hold their own if needed. Indeed it seems to me as if rather than pushing for a flag tomorrow, the FD are trying to put together a list for a quality top four challenger for many seasons to come. It is a bit of a risk if we get hit hard by injury but could also pay off massively if all goes well. Imagine the currency we could have on our list by good recruitment and development we have players outside our 22 who would be best 22 at many other clubs. When we are a heavyweight we could have currency to bring in absolute quality to address any weakness we may have, or just to strengthen already strong areas of the team by trading youngsters outside the 22 and first round picks for the right target (cough David Swallow cough). Of course there are many if's associated with this scenario.

It is an interesting discussion about two different list building philosophies. Trading in worked for the Swans partly because of their smarts i identifying talent and partly because their list was in a good position to do so. I'm not sure we are at the point of topping up just yet unless they are best 22.

That's the half of it. Injuries. We don't have a plan b and if plan a goes haywire I.e. losing first 22 players we are screwed.
And it is why I'm against trading away mature players full stop. This is my main concern. We aren't going to get a quality ruckmen a number 1 ruck at that, or one of if not the most quality utilities in the afl in Pedo or a 30-40 goal a year dead eye full forward in Azza if they depart.
There is nothing on the market who will come to north of the same quality and who could perform a role. There is no Luke ball, no Kennedy, no McGlynn even McLean has worked out. No jolly, no Barlow etc.
So we should hold onto these players.
We are yet to see how good these 3 could be to perform to a 4 year old plus midfield plus wells if need be.
Pick 36 and the rookie from nth ballarat will make our squad weaker and more vulnerable.

 

[Tas]

Thats whats annoying me Tron. We already have a young list. Getting rid of mature players for players with no AFL experience is dangerous. It will set us back a year or two.

We aren't getting rid of anyone who is in our best team that is mature. How will it set us back if these guys can't get into our side or play consistent footy?

We aren't even forcing most of these players out, they are choosing to jump ship instead of fight for a spot.

How are you going to resolve this problem any differently than what the club has?

If they go we need to replace them with the same quality.

We are. We are filling depth players and guys that can't crack a game with equivalent quality, a pick or prospect player that we can salvage for them.

Im not talking about picking up other teams trash.
Im talking like for like trading.
**** draft picks. We are not always going to strike gold in November.

There is no like for like. Find me a McIntosh, Pedersen and Garlett who are on the outer who want to come and be depth players for us. They don't exist. Each wants to leave so there is no point sticking your head in the sand.

We don't need to recreate the same problem. We have good depth but we are not in our premiership window yet, we have guys 21-24 in our core group and 25+ as our depth. It is just the wrong place at the wrong time, we need the depth there when we are in our window and we need more maturity in our core players.

If we were within our window, these depth players wouldn't want to leave.

The premiers and grand finalist of the past 6 years all topped up.
We are not and the less big bodies you have to perform and or to come in and perform a role the less likelihood you have of being successful.

We are picking up mature aged players but unless they play a role in your best side they will not last long on the list.

No way is this related to JYDs hilding on to 90s premiership players and bringing in duds around them.
Our nucleus is set. Just need to make it stronger. The draft WILL not do that.

People seem to forget we have picked up Anthony, Edwards, Gibson, Grima, McKinley, Pedersen, Richardson, Sierakowski and Thompson as mature aged players. The ones who are in our best 25 are not leaving, the ones who are not are at risk of being cut or are looking at their options.

If the club finds a good quality mature aged player they will go after them but we are not going to draft spuds just because our average age is too low. If the players are not there then they are not there. You can't just say you are going to recycle and that is your recipe for success, you can't manufacture the players being available. For every Sydney Swans you need a Hawthorn who lets someone like Kennedy go or Geelong who lets Mumford go.

There is no young gun on the verge of greatness that we are letting go. If we gave all the mediocre mature aged players games then Bastinac would be playing for GWS, Swallow for GC and god knows what other A grade talent we would have lost elsewhere. Then people would be bitching we didn't give games to the kids and lost them all for the spuds.

Our core group has resisted being poached because they see what we are building. It is sad our 'one-eyed' supporters don't have the same kind of faith.

 

[tazaa]

We aren't getting rid of anyone who is in our best team that is mature. How will it set us back if these guys can't get into our side or play consistent footy?

The boys want out because they think they won't get a gig come round 1. But we were remarkably lucky this year injury wise. And the boys wanting out will hurt us for depth and experience. What we will get in return for them will make the squad weaker. That is what I'm against. H and Pedo are contracted. Sometimes life's tough and we need to tell them oh are required players. An 18 yo is not more important to us now nor for the next 3 years than a H or Pedo.

We aren't even forcing most of these players out, they are choosing to jump ship instead of fight for a spot.

But the club is not fighting to keep them. They are content with getting more draft picks. I don't agree with this.

How are you going to resolve this problem any differently than what the club has?
I hope the club sees the value of keeping them rather than trading them.

We are. We are filling depth players and guys that can't crack a game with equivalent quality, a pick or prospect player that we can salvage for them.
There is no like for like. Find me a McIntosh, Pedersen and Garlett who are on the outer who want to come and be depth players for us. They don't exist. Each wants to leave so there is no point sticking your head in the sand.

They believe they won't get an opportunity at north. But they are contracted. The club should put the list first and if it feels it is weakened by the loss then don't do it.

We don't need to recreate the same problem. We have good depth but we are not in our premiership window yet, we have guys 21-24 in our core group and 25+ as our depth. It is just the wrong place at the wrong time, we need the depth there when we are in our window and we need more maturity in our core players.

I believe we are in our window. The gap is not that great and we should be ready and aggressive from now.
If we were within our window, these depth players wouldn't want to leave.
I don't think the club wants to challenge for a flag yet. We should be pulling all strings to,win the thing next year.

We are picking up mature aged players but unless they play a role in your best side they will not last long on the list.

We need to target afl mature players not vfl gems if we are to lose h or a Pedo. There is none.

People seem to forget we have picked up Anthony, Edwards, Gibson, Grima, McKinley, Pedersen, Richardson, Sierakowski and Thompson as mature aged players. The ones who are in our best 25 are not leaving, the ones who are not are at risk of being cut or are looking at their options.

The remaining squad looks like a kindergarten. When is the right time to strike for glory?

If the club finds a good quality mature aged player they will go after them but we are not going to draft spuds just because our average age is too low. If the players are not there then they are not there. You can't just say you are going to recycle and that is your recipe for success, you can't manufacture the players being available. For every Sydney Swans you need a Hawthorn who lets someone like Kennedy go or Geelong who lets Mumford go.

Like for like again. If we aren't benefited from the trade the club can not go thru it and keep the contracted player. Tough luck.

There is no young gun on the verge of greatness that we are letting go. If we gave all the mediocre mature aged players games then Bastinac would be playing for GWS, Swallow for GC and god knows what other A grade talent we would have lost elsewhere. Then people would be bitching we didn't give games to the kids and lost them all for the spuds.

Completely not my point tas.

Our core group has resisted being poached because they see what we are building. It is sad our 'one-eyed' supporters don't have the same kind of faith.

Its not being one eyed. It's having an opinion and being concerned that the club may not have the youth and maturity to win our fifth flag. The balance in the list imo of losing h, Pedo, Azza etc will be out of whack if we bring in 3 eighteen yo to replace them.

 

[Hard_to_Beat]

They'll probably re-sign Hansen and trumpet it as some momentous event.

LOL.

I even frighten myself.