Confirmed Live Trade 3: Carlton receive #19 and future 1st from Adelaide for their future 1st

RobR

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Question is with 28 top 10 picks would anyone have done a bad job?
What is he going to do next year when he likely has a pick in the teens and thats all in the first 2 rounds.

Thats the true test of a recruiter.

What if SOS had to choose between Kelly and Boyd. Would he have chosen Boyd?
What if he had to choose between Coniglio and Butine or Greene and Sumner?

His job was akin to running a casino. Almost impossible to fail.
Don't deal in what if's, also we have Micheal Agresta and Paul Brody who are very good with late picks. It won't be SOS's job alone.
 

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DangerSloane

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Bunts is in our best 22 currently. Patton certainly would be if not injured and Plowman is in the Blues best

RUOK?
Plowman isnt as good as Marchbank and thats just Carlton backmen that were from GWS
He's a pretty average player.

Remember these guys were top 10 picks, supposed to be stars, not just solid AFL contributors.

A few have injury excuses.
 

Isaac Cumming No 1

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Plowman isnt as good as Marchbank and thats just Carlton backmen that were from GWS
He's a pretty average player.

Remember these guys were top 10 picks, supposed to be stars, not just solid AFL contributors.

A few have injury excuses.
It's incredibly arrogant to suggest your subjective opinion is fact. It just isn't.

In 2011 we had a lot of picks, there's an element of randomness in the order anyway.
 

RobR

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It's incredibly arrogant to suggest your subjective opinion is fact. It just isn't.

In 2011 we had a lot of picks, there's an element of randomness in the order anyway.
It's incredibly arrogant to suggest your subjective opinion is fact. It just isn't.

In 2011 we had a lot of picks, there's an element of randomness in the order anyway.
I don't think he understands what Silvagni had to do at GWS. He had a heap of picks and had to fill all positions, he was bound to miss a couple as anyone would.
 

DangerSloane

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It's incredibly arrogant to suggest your subjective opinion is fact. It just isn't.

In 2011 we had a lot of picks, there's an element of randomness in the order anyway.
I never presented it as fact.
You can never factually say one player is better than another, especially when there isnt a lot in it.
You don't think Marchbank is the better player I presume?
 

DangerSloane

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I don't think he understands what Silvagni had to do at GWS. He had a heap of picks and had to fill all positions, he was bound to miss a couple as anyone would.
Well thats what I'm getting at. Did he do a good job? Or did he just do the same job that anyone could've done in that position.
My view is that its more the latter and that he's ridden his stunning playing career into the role back at CFC.
 
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Marchbank is a slightly different player, but yes, he’s far superior - or at least projects to be a gun intercept defender.

Plowman is now a dour, dependable back pocket, but that wasn’t his role at junior level, and these days is a stopper who can also play on smaller players if required.
 

RobR

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Well thats what I'm getting at. Did he do a good job? Or did he just do the same job that anyone could've done in that position.
My view is that its more the latter and that he's ridden his stunning playing career into the role back at CFC.
IMO if GWS win a flag in the next two years he's done a good job. Coaches have to take some responsibility as well.
 

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The only thing I like about this Carlton trade is it removes incentive for them to tank yet another year, something that ought to be beneficial for the club's culture and many would argue is long overdue.

However I just don't have sufficient faith that the Carlton recruiting team was able to see something in Stocker seventeen other clubs weren't. Not to the extent they should willingly gamble the first pick of a team coming off a two win season, for that of another who'd won the Minor Premiership only two years earlier with only pick 19 to make up the difference.
Although I congratulate SOS on being bold and deciding not to die wondering and realize its often a fine line between madness and genius, this deal strikes me as far more likely to be attributed to the former by history. In fact should Carlton finish near the foot of the ladder as most of us expect and Adelaide get their mojo back -and there was already signs of that happening late last season- this could well go down as near the worst AFL trade of all time.

Just imagine the pressure on that poor kid Stocker's shoulders before he even plays an AFL game. He virtually holds Silvagni's job in his hands.
 

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The only thing I like about this Carlton trade is it removes incentive for them to tank yet another year, something that ought to be beneficial for the club's culture and many would argue is long overdue.

However I just don't have sufficient faith that the Carlton recruiting team was able to see something in Stocker seventeen other clubs weren't. Not to the extent they should willingly gamble the first pick of a team coming off a two win season, for that of another who'd won the Minor Premiership only two years earlier with only pick 19 to make up the difference.
Although I congratulate SOS on being bold and deciding not to die wondering and realize its often a fine line between madness and genius, this deal strikes me as far more likely to be attributed to the former by history. In fact should Carlton finish near the foot of the ladder as most of us expect and Adelaide get their mojo back -and there was already signs of that happening late last season- this could well go down as near the worst AFL trade of all time.

Just imagine the pressure on that poor kid Stocker's shoulders before he even plays an AFL game. He virtually holds Silvagni's job in his hands.
Carlton made the right move here if they rate Stocker that high (reports seem to be that he was 6th on their board). Better to downgrade next year's pick in return for getting a "top 6 talent", actual draft points of the trade are basically irrelevant.

My only concern is how they could possibly have rated Stocker in the top 6. Rankine, Walsh and Lukosius obviously had to be above him, as well as Bailey Smith. That puts him at 5. Then we have Blakey, Thomas and the two Kings. He has to be getting rated above at least 3 of those guys for him to be 6th on their board. This could very well be another Bontempelli moment, where only a small number of clubs rate the player so high while others view them a bit later down the order, but there is no guarantee of that.
 

Isaac Cumming No 1

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I never presented it as fact.
You can never factually say one player is better than another, especially when there isnt a lot in it.
You don't think Marchbank is the better player I presume?
I'll give you that one. To my generation if you make statements of fact it's taken literally and is rude. To the younger generations it's generally acceptable.

I still strongly disagree with your reasoning though. Setting ul a list for a new club is a huge and difficult task, not made easier by the fact the team are all getting to know each other.

It was a very big and unique opportunity, and a very big risk without real precedent to help.

As for Marchbank and Plowman they're different types if defenders. My view is Plowman is cool under pressure and makes good decisions, that's valuable in a young team. Marchbank has the higher upside if he can put the injury setbacks behind him.
 

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Carlton made the right move here if they rate Stocker that high (reports seem to be that he was 6th on their board). Better to downgrade next year's pick in return for getting a "top 6 talent", actual draft points of the trade are basically irrelevant.

My only concern is how they could possibly have rated Stocker in the top 6. Rankine, Walsh and Lukosius obviously had to be above him, as well as Bailey Smith. That puts him at 5. Then we have Blakey, Thomas and the two Kings. He has to be getting rated above at least 3 of those guys for him to be 6th on their board. This could very well be another Bontempelli moment, where only a small number of clubs rate the player so high while others view them a bit later down the order, but there is no guarantee of that.
I don't have a problem with Carlton potentially overrating Stocker, they won't be the first or the last club to overrate a draftee.

The issue for me is entirely the price they paid for him, if they had've traded say their 2019 2nd + 3rd round picks for Adelaide's 2018 pick 19, few of us would've batted an eyelid. At the end of the day giving up the future first pick of a team coming off a two-win season is remarkably reckless, particularly when half the reward is a player seventeen other clubs didn't rate especially highly and the value of the other half is predicated on factors beyond Carlton's control.
 
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The only thing I like about this Carlton trade is it removes incentive for them to tank yet another year, something that ought to be beneficial for the club's culture and many would argue is long overdue.

However I just don't have sufficient faith that the Carlton recruiting team was able to see something in Stocker seventeen other clubs weren't. Not to the extent they should willingly gamble the first pick of a team coming off a two win season, for that of another who'd won the Minor Premiership only two years earlier with only pick 19 to make up the difference.
Although I congratulate SOS on being bold and deciding not to die wondering and realize its often a fine line between madness and genius, this deal strikes me as far more likely to be attributed to the former by history. In fact should Carlton finish near the foot of the ladder as most of us expect and Adelaide get their mojo back -and there was already signs of that happening late last season- this could well go down as near the worst AFL trade of all time.

Just imagine the pressure on that poor kid Stocker's shoulders before he even plays an AFL game. He virtually holds Silvagni's job in his hands.
I agree to some extent, even if it is quite speculative. We’re partly hoping the trade impels us to perform given there’s now no high pick on offer (assuming Adelaide finish top 8).

It’s a calculated risk though, and although it seems far-fetched given our last year, we’re backing ourselves to improve beyond where most anticipate us to finish, or at least get to a spot which validates the trade. I don’t necessarily see anything wrong with our evaluation of the trade itself; I assume our assessment of Stocker is partly based on our needs, to which we need another inside bull who can also impact on the outside. I also think we see Stocker as a reasonably safe selection, and wouldn’t have attempted the trade without a fairly rosy view of how he will develop, which should be at worst be as a comfortable best 22 midfielder and at best a very good player.

I don’t know how we view Adelaide’s prospects, but there are likely 11-12 clubs who could finish in the top 8. They might just see 2017 as an anomaly rather than a pure indication of where Adelaide is at, although both outcomes are possible - Adelaide pushing through top 4 or mid-range. It’ll be interesting to see how Brodie Smith goes after a year out of the game and if their midfield can stay on the park. Injecting some draftees will also benefit them IMO.

Definitely a risk from our end, but where we are at with our rebuild, and factoring in an extra 12 months development into a young mid, I don’t think the consequences are that big if we have another putrid season. We have enough top draft picks to build a good future team, we just need to get experience into the squad - both through trades and getting games into young players.
 
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RobR

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The only thing I like about this Carlton trade is it removes incentive for them to tank yet another year, something that ought to be beneficial for the club's culture and many would argue is long overdue.

However I just don't have sufficient faith that the Carlton recruiting team was able to see something in Stocker seventeen other clubs weren't. Not to the extent they should willingly gamble the first pick of a team coming off a two win season, for that of another who'd won the Minor Premiership only two years earlier with only pick 19 to make up the difference.
Although I congratulate SOS on being bold and deciding not to die wondering and realize its often a fine line between madness and genius, this deal strikes me as far more likely to be attributed to the former by history. In fact should Carlton finish near the foot of the ladder as most of us expect and Adelaide get their mojo back -and there was already signs of that happening late last season- this could well go down as near the worst AFL trade of all time.

Just imagine the pressure on that poor kid Stocker's shoulders before he even plays an AFL game. He virtually holds Silvagni's job in his hands.
Could also go down as the best trade of all time. Yeah i'm guessing as well.
 
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Even under the worst possible scenario (Adelaide get Pick 1, we get Pick 18) I think we’re happy to back the picks we’ve already brought in.

We’ve already taken Weitering, McKay, Curnow, Cuningham, SPS, Dow, O’Brien, Walsh and Stocker as first round draftees, plus former 1st rounders Plowman, Setterfield, Marchbank, Kennedy who have been brought in to be long-term players.

Adding another (likely) Top 5 would be nice, but we’ve already got several top tier draftees from this rebuild on our list, and history has shown a strong football department is a far better predictor of success than draft metrics. I’d much rather we get this right than continue stockpiling draft picks.
 
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DangerSloane

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Even under the worst possible scenario (Adelaide get Pick 1, we get Pick 18) I think we’re happy to back the picks we’ve already brought in.

We’ve already taken Weitering, McKay, Curnow, Cuningham, SPS, Dow, O’Brien, Walsh and Stocker as first round draftees, plus former 1st rounders Plowman, Setterfield, Marchbank, Kennedy who have been brought in to be long-term players.

Adding another (likely) Top 5 would be nice, but we’ve already got several top tier draftees from this rebuild on our list, and we know that history has shown a strong football department is a far better predictor of success than draft metrics. I’d much rather we get this right than continue stockpiling draft picks.
Not really relevant though is it?

That "happy to back someone in" statement could be used for literally any scenario.

Oh gold coast lost both captains and their best two players - "its ok we're happy to back the young guys coming through"
 
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Not really relevant though is it?

That "happy to back someone in" statement could be used for literally any scenario.

Oh gold coast lost both captains and their best two players - "its ok we're happy to back the young guys coming through"
Of course, but we’ve got a heap of young talent on our list already.

Another top pick is always advantageous, but given we’ve got a glut of early picks on our list, it’s not absolutely imperative to bring in another (likely) Top 5 pick.

Losing an early pick isn’t going to make or break us - especially given we’re still bringing in two more first round picks in through the trade.
 

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Gibbs from memory had a decent game but cant remember him doing anything spectacular or anything that really stood out in my mind
Watch the game again. Gibbs was pretty epic getting Carlton going in that third quarter after the Blues got down by 30 points. From that time to when Carlton got back to within a point, he was involved in 3 of the 5 goals that brought his team back into it, intercepted at least 3 forward thrusts by the Tigers, got first hands on the ball at stoppages a number of times, either clearing it or nullifying it. He and later Judd, really got the ball rolling and a number of other players jumped on the gravy train.

Im not going to claim Gibbs would’ve been the difference, but geez he would’ve been handy for the Crows when the game was still up for grabs in the third quarter. He’s player who can turn it on, so you just never know.
 

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Watch the game again. Gibbs was pretty epic getting Carlton going in that third quarter after the Blues got down by 30 points. From that time to when Carlton got back to within a point, he was involved in 3 of the 5 goals that brought his team back into it, intercepted at least 3 forward thrusts by the Tigers, got first hands on the ball at stoppages a number of times, either clearing it or nullifying it. He and later Judd, really got the ball rolling and a number of other players jumped on the gravy train.

Im not going to claim Gibbs would’ve been the difference, but geez he would’ve been handy for the Crows when the game was still up for grabs in the third quarter. He’s player who can turn it on, so you just never know.
Wont argue that he didnt have a good game but to suggest he was the reason why the blues won i think is stretching it, I was at the game and also watched it on replay and during both occasions i felt it was Judd that got the blues going and Betts / Waite were just amazing with their dominance in the foward line and Nick Duigan was another along with Robinson that stood out in my mind. But after so much insistence i decided to have a look and see what was reported


"CHRIS Judd has inspired Carlton to a thrilling comeback victory over Richmond in the first elimination final at the MCG on Sunday.

The Blues clawed their way back from a 32-point deficit to win by 20 points before a record elimination final crowd of 94,690.

Carlton only earned its finals spot after seventh-placed Essendon was ruled out of September action by the AFL and looked set for an early exit when they trailed by more than five goals points at the three-minute mark of the third term.

But former skipper Judd, returning after a three-week absence with a knee injury, got the Blues back into the game with an outstanding 11-possession third term that sparked them to a memorable 18.8 (116) to 14.12 (96) victory."


Carlton Goals : Waite 4, Duigan 4, Betts 3, Garlett 2, Robinson 2, Warnock, Scotland, Judd
Carlton Best: Judd, Murphy, Curnow, Duigan, Betts, Waite, Gibbs

After reading this article i feel vindicated that what i remember was correct in my opinion
http://www.afl.com.au/match-centre/2013/24/rich-v-carl


But thats all besides the point, Richmond had 13 different players to the team that played the 2017 grand final and a very very different game plan as well as being a team that was on fire accounting for 3 of the best teams of 2017 in every game easily so to suggest that Bryce Gibbs would have been the difference between a Crows win or Loss i just dont buy that.

Anyway this is not a thread to debate the 2017 GF or if Crows would have won the flag if they had gibbs as we will never know and probably best to agree to disagree and leave it to the crows supporters to think about it.
 
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