Traded 2018 Live Trade: Carlton trade #4 (2019) to Adelaide for #19 (2018) and #9 (2019)

Sep 16, 2014
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Myself and others will come back with all sorts of things because we arent biased.
You sound like you're 'hoping' hes doing a good job rather than actually knowing he is.

We wont know just yet, and to be fair I dont think the problem has really been drafting, its more of a developmental problem.
Whether that comes from throwing kids in the deep end too early or other factors, I dont know.
Whether that has changed, nobody knows yet.
What now you don't think it's a draft problem? We've been telling you for years it has been a developmental problem.
 

Isaac Cumming No 1

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I reckon if you asked most GWS fans they'd say Silvagni did a pretty decent job up there, all things considered.

Very different and difficult set of circumstances to deal with and they've been a strong team for a few years now despite not yet going all the way.

I know you're trying to find fault in anything and everything to do with him but you're right, ultimately I don't care what happens at the Giants because it's of no relevance to what happens at Carlton.

All we should be judging the job he's doing at Carlton is what's actually happening at Carlton, and to this point in time I'm very comfortable, including with the decision to pull the trigger on the trade this thread is for.

No doubt you and others will come back with all sorts of things but I reckon the reality of the situation is most opposition fans don't have a full understanding of what he has done, why he has done it, and how it has been of benefit to us.
I agree he did a good job. It's absurd to say the case has been made he didn't.

Dave Matthews was right when he said our cap problems were the result if previous list managers being very good at their jobs IMO.
 
Jul 13, 2012
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I agree he did a good job. It's absurd to say the case has been made he didn't.

Dave Matthews was right when he said our cap problems were the result if previous list managers being very good at their jobs IMO.

Question is with 28 top 10 picks would anyone have done a bad job?
What is he going to do next year when he likely has a pick in the teens and thats all in the first 2 rounds.

Thats the true test of a recruiter.

What if SOS had to choose between Kelly and Boyd. Would he have chosen Boyd?
What if he had to choose between Coniglio and Butine or Greene and Sumner?

His job was akin to running a casino. Almost impossible to fail.
 
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Jul 14, 2005
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SOS has only had one pick in the teens at Carlton: Stocker, so hard to judge until he’s had a few seasons.

At GWS he picked up Smith, Greene, Corr, Jaksch, Adams and McCarthy with picks in the teens.
 
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SOS has only had one pick in the teens at Carlton: Stocker, so hard to judge until he’s had a few seasons.

At GWS he picked up Smith, Greene, Corr, Jaksch, Adams and McCarthy with picks in the teens.

He also picked Sumner with 10, Buntine with 5, Boyd and Patton with 1, O'Roarke with 2, Plowman with 3.

Theres a fair few top level misses among a lot of hits.
 
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He also picked Sumner with 10, Buntine with 5, Boyd and Patton with 1, O'Roarke with 2, Plowman with 3.

Theres a fair few top level misses among a lot of hits.

I’m talking specifically about players picked in the teens.

Sumner was unlucky with injuries, and lost his pace over the course of his short career which was his main weapon. Never really got a good run at either club.

Buntine has spent a lot of time injured but is a solid enough player - not really a pick 5 though, and was picked on a few intangibles (leadership etc). The development of Haynes and deployment of Tomlinson in defence has partly impacted how he is used in the GWS lineup.

Both Boyd and Patton were consensus first choices. Boyd was traded after year one and Patton’s had a stack of injuries, and more recently form issues.

O’Rourke was undoubtably a reach. An easy first round choice, and helped by a weak first-round, but didn’t have any real POD and spent most of his career injured: at both GWS and Hawthorn. I think SOS wanted as an outside mid due to the spate of inside mids GWS took in their first draft, as well as their pre-selections etc in Shiel, Treloar. Was either him or Toumpas, and now both look like busts.

Plowman was a poor selection, and a huge reach. Hard to see the logic given GWS took a heap of mid-sized defenders the previous draft, and there were queries over his pace even at under 18 level. Still baffling, and I suspect SOS may have wanted to draft two teammates with 2&3 (O’Rourke and Plowman are both from the Macedon ranges) to help with retention, which didn’t work out in any case.
 
Sep 16, 2014
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Question is with 28 top 10 picks would anyone have done a bad job?
What is he going to do next year when he likely has a pick in the teens and thats all in the first 2 rounds.

Thats the true test of a recruiter.

What if SOS had to choose between Kelly and Boyd. Would he have chosen Boyd?
What if he had to choose between Coniglio and Butine or Greene and Sumner?

His job was akin to running a casino. Almost impossible to fail.
Don't deal in what if's, also we have Micheal Agresta and Paul Brody who are very good with late picks. It won't be SOS's job alone.
 
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Bunts is in our best 22 currently. Patton certainly would be if not injured and Plowman is in the Blues best

RUOK?

Plowman isnt as good as Marchbank and thats just Carlton backmen that were from GWS
He's a pretty average player.

Remember these guys were top 10 picks, supposed to be stars, not just solid AFL contributors.

A few have injury excuses.
 

Isaac Cumming No 1

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Plowman isnt as good as Marchbank and thats just Carlton backmen that were from GWS
He's a pretty average player.

Remember these guys were top 10 picks, supposed to be stars, not just solid AFL contributors.

A few have injury excuses.
It's incredibly arrogant to suggest your subjective opinion is fact. It just isn't.

In 2011 we had a lot of picks, there's an element of randomness in the order anyway.
 
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It's incredibly arrogant to suggest your subjective opinion is fact. It just isn't.

In 2011 we had a lot of picks, there's an element of randomness in the order anyway.
It's incredibly arrogant to suggest your subjective opinion is fact. It just isn't.

In 2011 we had a lot of picks, there's an element of randomness in the order anyway.
I don't think he understands what Silvagni had to do at GWS. He had a heap of picks and had to fill all positions, he was bound to miss a couple as anyone would.
 
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It's incredibly arrogant to suggest your subjective opinion is fact. It just isn't.

In 2011 we had a lot of picks, there's an element of randomness in the order anyway.

I never presented it as fact.
You can never factually say one player is better than another, especially when there isnt a lot in it.
You don't think Marchbank is the better player I presume?
 
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I don't think he understands what Silvagni had to do at GWS. He had a heap of picks and had to fill all positions, he was bound to miss a couple as anyone would.

Well thats what I'm getting at. Did he do a good job? Or did he just do the same job that anyone could've done in that position.
My view is that its more the latter and that he's ridden his stunning playing career into the role back at CFC.
 
Jul 14, 2005
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Marchbank is a slightly different player, but yes, he’s far superior - or at least projects to be a gun intercept defender.

Plowman is now a dour, dependable back pocket, but that wasn’t his role at junior level, and these days is a stopper who can also play on smaller players if required.
 
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Well thats what I'm getting at. Did he do a good job? Or did he just do the same job that anyone could've done in that position.
My view is that its more the latter and that he's ridden his stunning playing career into the role back at CFC.
IMO if GWS win a flag in the next two years he's done a good job. Coaches have to take some responsibility as well.
 
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The only thing I like about this Carlton trade is it removes incentive for them to tank yet another year, something that ought to be beneficial for the club's culture and many would argue is long overdue.

However I just don't have sufficient faith that the Carlton recruiting team was able to see something in Stocker seventeen other clubs weren't. Not to the extent they should willingly gamble the first pick of a team coming off a two win season, for that of another who'd won the Minor Premiership only two years earlier with only pick 19 to make up the difference.
Although I congratulate SOS on being bold and deciding not to die wondering and realize its often a fine line between madness and genius, this deal strikes me as far more likely to be attributed to the former by history. In fact should Carlton finish near the foot of the ladder as most of us expect and Adelaide get their mojo back -and there was already signs of that happening late last season- this could well go down as near the worst AFL trade of all time.

Just imagine the pressure on that poor kid Stocker's shoulders before he even plays an AFL game. He virtually holds Silvagni's job in his hands.
 

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The only thing I like about this Carlton trade is it removes incentive for them to tank yet another year, something that ought to be beneficial for the club's culture and many would argue is long overdue.

However I just don't have sufficient faith that the Carlton recruiting team was able to see something in Stocker seventeen other clubs weren't. Not to the extent they should willingly gamble the first pick of a team coming off a two win season, for that of another who'd won the Minor Premiership only two years earlier with only pick 19 to make up the difference.
Although I congratulate SOS on being bold and deciding not to die wondering and realize its often a fine line between madness and genius, this deal strikes me as far more likely to be attributed to the former by history. In fact should Carlton finish near the foot of the ladder as most of us expect and Adelaide get their mojo back -and there was already signs of that happening late last season- this could well go down as near the worst AFL trade of all time.

Just imagine the pressure on that poor kid Stocker's shoulders before he even plays an AFL game. He virtually holds Silvagni's job in his hands.
Carlton made the right move here if they rate Stocker that high (reports seem to be that he was 6th on their board). Better to downgrade next year's pick in return for getting a "top 6 talent", actual draft points of the trade are basically irrelevant.

My only concern is how they could possibly have rated Stocker in the top 6. Rankine, Walsh and Lukosius obviously had to be above him, as well as Bailey Smith. That puts him at 5. Then we have Blakey, Thomas and the two Kings. He has to be getting rated above at least 3 of those guys for him to be 6th on their board. This could very well be another Bontempelli moment, where only a small number of clubs rate the player so high while others view them a bit later down the order, but there is no guarantee of that.
 

Isaac Cumming No 1

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I never presented it as fact.
You can never factually say one player is better than another, especially when there isnt a lot in it.
You don't think Marchbank is the better player I presume?
I'll give you that one. To my generation if you make statements of fact it's taken literally and is rude. To the younger generations it's generally acceptable.

I still strongly disagree with your reasoning though. Setting ul a list for a new club is a huge and difficult task, not made easier by the fact the team are all getting to know each other.

It was a very big and unique opportunity, and a very big risk without real precedent to help.

As for Marchbank and Plowman they're different types if defenders. My view is Plowman is cool under pressure and makes good decisions, that's valuable in a young team. Marchbank has the higher upside if he can put the injury setbacks behind him.
 
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Carlton made the right move here if they rate Stocker that high (reports seem to be that he was 6th on their board). Better to downgrade next year's pick in return for getting a "top 6 talent", actual draft points of the trade are basically irrelevant.

My only concern is how they could possibly have rated Stocker in the top 6. Rankine, Walsh and Lukosius obviously had to be above him, as well as Bailey Smith. That puts him at 5. Then we have Blakey, Thomas and the two Kings. He has to be getting rated above at least 3 of those guys for him to be 6th on their board. This could very well be another Bontempelli moment, where only a small number of clubs rate the player so high while others view them a bit later down the order, but there is no guarantee of that.
I don't have a problem with Carlton potentially overrating Stocker, they won't be the first or the last club to overrate a draftee.

The issue for me is entirely the price they paid for him, if they had've traded say their 2019 2nd + 3rd round picks for Adelaide's 2018 pick 19, few of us would've batted an eyelid. At the end of the day giving up the future first pick of a team coming off a two-win season is remarkably reckless, particularly when half the reward is a player seventeen other clubs didn't rate especially highly and the value of the other half is predicated on factors beyond Carlton's control.
 
Jul 14, 2005
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The only thing I like about this Carlton trade is it removes incentive for them to tank yet another year, something that ought to be beneficial for the club's culture and many would argue is long overdue.

However I just don't have sufficient faith that the Carlton recruiting team was able to see something in Stocker seventeen other clubs weren't. Not to the extent they should willingly gamble the first pick of a team coming off a two win season, for that of another who'd won the Minor Premiership only two years earlier with only pick 19 to make up the difference.
Although I congratulate SOS on being bold and deciding not to die wondering and realize its often a fine line between madness and genius, this deal strikes me as far more likely to be attributed to the former by history. In fact should Carlton finish near the foot of the ladder as most of us expect and Adelaide get their mojo back -and there was already signs of that happening late last season- this could well go down as near the worst AFL trade of all time.

Just imagine the pressure on that poor kid Stocker's shoulders before he even plays an AFL game. He virtually holds Silvagni's job in his hands.

I agree to some extent, even if it is quite speculative. We’re partly hoping the trade impels us to perform given there’s now no high pick on offer (assuming Adelaide finish top 8).

It’s a calculated risk though, and although it seems far-fetched given our last year, we’re backing ourselves to improve beyond where most anticipate us to finish, or at least get to a spot which validates the trade. I don’t necessarily see anything wrong with our evaluation of the trade itself; I assume our assessment of Stocker is partly based on our needs, to which we need another inside bull who can also impact on the outside. I also think we see Stocker as a reasonably safe selection, and wouldn’t have attempted the trade without a fairly rosy view of how he will develop, which should be at worst be as a comfortable best 22 midfielder and at best a very good player.

I don’t know how we view Adelaide’s prospects, but there are likely 11-12 clubs who could finish in the top 8. They might just see 2017 as an anomaly rather than a pure indication of where Adelaide is at, although both outcomes are possible - Adelaide pushing through top 4 or mid-range. It’ll be interesting to see how Brodie Smith goes after a year out of the game and if their midfield can stay on the park. Injecting some draftees will also benefit them IMO.

Definitely a risk from our end, but where we are at with our rebuild, and factoring in an extra 12 months development into a young mid, I don’t think the consequences are that big if we have another putrid season. We have enough top draft picks to build a good future team, we just need to get experience into the squad - both through trades and getting games into young players.
 
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Sep 16, 2014
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The only thing I like about this Carlton trade is it removes incentive for them to tank yet another year, something that ought to be beneficial for the club's culture and many would argue is long overdue.

However I just don't have sufficient faith that the Carlton recruiting team was able to see something in Stocker seventeen other clubs weren't. Not to the extent they should willingly gamble the first pick of a team coming off a two win season, for that of another who'd won the Minor Premiership only two years earlier with only pick 19 to make up the difference.
Although I congratulate SOS on being bold and deciding not to die wondering and realize its often a fine line between madness and genius, this deal strikes me as far more likely to be attributed to the former by history. In fact should Carlton finish near the foot of the ladder as most of us expect and Adelaide get their mojo back -and there was already signs of that happening late last season- this could well go down as near the worst AFL trade of all time.

Just imagine the pressure on that poor kid Stocker's shoulders before he even plays an AFL game. He virtually holds Silvagni's job in his hands.
Could also go down as the best trade of all time. Yeah i'm guessing as well.
 
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