Traded 2018 Live Trade: Carlton trade #4 (2019) to Adelaide for #19 (2018) and #9 (2019)

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Could also go down as the best trade of all time. Yeah i'm guessing as well.

Brendan Bolton could also eventually be named the greatest coach of all time. Similar odds.

 

[Robertio]

Brendan Bolton could also eventually be named the greatest coach of all time. Similar odds.

I thought he already was.

 

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I thought he already was.

 

[La Dispute]

Even under the worst possible scenario (Adelaide get Pick 1, we get Pick 18) I think we’re happy to back the picks we’ve already brought in.

We’ve already taken Weitering, McKay, Curnow, Cuningham, SPS, Dow, O’Brien, Walsh and Stocker as first round draftees, plus former 1st rounders Plowman, Setterfield, Marchbank, Kennedy who have been brought in to be long-term players.

Adding another (likely) Top 5 would be nice, but we’ve already got several top tier draftees from this rebuild on our list, and history has shown a strong football department is a far better predictor of success than draft metrics. I’d much rather we get this right than continue stockpiling draft picks.

 

[DangerSloane]

Even under the worst possible scenario (Adelaide get Pick 1, we get Pick 18) I think we’re happy to back the picks we’ve already brought in.

We’ve already taken Weitering, McKay, Curnow, Cuningham, SPS, Dow, O’Brien, Walsh and Stocker as first round draftees, plus former 1st rounders Plowman, Setterfield, Marchbank, Kennedy who have been brought in to be long-term players.

Adding another (likely) Top 5 would be nice, but we’ve already got several top tier draftees from this rebuild on our list, and we know that history has shown a strong football department is a far better predictor of success than draft metrics. I’d much rather we get this right than continue stockpiling draft picks.

Not really relevant though is it?

That "happy to back someone in" statement could be used for literally any scenario.

Oh gold coast lost both captains and their best two players - "its ok we're happy to back the young guys coming through"

 

[La Dispute]

Not really relevant though is it?

That "happy to back someone in" statement could be used for literally any scenario.

Oh gold coast lost both captains and their best two players - "its ok we're happy to back the young guys coming through"

Of course, but we’ve got a heap of young talent on our list already.

Another top pick is always advantageous, but given we’ve got a glut of early picks on our list, it’s not absolutely imperative to bring in another (likely) Top 5 pick.

Losing an early pick isn’t going to make or break us - especially given we’re still bringing in two more first round picks in through the trade.

 

[Monkey King]

Gibbs from memory had a decent game but cant remember him doing anything spectacular or anything that really stood out in my mind

Watch the game again. Gibbs was pretty epic getting Carlton going in that third quarter after the Blues got down by 30 points. From that time to when Carlton got back to within a point, he was involved in 3 of the 5 goals that brought his team back into it, intercepted at least 3 forward thrusts by the Tigers, got first hands on the ball at stoppages a number of times, either clearing it or nullifying it. He and later Judd, really got the ball rolling and a number of other players jumped on the gravy train.

Im not going to claim Gibbs would’ve been the difference, but geez he would’ve been handy for the Crows when the game was still up for grabs in the third quarter. He’s player who can turn it on, so you just never know.

 

[THE_GUN]

Watch the game again. Gibbs was pretty epic getting Carlton going in that third quarter after the Blues got down by 30 points. From that time to when Carlton got back to within a point, he was involved in 3 of the 5 goals that brought his team back into it, intercepted at least 3 forward thrusts by the Tigers, got first hands on the ball at stoppages a number of times, either clearing it or nullifying it. He and later Judd, really got the ball rolling and a number of other players jumped on the gravy train.

Im not going to claim Gibbs would’ve been the difference, but geez he would’ve been handy for the Crows when the game was still up for grabs in the third quarter. He’s player who can turn it on, so you just never know.

Wont argue that he didnt have a good game but to suggest he was the reason why the blues won i think is stretching it, I was at the game and also watched it on replay and during both occasions i felt it was Judd that got the blues going and Betts / Waite were just amazing with their dominance in the foward line and Nick Duigan was another along with Robinson that stood out in my mind. But after so much insistence i decided to have a look and see what was reported


"CHRIS Judd has inspired Carlton to a thrilling comeback victory over Richmond in the first elimination final at the MCG on Sunday.

The Blues clawed their way back from a 32-point deficit to win by 20 points before a record elimination final crowd of 94,690.

Carlton only earned its finals spot after seventh-placed Essendon was ruled out of September action by the AFL and looked set for an early exit when they trailed by more than five goals points at the three-minute mark of the third term.

But former skipper Judd, returning after a three-week absence with a knee injury, got the Blues back into the game with an outstanding 11-possession third term that sparked them to a memorable 18.8 (116) to 14.12 (96) victory."

Carlton Goals : Waite 4, Duigan 4, Betts 3, Garlett 2, Robinson 2, Warnock, Scotland, Judd
Carlton Best: Judd, Murphy, Curnow, Duigan, Betts, Waite, Gibbs

After reading this article i feel vindicated that what i remember was correct in my opinion
http://www.afl.com.au/match-centre/2013/24/rich-v-carl


But thats all besides the point, Richmond had 13 different players to the team that played the 2017 grand final and a very very different game plan as well as being a team that was on fire accounting for 3 of the best teams of 2017 in every game easily so to suggest that Bryce Gibbs would have been the difference between a Crows win or Loss i just dont buy that.

Anyway this is not a thread to debate the 2017 GF or if Crows would have won the flag if they had gibbs as we will never know and probably best to agree to disagree and leave it to the crows supporters to think about it.

 

[1970crow]

Yep, all assumption on my part. Good pick up (Y)

I think McKay’s ceiling is higher than Curnow’s given his extra height and athleticism. Just a matter of getting there.

I’ve seen him do some outstanding things. I reckon he’ll end up being a very, very, very good player.

 

[Rich01]

Watch the game again. Gibbs was pretty epic getting Carlton going in that third quarter after the Blues got down by 30 points. From that time to when Carlton got back to within a point, he was involved in 3 of the 5 goals that brought his team back into it, intercepted at least 3 forward thrusts by the Tigers, got first hands on the ball at stoppages a number of times, either clearing it or nullifying it. He and later Judd, really got the ball rolling and a number of other players jumped on the gravy train.

Im not going to claim Gibbs would’ve been the difference, but geez he would’ve been handy for the Crows when the game was still up for grabs in the third quarter. He’s player who can turn it on, so you just never know.

One quarter (where he wasn’t even close to best on in that qtr) four years before the 2017 Grand Final where the result was 8 goals.

Geez what could have been eh?

Never change Carlton supporters.

 

[1970crow]

Dow is anything but vanilla. Has great speed and power.

Mackay and Atkins are what I’d describe as vanilla - average players who are slightly soft and largely ineffectual.

Mackay is the worst player in the history of the AFL to play 200 games. Atkins can definitely play and has been influential for games but did have a couple of quiet patches last year and has an amazing ability to not even touch opponents who are well within tackling distance. I’m expecting a big year from him. Hopefully Mackay finishes his career on the same number of AFL games that he finished 2018 on. An embarrassment that he’s played so many games.

 

[Kane McGoodwin]

I don't have a problem with Carlton potentially overrating Stocker, they won't be the first or the last club to overrate a draftee.

The issue for me is entirely the price they paid for him, if they had've traded say their 2019 2nd + 3rd round picks for Adelaide's 2018 pick 19, few of us would've batted an eyelid. At the end of the day giving up the future first pick of a team coming off a two-win season is remarkably reckless, particularly when half the reward is a player seventeen other clubs didn't rate especially highly and the value of the other half is predicated on factors beyond Carlton's control.

Cartlon didn't have their 2019 2nd. GWS did & they traded it to the Crows for a pick upgrade... so they could only get Stocker by using their 2019 1st rounder.

 

[Malifice]

This Adelaide / Carlton sh!t fight just adds a new chapter every year , Its like a love/hate relationship

There is no love.

 

[Monkey King]

Wont argue that he didnt have a good game but to suggest he was the reason why the blues won i think is stretching it, I was at the game and also watched it on replay and during both occasions i felt it was Judd that got the blues going and Betts / Waite were just amazing with their dominance in the foward line and Nick Duigan was another along with Robinson that stood out in my mind. But after so much insistence i decided to have a look and see what was reported


"CHRIS Judd has inspired Carlton to a thrilling comeback victory over Richmond in the first elimination final at the MCG on Sunday.

Carlton Goals : Waite 4, Duigan 4, Betts 3, Garlett 2, Robinson 2, Warnock, Scotland, Judd
Carlton Best: Judd, Murphy, Curnow, Duigan, Betts, Waite, Gibbs

After reading this article i feel vindicated that what i remember was correct in my opinion
http://www.afl.com.au/match-centre/2013/24/rich-v-carl

Gibbs was BOG in Carlton’s BnF for this match. You feel vindicated by an article that barely had him in the bests. Kind of a reverse vindication for me. Yes, Judd was immense, great flash and an obvious contributor; but for those paying closer attention, it was Gibbs who first got the Blues going. The Carlton coaches sure knew it. What a pity the MVP wasn’t around so we could have seen Hardwick’s recognition as well.

I don’t know what more to tell you other than go watch that third quarter again. I‘ve explained what Gibbs contributed during the period Carlton kicked 5 goals to come back from being 30pts down. Show me one other player that had the same impact as Gibbs in that 10 minute stretch; like literally tell me what they contributed. Judd didn’t. He had his first stunning take away from the bounce into F50 in this period, probably unnoticed by most, Gibbs was splayed out on the ground having won the hardball and handballed it to him. None of the players you mentioned had the same impact either. All of that came later, in the period of struggle after the initial 5 goals spurt that got Carlton back into the game.

Who knows what Gibbs could’ve done for the Crows. All I’m saying is he once played a finals match at the G’ against the Tigers where his team was thumped to half time and played a key role in turning the game around. As you’ve noted, there were a few players (having average games to that point) that jumped on the gravy train after that and belted out a win. Who knows if the Gibbs could’ve done the same on GF day, or if other Crows players would’ve jumped on the gravy train like the Blues ones did. That’s just one big stone forever left unturned.

 

[Monkey King]

One quarter (where he wasn’t even close to best on in that qtr) four years before the 2017 Grand Final where the result was 8 goals.

Games don’t start at the final siren. At halftime it was game on, Tigers found a way to break away and the Crows didn’t. I’m sure if Carlton didn’t find a way to turn it around, it would‘ve been even more than an 8 goal shellacking.

Gibbs was BOG btw, so not just “one quarter”, but certainly a crucial 10 minutes there where he was his team’s biggest driver in bringing a 30pt deficit back to one point.

Who knows what could have happened if the Crows had a player doing likewise after halftime, or if Gibbs could’ve even been that player for them, or if subjugated Crows players would’ve responded the way the Carlton ones did. No one knows, so don’t pretend like you do.

 

[Rich01]

Games don’t start at the final siren. At halftime it was game on, Tigers found a way to break away and the Crows didn’t. I’m sure if Carlton didn’t find a way to turn it around, it would‘ve been even more than an 8 goal shellacking.

Gibbs was BOG btw, so not just “one quarter”, but certainly a crucial 10 minutes there where he was his team’s biggest driver in bringing a 30pt deficit back to one point.

Who knows what could have happened if the Crows had a player doing likewise after halftime, or if Gibbs could’ve even been that player for them, or if subjugated Crows players would’ve responded the way the Carlton ones did. No one knows, so don’t pretend like you do.

Yeah heaps of ‘what ifs’ in the grand final eh? What if Cotchin and Ellis were suspended? What if McGovern and Brodie Smith had have played?

Putting a what if on a player who wasn’t even in their squad that year and basing their impact on the grand final where the difference was 8 goals on one quarter of a game played four years beforehand is a stretch, even for you. Understand the need for fantasy and projection for Carlton supporters though. What if they had have picked Oliver over Weitering giving them two cracking AA mids driving their team for the next ten years? It’s fanciful yeah?
Or just because you like to, do you just look back and wonder what if? Spose you just have to shrug and back the man you picked in to the hilt.

 

[Monkey King]

Yeah heaps of ‘what ifs’ in the grand final eh? What if Cotchin and Ellis were suspended? What if McGovern and Brodie Smith had have played?

Absolutely, full of what ifs and only what ifs. Gibbs is one of them. In the tails of Gibbs’ actual playing record, he may have contributed not a single lick of difference; or he might have helped spark a Crows resurgence at some point.

Of course its all out there now, floating around somewhere with Schrödinger’s cat, so no one, including you, could possibly know which Gibbs would’ve shown up that day, or how his Crows teammates would’ve responded to it.

 

[DangerSloane]

Wait we're really using 6 year old evidence of Gibbs having a decent quarter and extrapolating that out to saying that he would've made 8 goals difference in the grand final a number of years later.

Wow blues fans, this is a new low.

 

[Rich01]

Absolutely, full of what ifs and only what ifs. Gibbs is one of them. In the tails of Gibbs’ actual playing record, he may have contributed not a single lick of difference; or he might have helped spark a Crows resurgence at some point.

Of course its all out there now, floating around somewhere with Schrödinger’s cat, so no one, including you, could possibly know which Gibbs would’ve shown up that day, or how his Crows teammates would’ve responded to it.

Yep, he could have injured himself in the lead up to the 2017 grand final too if they traded him in a year early. Lots of moot permutations for you to consider eh?

 

[Monkey King]

Yep, he could have injured himself in the lead up to the 2017 grand final too if they traded him in a year early. Lots of moot permutations for you to consider eh?

Right, like anyone thinks about all the things that wouldn’t have made a difference. Lol.

Nah mate, I’m a Blues supporter, so only interested in considering how this little scenario involving Carlton may have altered the other party’s outcome. And given the unique position Adelaide found themselves in that single season between not doing the trade and then doing the trade, it’s a perfectly reasonable what if to consider.

But I get it. As we all got told last year on BF, you guys are the best yada yada yada. God forbid the notion a single player, Bryce Gibbs no less, could possibly, at any level of probably, have taken your glory away.

 

[DangerSloane]

Right, like anyone thinks about all the things that wouldn’t have made a difference. Lol.

Nah mate, I’m a Blues supporter, so only interested in considering how this little scenario involving Carlton may have altered the other party’s outcome. And given the unique position Adelaide found themselves in that single season between not doing the trade and then doing the trade, it’s a perfectly reasonable what if to consider.

But I get it. As we all got told last year on BF, you guys are the best yada yada yada. God forbid the notion a single player, Bryce Gibbs no less, could possibly, at any level of probably, have taken your glory away.

What if you'd kept Kennedy, Betts, Garlett, Waite, Gibbs, Robinson, Jacobs etc.
You might be playing finals instead of 2 win seasons.

now do you see how stupid your scenarios are ?

 

[Rich01]

Right, like anyone thinks about all the things that wouldn’t have made a difference. Lol.

Nah mate, I’m a Blues supporter, so only interested in considering how this little scenario involving Carlton may have altered the other party’s outcome. And given the unique position Adelaide found themselves in that single season between not doing the trade and then doing the trade, it’s a perfectly reasonable what if to consider.

But I get it. As we all got told last year on BF, you guys are the best yada yada yada. God forbid the notion a single player, Bryce Gibbs no less, could possibly, at any level of probably, have taken your glory away.

I’m a big fan of what ifs mate.
But realistic ones, not make believe ones where you try to make an assumption based on a performance by a player in one quarter from 2013 and try to project that into a game four years later.

I get it though. When you don’t have that success you need to fantasise about the what ifs, and project forwards as best you can with optimism. Can empathise there for sure.

It’s the stance Carlton supporters need to take with the actual topic of this thread. They can’t think about the consequences of their trade for Stocker. Rather hope like hell he turns out to be the top 6 player in the latest draft that SOS believes he is.

 

[La Dispute]

All Stocker needs to be is another part in the sum of the whole that comprises our future team. He doesn’t have the same expectations as our top draft picks, because he’s not one. The ‘top 6’ comments are nothing more than a big of internal boost for the club and Stocker himself.

If he’s not prepared for whatever scrutinity he’s going to face (and I sincerely doubt it’s as extensive as the catastrophic projections some are making) then he wouldn’t have been picked where he was.

All first-round draftees are under the microscope once they are drafted, and need a good temperament to weather this. From all indications our recruiting team believes Stocker has the determination and drive to succeed, and this would have been a big consideration in executing the trade, and one intangible as to why we had him further up our draft board than most.

 

[Monkey King]

What if you'd kept Kennedy, Betts, Garlett, Waite, Gibbs, Robinson, Jacobs etc.
You might be playing finals instead of 2 win seasons.

now do you see how stupid your scenarios are ?

Scenarios similar to this re Carlton have actually been raised many times on BF. Why the sudden dismay?

 

[DangerSloane]

Scenarios similar to this re Carlton have actually been raised many times on BF. Why the sudden dismay?

No sudden dismay, its just as daft as your previous comments.

Gibbs has never made 8 goals difference in any game. How could you possibly think he would've changed the outcome of a grand final where we got belted in every position on the ground?