Traded Lloyd Meek - [Traded with F2 (Dogs) to Hawthorn for Jaeger O'Meara and F4]

[Mr Meeseeks]

Better minds than mine are making the calls but personally, I dont really want to trade a F3 for Meek.

I like him but seriously, he's played 15 games in 4 years. I cant see his cvalue increasing in 12 months behind Jackson/Darcy and then he is uncontracted.

Our 3rd next year could be in the 30s, which could drop to the late 20s after bids. I would prefer to keep that.

 

[gungho]

What part of "HE DOESN'T WANT TO BE AT YOUR CLUB" are you having issues with?
He'll be worth a 6 pack of your Emu Cat P!ss and a packet of chewing gum by the end of next season.

With all due respect to Meek, what’s that got to do with if he gets traded or not? Plenty of clubs in the last few years have held blokes to their contract if they didn’t like the deal they were getting in return. It’s a professional sport unfortunately.

 

[Snuffaluphagus]

Feels like some interesting games being player between GWS, Hawks and Freo with JOM and Meek. Will be fascinating to see where it all ends up

 

[Guardian Hawk]

I mean I'm not the one who is stating that no fringe rucks go for top 25 picks. It was another hawthorn supporter stating that.

So if we do end up with pick 24 for meek and 28 then that proves that fringe rucks do in fact go for top 25 picks. I'm unsure as to what you're trying to point out here?

I feel like you're being deliberately obtuse for the sake of "point scoring" in an argument.

I said (and have said all along) that he (or any non best 22 ruck) is not worth a top 25 pick. If a player is traded together with pick 25 for pick 24 that, by definition, doesn't make them worth a top 25 pick (as a very similar pick has had to come back the other way). Yes, a top 25 pick forms part of the trade but the player themself is then only worth a 1 pick upgrade. If you go back through my posts I have even said top 25 pick on its own multiple times (even highlighting that a pick swap including it could happen and would be fair value). Do you think he is worth a top 25 pick on its own or not?

 

[Wabjub]

I feel like you're being deliberately obtuse for the sake of "point scoring" in an argument.

I said (and have said all along) that he (or any non best 22 ruck) is not worth a top 25 pick. If a player is traded together with pick 25 for pick 24 that, by definition, doesn't make them worth a top 25 pick (as a very similar pick has had to come back the other way). Yes, a top 25 pick forms part of the trade but the player themself is then only worth a 1 pick upgrade. If you go back through my posts I have even said top 25 pick on its own multiple times (even highlighting that a pick swap including it could happen and would be fair value). Do you think he is worth a top 25 pick on its own or not?

Firstly, Lobb is not an A grader.

Secondly, good best 22 players don't go for top 25 picks, let alone depth players. So the "he would get a game at other teams" line doesn't really matter as only top liners fetch that kind of price.

Thirdly, Hawthorn traded for a ruck in almost exactly the same circumstances last year. Max Lynch was 23, stuck behind Grundy in a sole ruck set up and had played a handful of games and shown promise (including a game he beat Max Gawn). He wasn't just traded for an F3 but an F3 upgrade. Before you bother refuting this example, I can reel off LOTS of very similar deals.

But do you have a SINGLE counter example EVER (of a non best 22 depth ruck being traded for a top 25 pick)?

(and the point of Lobb not being an A grader is that if Meek was as awesome as you say, he should be able to earn a game ahead of Lobb. He is not at some unattainable high level that could not be expected to be dispaced)

We were specifically discussing our F2 vs F3. That is, Hawthorn's future 2nd - which, with all of the experience we are losing, is VERY likely to be a late teens, early 20's pick.

Secondly, when we disagree on the trade value of a certain player, surely the best evidence for who is closer to the market value is to look at (literally any) other trade. Yes, it's possible this trade bucks the trend of every single trade before it in history but I am using evidence to support my view that his market value is not a top 25 pick. Not only is there no single other example ever but I would be shocked if you can find a single non Freo supporter who agrees he is worth that.

I cant find a quote from you that says "a top 25 pick on its own". All you've said is a top 25 pick, which insinuates that other picks can be part of a deal as long as there's A top 25 pick. If you didn't want to include other picks then you may have said "a top 25 pick on its own" but as I stated, you never said that. So by the definition of the "argument" ending up with pick 24 regardless of other picks included is getting a top 25 pick.

I also dont care for whatever you meant by "point scoring". I am quoting the flaws in what you said verses what you think youve said.

 

[King Tenz]

What part of "HE DOESN'T WANT TO BE AT YOUR CLUB" are you having issues with?
He'll be worth a 6 pack of your Emu Cat P!ss and a packet of chewing gum by the end of next season.

As someone else rightly pointed out... You're saying we can trade him for a 3rd rounder right now or hold him and trade him for a 3rd rounder next season.

So, why exactly should we trade him right now?

 

[Guardian Hawk]

I cant find a quote from you that says "a top 25 pick on its own". All you've said is a top 25 pick, which insinuates that other picks can be part of a deal as long as there's A top 25 pick. If you didn't want to include other picks then you may have said "a top 25 pick on its own" but as I stated, you never said that. So by the definition of the "argument" ending up with pick 24 regardless of other picks included is getting a top 25 pick.

I also dont care for whatever you meant by "point scoring". I am quoting the flaws in what you said verses what you think youve said.

Firstly, I clearly stated "If you go back through my posts I have said". There are number of posts stating exactly that in this thread including this one...

Let's agree to disagree - I can see no way you would be given pick 1 (or a future pick 1-3) in a deal for Logue under contract. I would be shocked if any neutral would agree with that.

Let's just wait and see - If Meek is traded for a top 25 pick (or an F2) without anything of note coming back (such as your own F2 or F3, making it a small pick upgrade), you will be correct. I'm pretty confident it will be less than that.

Second, I even used Ladhams as part of my argument prior to you doing so earlier in this thread to highlight he is not worth a top 25 pick (just as Ladhams wasn't). Third, if people are arguing whether a player is worth a certain pick they CLEARLY don't mean that pick with something very similar needing to come back. That is NOT the worth of that player. As with the earlier example, if I say Meek is not worth a top 25 pick and he the trade is pick 24 for Meek and pick 25 - then CLEARLY he is not worth a top 25 pick and is only worth a small upgrade - that is incredibly obvious and shouldn't need to be re-stated every time. (I mean by your criteria, Junior Rioli is worth pick 1 and multiple first rounders, because it was all "part of" the same trade - which makes no sense)(or JHF being woth pick 48 because that pick was involved in the trade). A pick being involved in a trade does not make a player worth that pick on its own and doesn't need to be reiterated in every subsequent post.

 

[Taylor]

What part of "HE DOESN'T WANT TO BE AT YOUR CLUB" are you having issues with?
He'll be worth a 6 pack of your Emu Cat P!ss and a packet of chewing gum by the end of next season.

He's actually quite comfortable at Freo, he just wants more game time.

 

[Wabjub]

Firstly, I clearly stated "If you go back through my posts I have said". There are number of posts stating exactly that in this thread including this one...



Second, I even used Ladhams as part of my argument prior to you doing so earlier in this thread to highlight he is not worth a top 25 pick (just as Ladhams wasn't). Third, if people are arguing whether a player is worth a certain pick they CLEARLY don't mean that pick with something very similar needing to come back. That is NOT the worth of that player. As with the earlier example, if I say Meek is not worth a top 25 pick and he the trade is pick 24 for Meek and pick 25 - then CLEARLY he is not worth a top 25 pick and is only worth a small upgrade - that is incredibly obvious and shouldn't need to be re-stated every time. (I mean by your criteria, Junior Rioli is worth pick 1 and multiple first rounders, because it was all "part of" the same trade - which makes no sense)(or JHF being woth pick 48 because that pick was involved in the trade). A pick being involved in a trade does not make a player worth that pick on its own and doesn't need to be reiterated in every subsequent post.

I went through our conversation, which what you quoted wasn't part of it. I'm not going to scour every post you have made with every other user, our discussion was you questioning if any fringe player was ever traded for a top 25 pick, to which I pointed out Ladhams and your narrative slowly changed to player worth not picks acquired.

If the trade is bundled together with picks etc. his worth is not 24 or 25 but thats not what you originally asked. If you acquire a top 25 pick after all is done then you now hold that pick. So to answer your question yes if you get 24 in a trade you have now got a top 25 pick which is what you originally were arguing about. Same with Ladhams, you may have upgraded and total value is not a first round pick bit you still hold a first round pick after the trades finalised.

 

[Sully90]

Gang, Lloyd Meek really isn't worth 30 pages of small essays.

 

[Guardian Hawk]

I went through our conversation, which what you quoted wasn't part of it. I'm not going to scour every post you have made with every other user, our discussion was you questioning if any fringe player was ever traded for a top 25 pick, to which I pointed out Ladhams and your narrative slowly changed to player worth not picks acquired.

If the trade is bundled together with picks etc. his worth is not 24 or 25 but thats not what you originally asked. If you acquire a top 25 pick after all is done then you now hold that pick. So to answer your question yes if you get 24 in a trade you have now got a top 25 pick which is what you originally were arguing about. Same with Ladhams, you may have upgraded and total value is not a first round pick bit you still hold a first round pick after the trades finalised.

I genuinely can't believe we are going back and forth on this to be honest - Ladhams wasn't traded for a first round pick. He was traded for a third round pick and a small pick upgrade which included firsts. You joined the discussion quoting me (when I argued that F5 was not fair, F3 was fair ad F2 was too high)

Supposedly F3 has been offered and it is already a fair (if not more than fair) deal. That is a pick likely in the late 30's (or around 40) in a strong draft for a non-best 22 ruck. A pick in the early 20's (i.e. F2) would be massively overs.

It is clear I am talking to the worth of the player - which was the whole basis for your first response to me. When someone says, an early 20's pick would be massively overs they CLEARLY don't mean a small upgrade of picks in the 20's. When I asked for examples of players traded for a top 25 pick (to obviously establish worth) it is CLEAR I don't mean as part of a much larger trade that obviously values the individual player significantly less. Not keen to keep going back and forth on this pedantry - it seems you don't actually believe he is worth a top 25 pick after all* so the point of my argument is no longer needed.

* Edit: on its own, by itself, without anything significant coming back, etc, etc.

 

[Wabjub]

I genuinely can't believe we are going back and forth on this to be honest - Ladhams wasn't traded for a first round pick. He was traded for a third round pick and a small pick upgrade which included firsts. You joined the discussion quoting me (when I argued that F5 was not fair, F3 was fair ad F2 was too high)



It is clear I am talking to the worth of the player - which was the whole basis for your first response to me. When someone says, an early 20's pick would be massively overs they CLEARLY don't mean a small upgrade of picks in the 20's. When I asked for examples of players traded for a top 25 pick (to obviously establish worth) it is CLEAR I don't mean as part of a much larger trade that obviously values the individual player significantly less. Not keen to keep going back and forth on this pedantry - it seems you don't actually believe he is worth a top 25 pick after all* so the point of my argument is no longer needed.

* Edit: on its own, by itself, without anything significant coming back, etc, etc.

Clear to you maybe, you asked if a fringe player ever was traded for a top 25 pick. Yes they have because the team irregardless of an upgrade or what have you hold a top 25 pick once the trades done.

Next time word it as a fringe player valued as a top 25 pick. It's all in the details. You can make all the assumptions now but you asked a specific question and I gave an answer. You changed your question after the fact because you realised it was poorly worded.

How many points have I scored now?

 

[Guardian Hawk]

Clear to you maybe, you asked if a fringe player ever was traded for a top 25 pick. Yes they have because the team irregardless of an upgrade or what have you hold a top 25 pick once the trades done.

Next time word it as a fringe player valued as a top 25 pick. It's all in the details. You can make all the assumptions now but you asked a specific question and I gave an answer. You changed your question after the fact because you realised it was poorly worded.

How many points have I scored now?

Sigh (I said I would stop and here I am replying again - I have no idea why). I didn't change the question at all and I suspect you knew (as everyone else in the thread did) what the question was. I don't believe Ladhams was traded for a top 25 pick. He was involved in a trade that included a top 25 pick but was Ladhams traded for a top 25 pick? no, he wasn't. He AND pick 12 were traded for pick 16. But again, when I asked for a precedent it was clearly evident from my posting that we were discussing (and to that point disagreeing) on the value of Meek. You knew that too because the arguments you made were to highlight he was worth more than my initial valuation (which you directly responded to to make the case for).

Just like if someone says I'll give you $500 for that car. answer - That car's worth $1000! Give me any example of that car being sold for $1000. Here is an example of that car and another much better car being sold together for a total of $1000. You haven't actually provided the example asked (as is obvious to any rational person).

 

[HairyO]

Gang, Lloyd Meek really isn't worth 30 pages of small essays.

Its bizarre. A heap of best 22 players wanting out and Freo supporters decide a backup ruckman is the untouchable.

 

[Wabjub]

Sigh (I said I would stop and here I am replying again - I have no idea why). I didn't change the question at all and I suspect you knew (as everyone else in the thread did) what the question was. I don't believe Ladhams was traded for a top 25 pick. He was involved in a trade that included a top 25 pick but was Ladhams traded for a top 25 pick? no, he wasn't. He AND pick 12 were traded for pick 16. But again, when I asked for a precedent it was clearly evident from my posting that we were discussing (and to that point disagreeing) on the value of Meek. You knew that too because the arguments you made were to highlight he was worth more than my initial valuation (which you directly responded to to make the case for).

Just like if someone says I'll give you $500 for that car. answer - That car's worth $1000! Give me any example of that car being sold for $1000. Here is an example of that car and another much better car being sold together for a total of $1000. You haven't actually provided the example asked (as is obvious to any rational person).

You asked me (I'm not here to find your comments with other people) to point put when a fringe ruckman got a pick in top 25. A pick, not total value or anything else. Just a pick. You worded it poorly. Accept it and move on. If you asked about a players trade valued at top 25 then it's a different answer. Making assumptions that people should have known you meant this or that is a cop out.

Part of Ladhams deal was a pick in the top 25. You asked. I gave you that example. They now physically hold a top 25 pick in their draft hand irregardless of the trade value.

You keep replying because you know you worded it poorly but have to try and emphasise that you meant value and not individual picks.

Answer this.

Did Port receive a pick in the top 25 for Ladhams, no matter what was swapped in or out. Did they receive a top 25 pick in that trade?

Because that's what you asked ME to find out originally. To find a fringe player who was got a top 25 pick. Nothing about valuing every pick etc together.

 

[Sully90]

Its bizarre. A heap of best 22 players wanting out and Freo supporters decide a backup ruckman is the untouchable.

I mean I can understand the attachment, but Freo hasn't done itself any favours by A) not playing him, and B) bringing in someone clearly ahead of him.

 

[HairyO]

I mean I can understand the attachment, but Freo hasn't done itself any favours by A) not playing him, and B) bringing in someone clearly ahead of him.

We can go for Meek and Serong next year when they are out of contract.

 

[Hawkspot]

I mean I can understand the attachment, but Freo hasn't done itself any favours by A) not playing him, and B) bringing in someone clearly ahead of him.

Yeh spot on, if everything goes to plan next year (and the 8 years after that) for Freo he won’t play so it’s not a big loss.

 

[5minutes_of_Dew]

Gang, Lloyd Meek really isn't worth 30 pages of small essays.

There's certainly a lot of emotion involved around a bloke I'd never heard of until about 3 days ago

 

[HairyO]

There's certainly a lot of emotion involved around a bloke I'd never heard of until about 3 days ago

Check out the Jack Bowes thread. Apparently everyone at Geelong was in to him at the start of the year when he had 2 big pay years left on his contract but noone else knew who he was until 9 days ago.

Meek thread is lightweight compared to that.

 

[5minutes_of_Dew]

Check out the Jack Bowes thread. Apparently everyone at Geelong was in to him at the start of the year when he had 2 big pay years left on his contract but noone else knew who he was until 9 days ago.

Meek thread is lightweight compared to that.

Yeah you've got to love the spin/story Geelong has sold to inflate Bowes' mindset

"Gary Abblett had big wraps on him". If you asked Gary who half his teammates were at the suns he probably couldn't help you with an answer

 

[TylerDurden]

Lol. Bell digging in over a bloke who will most likely play WAFL next year, then leave. He's such a w***er.

 

[mayne man]

Lol. Bell digging in over a bloke who will most likely play WAFL next year, then leave. He's such a w***er.

He is contracted and freo don’t have any back up ruckman for Darcy and Jackson! (If lobb leaves)

Darcy also seems to get injured a bit as well.

Holding him to his contract isn’t a bad list management move for next year. Considering our lack of depth with rucks and tall forwards

 

[eastfreo75]

Better minds than mine are making the calls but personally, I dont really want to trade a F3 for Meek.

I like him but seriously, he's played 15 games in 4 years. I cant see his cvalue increasing in 12 months behind Jackson/Darcy and then he is uncontracted.

Our 3rd next year could be in the 30s, which could drop to the late 20s after bids. I would prefer to keep that.

Not sure you understand.

Hawks are offering a F3 this year and Meek next year will get a third round.

Fremantle can keep Meek for a year and not lose any trade value.

 

[FB19]

Check out the Jack Bowes thread. Apparently everyone at Geelong was in to him at the start of the year when he had 2 big pay years left on his contract but noone else knew who he was until 9 days ago.

Meek thread is lightweight compared to that.

Does meek come with pick 7????