Current Lloyd Rayney Trial / Appeal

Melsy

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Pretty sure its bush all the way to the roadside at that track isn't it?
Its quite flat with grass, but I'm not going to post the pic again.

I can imagine the car getting stuck on that stump, wavering around with the wheels spinning, but there is any number of combinations with car jumping as it hit the object. The stump would do that muffler damage.

The weird thing is, there is no damage to the lowest point which is the front bumper. With all the under side damage, you would think the front bumper have some damage either way.
It was only to point out someone had some pre thought into preventing attracting police with a smashed front end.

Either way, a footing wouldn't have done all the damage, and the car bog. What is with that? Someone has been rock crawling elsewhere. The steering frame has scratches like it has been on rocks or kerb?
 

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shellyg

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Anyone know how far the bollards are off the road? I imagine its fairly close & probably grassy, so where's this if its not further into the track?
The bollards are here.

Robin Napper says clearly the damage was done by the car driving forward over the bollard, I assume by the concrete lump holding it in. Corryn was found 50 metres from the road according to 60 Mins.

bollards.png
 

Melsy

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The bollards are here.

Robin Napper says clearly the damage was done by the car driving forward over the bollard, I assume by the concrete lump holding it in. Corryn was found 50 metres from the road according to 60 Mins.
View attachment 582018
1. No damage to front bumper bar (lowest part of the vehicle path)
2. No sign of the concrete footing, but there is a wood stump covered in oil
3. Someone stated a coroner vehicle had been in, in the weeks prior for a suicide investigation, hence the path was used because the bollard was already down for the investigation. This means the bollard was down prior to entry?
4. The steel bollards are just superficial that fold down if stuck by a fire vehicle to get in. Not real bollards.

Maybe there was serious damage on the way out? Not sure how front bumper not damaged? Old bollards very different to new bollards.

The bollard is clearly removed. The image isn't that clear. It could be the pissiest quick-crete footing of all time. If the bollard is down, how is the footing impacted?

 
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shellyg

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Maybe there was serious damage on the way out?
Take it up with Robin Napper?

Why would there be damage to the bumper if you push the bollard over and it gives because the dirt is loosening and lifting the concrete underneath? As it goes down, the footings come up and snag under the car.
 

shellyg

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Melsy

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Oh ... so anybody can just walk off with the bollards? Silly me.

Know your bollards. https://www.safetyxpress.com.au/bol...MIn9qWhZi_3gIV1YyPCh22kgl0EAAYASAAEgKmofD_BwE

Even the removable bollards with a key lock have a resin/concrete footing.
Shelly, bollards are set by contractors. Unless there is something outside the picture, there is no immediate evidence there of a broad concrete footing. The footing should be about 600 x 600 but it depends who puts them in.

I bet you the new bollards are of a new standard. My guess is the car has been over a kerb or island, roundabout at one stage during the ordeal.

There is not a scratch on the lower bumper.

 
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shellyg

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Shelly, bollards are set by contractors. Unless there is something outside the picture, there is no immediate evidence there of a broad concrete footing. The footing should be about 600 x 600 but it depends who puts them in.

I bet you the new bollards are of a new standard.
I cant believe I just watched two videos of how to install a bollard!
 

Melsy

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I cant believe I just watched two videos of how to install a bollard!
If the lump standing up in the picture is wood? A copper sulfate bollard, whats a bet its was set as a non sacrificial bollard which is why the footing is still there. Its probably like an iceberg unlike the hollow versions.
 

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BlueE

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This one not so explainable. Looks to me like the furthest point a car got before reversing out but it spent some time losing oil there. Anyone know how far the bollards are off the road? I imagine its fairly close & probably grassy, so where's this if its not further into the track? View attachment 581887
Rayney tyre tracks.jpg

That's weird. Are they bike tyre tracks?
 

Melsy

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That's weird. Are they bike tyre tracks?
Looks like the car might have bogged on take off? Someone may have dug a trench under the car to access the transmission for a top up of oil. About 4 litres to fill transmission in an ugly spot under the car more suited to a hoist via a difficult spanner job. Not one for the multi-grips.
There is sand thrust out both sides of the tracks, at the stopping point.

The acquaintance said ***** had asked him to help "drive a car for me while I dump a body in Kings Park", a request which he said was refused.
https://www.news.com.au/national/we...y/news-story/5784d147fb9256572c2a2be55a31dbe7


"one of the worse violent offenders in Western Australia" allegedly told the acquaintance "there's a body going in there" as they drove past Kings Park in 2007.
https://www.perthnow.com.au/news/wa...ping-body-ng-5784d147fb9256572c2a2be55a31dbe7

riving past Kings Park about four weeks before Mrs Rayney disappeared when he said "a body is going in there, a body is going in there".
 
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freofc1994

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1. No damage to front bumper bar (lowest part of the vehicle path)
2. No sign of the concrete footing, but there is a wood stump covered in oil
3. Someone stated a coroner vehicle had been in, in the weeks prior for a suicide investigation, hence the path was used because the bollard was already down for the investigation. This means the bollard was down prior to entry?
4. The steel bollards are just superficial that fold down if stuck by a fire vehicle to get in. Not real bollards.

Maybe there was serious damage on the way out? Not sure how front bumper not damaged? Old bollards very different to new bollards.

The bollard is clearly removed. The image isn't that clear. It could be the pissiest quick-crete footing of all time. If the bollard is down, how is the footing impacted?

I'm assuming that piece of concrete is supposed to be the footing for the bollard? If it is then why is there no square indent on it where the bollard was positioned into it and why is it at the top of the bollard instead of the bottom?
 

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There is not a scratch on the lower bumper.

Possibly nitpicking but that right hand light (left facing) looks a little damaged. But yes I would expect more damage. Then the damage should also be visible at the rear.

My thoughts looking at the access is they tried to angle the car through.
 

Melsy

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I'm assuming that piece of concrete is supposed to be the footing for the bollard? If it is then why is there no square indent on it where the bollard was positioned into it and why is it at the top of the bollard instead of the bottom?
I'm not exactly sure what you are saying. However in the picture, I thing the vertical lump is remnants a immovable legacy wooden bollard system. I think someone thought the stump would roll over which didn't bode well for them or the underside of the car.

The image isn't clear enough to establish what the lump is, but it is shaped bad for concrete. The concrete footings aren't necessarily square as depending on who fitted them, the footings were probably a pre-bagged mix thrown in a poorly dug hole. Those timber bollards might have been deep and had a decent lump of concrete. A period of no one is getting in here until someone realised there was a need for emergency vehicles to access the tracks.

The bollard system installed at the time of the incident looked like they were designed for the firetruck to run over if there was a need to get out in the advent of a fire.

The latest bollard installation may however have been the closest we will get to square due to a specification by a designated contractor albeit at a significant cost increase. They can still be knocked over but you'll need at least a 4WD with a bullbar. They look 100x100 but hollow?
 

freofc1994

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I'm not exactly sure what you are saying. However in the picture, I thing the vertical lump is remnants a immovable legacy wooden bollard system. I think someone thought the stump would roll over which didn't bode well for them or the underside of the car.

The image isn't clear enough to establish what the lump is, but it is shaped bad for concrete. The concrete footings aren't necessarily square as depending on who fitted them, the footings were probably a pre-bagged mix thrown in a poorly dug hole. Those timber bollards might have been deep and had a decent lump of concrete. A period of no one is getting in here until someone realised there was a need for emergency vehicles to access the tracks.

The bollard system installed at the time of the incident looked like they were designed for the firetruck to run over if there was a need to get out in the advent of a fire.

The latest bollard installation may however have been the closest we will get to square due to a specification by a designated contractor albeit at a significant cost increase. They can still be knocked over but you'll need at least a 4WD with a bullbar. They look 100x100 but hollow?
So the picture you posted of the up turned bollard isn't from when CR was murdered? Are you saying that the steel bollards (pictured) weren't in situ at the time? Rather timber bollards were in their place?
 
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The bollards are here.

Robin Napper says clearly the damage was done by the car driving forward over the bollard, I assume by the concrete lump holding it in. Corryn was found 50 metres from the road according to 60 Mins.

View attachment 582018
Appears to have been more than the 2 people named in the murder trial judgement who gave evidence regarding the car as the defamation judgement relies on 2 different names but has little detail of what was said.
Of course the judges conclusions may be wrong despite them being accepted by him as the likely scenario.

This image gives a better overall of the site so I can only imagine the sand track image with what appears to be a large amount of oil where the car stopped is further up into the track around the right hand bend nearer to the gravesite? Or it has nothing to do with it which I think is unlikely. If that image is where the car sat for some time, I wonder if the trans expert who posed the accepted scenario at trial of the damage being done on exit, had seen it?
Interesting though, the oil marks identified on these images dont appear to go all the way up into the sand track anyway.
wp_ss_20181107_0001.png
wp_ss_20181107_0002.png
 

shellyg

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This image gives a better overall of the site so I can only imagine the sand track image with what appears to be a large amount of oil where the car stopped is further up into the track around the right hand bend nearer to the gravesite? Or it has nothing to do with it which I think is unlikely. If that image is where the car sat for some time, I wonder if the trans expert who posed the accepted scenario at trial of the damage being done on exit, had seen it?

I cant reconcile how the oil trail seems to lead IN to the gravesite past the bollards when Napper is determined the damage was done on the way OUT. He had a bit more to say about it all and the 60Mins reporter did a loud voice over so I couldn't quite catch it.

Hope I'm not being a slacker and this has already been answered but ... did the killer/s use the same route in as going out?
 

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I cant reconcile how the oil trail seems to lead IN to the gravesite past the bollards when Napper is determined the damage was done on the way OUT. He had a bit more to say about it all and the 60Mins reporter did a loud voice over so I couldn't quite catch it.

Hope I'm not being a slacker and this has already been answered but ... did the killer/s use the same route in as going out?
Interestingly I remember the Police saying that the car parked in Kershaw St because it wouldn't have been able to continue driving with the damage.

Kershaw is a strange place to go considering where the gravesite was. Does anyone know the path travelled by the car. Lovekin onto May, Saw/Rockeby Rd etc.??
 

Melsy

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An odd place to drive as Kershaw is not a direct route off Thomas

During the CCC's Mallard inquiry, Mr Urquhart, like Mr Rayney, was representing a police officer.

Mr Trowell lives on Kershaw Street, where Corryn Rayney's abandoned car was found.

He told the court two other high-profile Perth lawyers, Linda Black and Max Crisp, also owned property on Kershaw Street in August 2007.
On the morning of Wednesday August 8, 2007, Mr Gordon noticed Corryn Rayney's abandoned car on Kershaw Street, Subiaco.

Mr Trowell said he first noticed the car on August 11, 2007, when he was driving into his street with a friend, an ex-detective.


25 Kershaw street
https://www.google.com/maps/place/2...b3dc73357054b!8m2!3d-31.9538075!4d115.8272906

https://www.watoday.com.au/national...al-second-day-of-evidence-20120725-22p1i.html
 
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Interestingly I remember the Police saying that the car parked in Kershaw St because it wouldn't have been able to continue driving with the damage.

Kershaw is a strange place to go considering where the gravesite was. Does anyone know the path travelled by the car. Lovekin onto May, Saw/Rockeby Rd etc.??
Lovekin, May, Saw, Thomas, Heytesbury, Kershaw.
In respect to the eventual end of the car in Kershaw and assuming the deviation off Thomas into the last 2 streets wasnt part of the original plan, they're actually the most logical streets to have turned to get it out of sight quickly. They obviously realised they had severe issues when leaving Kings Park but the only other choices they had to exit were down onto Mounts Bay Rd, an earlier exit onto Thomas St leading straight to the Uni, Stirling Hwy or the hospital or directly into West Perth. Turning right onto Thomas St off Saw Ave was their best choice to reach unseen streets in the shortest distance.

Their 1st option to turn left of Thomas at Nicholson is really close, highly visible & leads straight to Rokeby Rd. Heytesbury was the next choice.

Similarly after turning off on Heytesbury, they'd want to try to get it into another smaller side street & theres only 1 other immediate right turn to choose from which is Townsend Rd and takes you all the way down to Subi oval & over the railway line. Not only very well used, it was also fairly visible from Thomas at the time. It may seem a strange choice but its the most logical option & the shortest route for a failing car you'd prefer to keep out of sight. I can easily understand the choices they made in the circumstances & cant think of a better option tbh. If they didnt know the area, they really lucked out getting it to where they did.
Which was also a stones throw from single mens quarters housing guys recently released from prison &/or with drug issues amongst other possibly relevant properties in the street.
 

Melsy

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Appears to have been more than the 2 people named in the murder trial judgement who gave evidence regarding the car as the defamation judgement relies on 2 different names but has little detail of what was said.
Of course the judges conclusions may be wrong despite them being accepted by him as the likely scenario.

This image gives a better overall of the site so I can only imagine the sand track image with what appears to be a large amount of oil where the car stopped is further up into the track around the right hand bend nearer to the gravesite? Or it has nothing to do with it which I think is unlikely. If that image is where the car sat for some time, I wonder if the trans expert who posed the accepted scenario at trial of the damage being done on exit, had seen it?
Interesting though, the oil marks identified on these images dont appear to go all the way up into the sand track anyway. View attachment 582289 View attachment 582290
Credit where credit is due. Great post! Possibly the best in the thread

https://www.google.com/maps/place/K...a7b90626730e7!8m2!3d-31.9609106!4d115.8321929

https://www.google.com/maps/place/K...a7b90626730e7!8m2!3d-31.9609106!4d115.8321929
 

Melsy

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I cant reconcile how the oil trail seems to lead IN to the gravesite past the bollards when Napper is determined the damage was done on the way OUT. He had a bit more to say about it all and the 60Mins reporter did a loud voice over so I couldn't quite catch it.

Hope I'm not being a slacker and this has already been answered but ... did the killer/s use the same route in as going out?
This is what I don't understand either Shelly. I think you are onto it. My only thoughts were that someone went backwards for a couple of reasons.
1. to take a run up over the stump
2. the gearbox would only engage in reverse with low oil in the sump so they had to go reverse first

So if they are adamant the damage was only done on the way out, the car it the object with a bang, they reversed and had a go at higher speed. At that point, it was the start of major going forward issues.
 

Melsy

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I do ponder you have to be familiar with the grounds, driving on sand tracks to take these kinds of risks.

My first thought in the dark would be getting bogged in a two wheel drive vehicle. That year Fairmont may have had a limited slip differential.
 
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