Long Term Strategy

golions

Team Captain
Joined
Jul 10, 2000
Posts
408
Likes
158
Location
Melbourne
AFL Club
Brisbane Lions
Thread starter #1
Ok team, I was shattered after last night, but I agree that we need to adopt a Growth Mindset, inspired by TheBrownDog mature response to last nights devastating loss and also seeing Zorko's attitude in that last quarter.

To that end, I'm wondering if a thread where a long-term strategy of where players should play based on their strengths would be useful. We have a good list of young players who try their guts out but probably aren't polished yet. So let's put them to their strengths / learning roles while they get games under the belt and the tide starts turning.

In particular, I've propose the following:
The forward line
-young group so the finishing/polish isn't there. But let's get the structure right
-I think the 3 talls (Hipwood, McStay, McInerny) + 2 smalls is the go (Cameron, Taylor) - so that we can play a spare man in defence (see Hodge below). Suggest spreading opposition defences out to minimise the impact of the opposition playing a spare man in defence (ie opposition spare man can only go to one contest if the forwards are spread out)

At the centre bounce: the talls should lead up in the middle of the inside 50 incase there is a quick clearance and a mark can be plucked out (what a beautiful sight it was last night) because you'd back our talls against anyone except Richmond really

but if that doesn't eventuate, then spread the forwards out...

In general play - spread out opposition defences: I think we need to pair up 1 tall and 1 small in each wing of the forward 50 and spread opposition defences out. 1 tall to present a lead and 1 small to crumb / rove the pack

I think McInerney+Cameron and McStay+Taylor are the go.
Part of our issue is that our players don't understand each other's movements - but this will come with time. By pairing up players, it will help them work with and read each other better I reckon.

Hipwood: he was a beautiful kick last year and kicked a lot of clutch goals but his kicking for goal this year has deserted him. That's okay - it will come back. Form is temporary - class is permanent.

But until it does come back - let him run around up the field as a lead up marking target. He will beat almost any defender up the ground due to his pace and height. We seem to be breaking down at the next kick from half back where a lot of turnovers happen - Hipwood would be a great lead up target and I reckon his field kicking is pretty good to find the next link up forward.

Christensen: I love his attack on the footy and his tackling pressure. However, his use of the ball is starting to leave scars. Play him as a tagger or as a defensive forward in the forward 50.

Hodge: I really feel for Hodgey as he is trying his heart out to help us but can't match it one-on-one against key forwards as his body isn't up to it. He was all set to retire last year. Also, he spent the last few years for Hawthorn being the loose man in defence. So let's let him do that - if he is the spare man in defence, it takes the pressure off him to match up one on one and it frees him up to set up play and teach the youngsters.

Clearances question: it absolutely tears my heart out that we can win the hitouts but can't get the clearances. That means that the communication between our ruckmen and midfielders is breaking down - how can the opposition midfielders read our ruckmen better than our own midfielders?
Is it worth getting an out of form midfielder (such as Rich or Beams or both) to follow the ruckmen around just to understand each other better?
 

(Log in to remove this ad.)

lioninthesand

Premiership Player
Joined
Feb 22, 2016
Posts
3,561
Likes
5,369
AFL Club
Brisbane Lions
#4
More Long term, I think over time, zorko, Beams, Rich can be those over 30 heads all good teams have on their lists - but this team is going to be Berry and Cluggs in the next 3-5 years. You can feel it.
 
Last edited:

jason pm

Brownlow Medallist
Joined
Aug 31, 2015
Posts
13,596
Likes
24,610
Location
Walking distance
AFL Club
Brisbane Lions
Other Teams
Fortitude Valley Diehards. Chelsea.
#6
I'm continually dumbfounded by the fact that we for a number of years have very rarely got our senior guys to perform as a group on the one day. On paper we have what would/should be considered a capable senior leadership core ie. Hodge, Martin, Zorko, Robinson, Beams, Rich and Christensen make up a third of our side and have been on field for nearly every game this season.

What the hell is going on with that?

Very hard to get hold of but we probably need an experienced 24-25 year old key defender with leadership qualities. I'm still of the view that if we give Josh Walker an extended run as the more mature KPF he could do a good job for us until McStay, Hipwood, Ballenden and Lukosius;) take over.
 

Nunez

Premium Platinum
Joined
Aug 9, 2013
Posts
10,552
Likes
17,065
Location
Brisbane
AFL Club
Brisbane Lions
#7
I'm continually dumbfounded by the fact that we for a number of years have very rarely got our senior guys to perform as a group on the one day. On paper we have what would/should be considered a capable senior leadership core ie. Hodge, Martin, Zorko, Robinson, Beams, Rich and Christensen make up a third of our side and have been on field for nearly every game this season.

What the hell is going on with that?

Very hard to get hold of but we probably need an experienced 24-25 year old key defender with leadership qualities. I'm still of the view that if we give Josh Walker an extended run as the more mature KPF he could do a good job for us until McStay, Hipwood, Ballenden and Lukosius;) take over.
You'd find a lot of other teams' senior core have played a lot more games together and have built Proper cohesion. Then you take into consideration Beams lack of pre season, rich being injured. Bundy not playing for nearly two years, Robbo missing close to a year and Hodge being an old man and it starts to make more sense.

******* shit, but sadly we don't really have much we can do short term. Long term as our young blokes get experienced the blokes mentioned above will become our second string and we will lift. We've already seen these young guys play well together as a unit - it will be exciting when they can do that with 100 games under their belts.
 

jackess

Hall of Famer
Joined
Aug 10, 2005
Posts
32,616
Likes
25,065
AFL Club
Brisbane Lions
#8
I'm continually dumbfounded by the fact that we for a number of years have very rarely got our senior guys to perform as a group on the one day. On paper we have what would/should be considered a capable senior leadership core ie. Hodge, Martin, Zorko, Robinson, Beams, Rich and Christensen make up a third of our side and have been on field for nearly every game this season.

What the hell is going on with that?

Very hard to get hold of but we probably need an experienced 24-25 year old key defender with leadership qualities. I'm still of the view that if we give Josh Walker an extended run as the more mature KPF he could do a good job for us until McStay, Hipwood, Ballenden and Lukosius;) take over.
I think a massive issue is a lack of two way running with those senior midfielders. Also the small things like shepherding. Someone like Guthrie from a successful club can show leadership and do those defensive aspects of the game well.
 

golions

Team Captain
Joined
Jul 10, 2000
Posts
408
Likes
158
Location
Melbourne
AFL Club
Brisbane Lions
Thread starter #9
I think a massive issue is a lack of two way running with those senior midfielders. Also the small things like shepherding. Someone like Guthrie from a successful club can show leadership and do those defensive aspects of the game well.
Agreed. Need the senior players to lead by example and try their guts out.

I think Zlrko showed leadership in that last quarter. Must be in captaincy consideration for next year especially if Beams is going through a fair bit (feel for him) - might also take a load off Beams shoulders and allow him to play more freely
 

kylegee28

Club Legend
Joined
Mar 31, 2011
Posts
1,199
Likes
1,853
AFL Club
Brisbane Lions
#10
Key Forwards

keyforwards.jpg


Small Forwards

smallforwards.jpg

Midfielders

mids.jpg

Rucks

rucks.jpg


Small Defenders

smalldefenders.jpg

Key Defenders

keydefenders.jpg

Back line's coming along nicely. Building some nice depth there. Lacking some real run and carry at the moment but hopefully the likes of Cox and Allison can keep on improving. Hopefully our lesser tried defenders can work their way into the side eventually. If Jack Frost was able to find some good form and cement a spot in the best 22, it would be an absolute blessing

Midfield is desperately crying out for quality in the 23-26 age bracket.

Forward line still has a lot of work to go. Hopefully Hipwood and McStay can keep on building.
 
Joined
Nov 13, 2011
Posts
1,996
Likes
2,782
Location
Brisbane
AFL Club
Brisbane Lions
#11
Key Forwards

View attachment 497284

Small Forwards

View attachment 497285
Midfielders

View attachment 497286
Rucks

View attachment 497287

Small Defenders

View attachment 497288
Key Defenders

View attachment 497291
Back line's coming along nicely. Building some nice depth there. Lacking some real run and carry at the moment but hopefully the likes of Cox and Allison can keep on improving. Hopefully our lesser tried defenders can work their way into the side eventually. If Jack Frost was able to find some good form and cement a spot in the best 22, it would be an absolute blessing

Midfield is desperately crying out for quality in the 23-26 age bracket.

Forward line still has a lot of work to go. Hopefully Hipwood and McStay can keep on building.
Nice list. I'm assuming green is likely to be in the squad in 2021, yellow are those we aren't sure on, and red retirees? If so, do you think Beams knees/shoulders will let him play into his 30s?
 

(Log in to remove this ad.)

blynd_freddie

Roughed Scuffed & Tuft
Joined
Feb 1, 2007
Posts
6,629
Likes
5,212
Location
in the August fog of '71
AFL Club
Brisbane Lions
Other Teams
The Bulls, Pamplona
#12
A Long Term Strategy - to reach TheBrownDog's 'current' total of 84,660 posts.

So, at golions current posting rate of roughly 21.6 posts/yr then I reckon it would take you just under 3,920 year! Now that's a long term strategy! :moustache:
 

kylegee28

Club Legend
Joined
Mar 31, 2011
Posts
1,199
Likes
1,853
AFL Club
Brisbane Lions
#13
Nice list. I'm assuming green is likely to be in the squad in 2021, yellow are those we aren't sure on, and red retirees? If so, do you think Beams knees/shoulders will let him play into his 30s?
That was what I was going with. It kinda all went out the window when I started overthinking it (I don't know what I was thinking putting Stefan Martin in the green category given he will be 34 :huh:). I was feeling pretty generous to a few players as well who are looking likely to be delisted this year. I think at this stage, the only player on our list who definitely won't be around for the 2021 season is Hodgey. I'm pretty confident Beamer will still be playing.
 

kylegee28

Club Legend
Joined
Mar 31, 2011
Posts
1,199
Likes
1,853
AFL Club
Brisbane Lions
#15
agebrisbane.jpg


Going a little bit further - That 24-26 age bracket is a serious concern at the moment. We've only got one player in that group at the moment who is best 22. Unfortunately, the players we traded in to fill that hole just haven't been quite up to scratch. Will be interesting to see whether in the next few trade periods we try and fill that hole and replace these players, or whether we continue building on that 21-23 age range through the trade period, who are forming our core group and keep on building through the draft. I remember at the time of the go home five, Matthew Lloyd (I think) said it was going to set us back ten years, which I dismissed pretty quickly at the time, given that Docherty and Yeo were fringe players, and the rest couldn't get a game. While 10 years may have been a bit over-exaggerated, he certainly wasn't too far off with just how much damage it did.

2426brisbane.jpg
 
Joined
Nov 13, 2011
Posts
1,996
Likes
2,782
Location
Brisbane
AFL Club
Brisbane Lions
#16
That was what I was going with. It kinda all went out the window when I started overthinking it (I don't know what I was thinking putting Stefan Martin in the green category given he will be 34 :huh:). I was feeling pretty generous to a few players as well who are looking likely to be delisted this year. I think at this stage, the only player on our list who definitely won't be around for the 2021 season is Hodgey. I'm pretty confident Beamer will still be playing.
Fair enough. Always the fun with this kind of exercise - when do you choose to draw your line in the sand.

I reckon Beama's body won't hold up beyond probably end of next season. He's pretty banged up... Zorks will probably get 2 more years out of his, even though he's older, just because he's in better nick.

Edit: That is, Zorks will get 2 more years than Beams. I have Beams retiring probably end 2019 (age 29, would be 30 before next season), Zorko end 2021 (age 32, would be 33 before next season).
 

Dylan12

Brownlow Medallist
Joined
Sep 7, 2007
Posts
15,907
Likes
13,067
Location
Melbourne
AFL Club
Brisbane Lions
Other Teams
Chelsea, Boston Red Sox
#17
Fair enough. Always the fun with this kind of exercise - when do you choose to draw your line in the sand.

I reckon Beama's body won't hold up beyond probably end of next season. He's pretty banged up... Zorks will probably get 2 more years out of his, even though he's older, just because he's in better nick.

Edit: That is, Zorks will get 2 more years than Beams. I have Beams retiring probably end 2019 (age 29, would be 30 before next season), Zorko end 2021 (age 32, would be 33 before next season).
If that is the case re Beams; on reflection, it will be really poor trading on our part.
 
Joined
Nov 13, 2011
Posts
1,996
Likes
2,782
Location
Brisbane
AFL Club
Brisbane Lions
#18
If that is the case re Beams; on reflection, it will be really poor trading on our part.
Yes and no. We knew we paid a lot for him. He was also not really the right age profile for us unless we magically hit our straps in the couple of years following. At the end of the day though, the club couldn't say no to a player who wanted to come to Brisbane. Big marketing draw as well. Tried to show us as a destination club, and tried to reinvigorate the supporter base. Not a great reason to give up draft picks, but also not the stupidest reason to recruit a player. We paid a lot for Bastinac, in part because Lethal shot his mouth off that we had to receive a player back in the Aish trade.

Clubs knew we were desperate (still are, see Adelaide's trading tactic of refusing to negotiate last year) for mature players, and could force us to overpay.
 

Dylan12

Brownlow Medallist
Joined
Sep 7, 2007
Posts
15,907
Likes
13,067
Location
Melbourne
AFL Club
Brisbane Lions
Other Teams
Chelsea, Boston Red Sox
#21
Gotta remember when you're looking at that trade it was quite a weak draft and Crisp was on his way out anyway.
I always thought Crisp was worth more than simply steak knives given his output in the back half of his final season.

All well and good he may have wanted out, but I’d have thought Crisp should still have been a stand alone trade.
 

Jivlain

Pollyanna's statistician
Joined
Sep 19, 2015
Posts
3,260
Likes
5,740
Location
Cambridgeshire
AFL Club
Brisbane Lions
Other Teams
Swansea City, Gumbies FFC
#22
Yes and no. We knew we paid a lot for him. He was also not really the right age profile for us unless we magically hit our straps in the couple of years following. At the end of the day though, the club couldn't say no to a player who wanted to come to Brisbane. Big marketing draw as well. Tried to show us as a destination club, and tried to reinvigorate the supporter base. Not a great reason to give up draft picks, but also not the stupidest reason to recruit a player. We paid a lot for Bastinac, in part because Lethal shot his mouth off that we had to receive a player back in the Aish trade.

Clubs knew we were desperate (still are, see Adelaide's trading tactic of refusing to negotiate last year) for mature players, and could force us to overpay.
Due to academy matching we effectively needed to get rid of pick 17. If you run through the draft with us having it, it gets used on matching Hipwood, 26 is mostly used up matching Keays and we wind up strengthening our draft position by a pick in the 40s. We knew this as the likely scenario going into the draft (and it is what happened), unfortunately, so did all the other clubs who could figure out the implications of where our picks were and where Hipwood & Keays would likely go, and therefore that we would need to make a trade.

Plus we can only deal with that minority of players who’d accept a trade to Brisbane.

All told, a pick in the 40s for a midfielder who ought to be solid best 22 is still a pretty darn good trade - it’s just unfortunate that Basti has been a bit off the boil mostly since coming up.
 
Joined
Nov 13, 2011
Posts
1,996
Likes
2,782
Location
Brisbane
AFL Club
Brisbane Lions
#23
Gotta remember when you're looking at that trade it was quite a weak draft and Crisp was on his way out anyway.
True enough, though pick 5 will usually get you something decent. Not sure whether we missed out with De Goey or dodged a bullet. That said, unless we reached for someone like Cockatoo, the other picks around De Goey didn't really do too much either, even if we had someone else high on our list... So theoretically, he wasn't really that expensive.
Due to academy matching we effectively needed to get rid of pick 17. If you run through the draft with us having it, it gets used on matching Hipwood, 26 is mostly used up matching Keays and we wind up strengthening our draft position by a pick in the 40s. We knew this as the likely scenario going into the draft (and it is what happened), unfortunately, so did all the other clubs who could figure out the implications of where our picks were and where Hipwood & Keays would likely go, and therefore that we would need to make a trade.

Plus we can only deal with that minority of players who’d accept a trade to Brisbane.

All told, a pick in the 40s for a midfielder who ought to be solid best 22 is still a pretty darn good trade - it’s just unfortunate that Basti has been a bit off the boil mostly since coming up.
Fair enough. It was an odd one though, because it was all packaged up with the Aish deal. We actually got compensated reasonably for Aish from a points basis*. But we got them in 2nd rounders instead of a 1st rounder, which is what opened them up to being absorbed in academy bidding. Acting from memory (and several years later, so don't hold me to this), the points we got for Aish totalled somewhere near pick 10, and if we had pick 10, it would've been live. But instead taking the multiple second rounders on offer from Collingwood, we worked it into a complex 3-way deal. Whether we'd have been able to package picks up for a top 10 pick (and whether we'd want to, risking a deficit), or whether Lethal completely painted us into a corner, we'll probably never know.

* I worked it out at the time, and even though it was a complex 3-way deal, you can work out how many draft points North received for Basti, and how many points Collingwood gave up for Aish. Admittedly not perfect given those two clubs weren't tied to the points system like we were, given our academy liabilities, but still, a reasonable estimate.
 

dlanod

Moderator
Joined
Sep 14, 2006
Posts
39,006
Likes
47,358
Location
Sydney
AFL Club
Brisbane Lions
Other Teams
GWS; CCMariners; NQCowboys; Ravens
Moderator #24
Fair enough. It was an odd one though, because it was all packaged up with the Aish deal. We actually got compensated reasonably for Aish from a points basis*. But we got them in 2nd rounders instead of a 1st rounder, which is what opened them up to being absorbed in academy bidding. Acting from memory (and several years later, so don't hold me to this), the points we got for Aish totalled somewhere near pick 10, and if we had pick 10, it would've been live. But instead taking the multiple second rounders on offer from Collingwood, we worked it into a complex 3-way deal. Whether we'd have been able to package picks up for a top 10 pick (and whether we'd want to, risking a deficit), or whether Lethal completely painted us into a corner, we'll probably never know.

* I worked it out at the time, and even though it was a complex 3-way deal, you can work out how many draft points North received for Basti, and how many points Collingwood gave up for Aish. Admittedly not perfect given those two clubs weren't tied to the points system like we were, given our academy liabilities, but still, a reasonable estimate.
That's about it in a fairly big nutshell. I've tried to separate it out a few times because of laments over Bastinac costing us pick 17 or something, but it is a pain. Basically it worked out to be a late second rounder IIRC.
 

Kernel Kurtz

All Australian
Joined
May 5, 2013
Posts
704
Likes
738
AFL Club
Brisbane Lions
#25
I always thought Crisp was worth more than simply steak knives given his output in the back half of his final season.

All well and good he may have wanted out, but I’d have thought Crisp should still have been a stand alone trade.
He was an important piece to our midfield and played that role well that last half of that season.
Also we should remember Beams would of been out of contract the following year , at the time I wasn't ecstatic about Beams coming here because of the cost.
Once it was made I guess the majority were exited.
Just on Crisp , I think it is speculation he was always leaving , I have never heard he was a definite of leaving, only he was willing to be traded or stay if it worked out that way.
 
Top Bottom