tockley
Debutant
losing by 4 pts to carlton wasnt so bad told you guys to relax
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look at carlton
- Thread starter tockley
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ant555
The Oracle
- May 4, 2004
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I said that 3 weeks ago but no one wanted to look at it that way lol
Carlton are not a top eight side but they have improved on last year , have a new president and at the moment their momentum is all forwards.
For whatever reason people have just assumed that the Blues where going to continue to be just as bad as they have been without factoring in any improvement the from the kids they have drafted over the last 4 years.
Carlton are not a top eight side but they have improved on last year , have a new president and at the moment their momentum is all forwards.
For whatever reason people have just assumed that the Blues where going to continue to be just as bad as they have been without factoring in any improvement the from the kids they have drafted over the last 4 years.
I did. Our preseason simply hasn't been that bad. Many more positives than negatives. Carlton sure as hell won't finish at the bottom of the ladder this year, and they played well when we played them in the NAB cup. Losing to the eventual grand-finalist or premier means you hit a team in form.
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Im sincerely hoping it doesnt pan out as it did in the second stages of last season....creditable performances, without the 4 pts. Its just playing out a little too close to that sort of scenario for my liking at the moment. We need to discover some winning habits.
As a few mentioned, the Ess v Carl game was easily the highest standard that weekend. Both primed themselves for this competition.
What also must be remembered, is that Carltons first 18/22, is a very competitive side. Where they have failed miserably in the past, and will probably again this season is in depth. They cant cover injuries as the season goes on, and get the right rotations and as a result without their best team on the park turn into a pretty uncompetitive unit very quickly, almost amazingly quickly if their past is anything to go by.
For us, this is the first time in years that it is pretty damn hard to put together our best first 18. We have multiple options in various positions, and things are changing. Take the midfield, it had the least rotations of any last season, more due to personel than coaching IMO. Thus far in the practise matches, we can see a defninite change here, with a plethora of players being able to rotate through there, this wasnt the case last season.
Look at Carltons games, they are relying on the same groups carrying them in their pre-season games, same guy in the ruck, same old 3-4 in their midfield (sure Murphy is/will be great, but at 19 can he continue this form for 6 months?), the same individual kicking goals. Their backline seems to have an extra dimension tho, with Waite and Ohalpin, which is good for them. Will the same old guys continue to do this all year, or will they fall apart like last season?
With us last season, and against carlton, it wasnt our best players carrying the youth, often it was the youth putting in, with either senior players missing, being underdone or in simply bad form. This is a plus for us.
All teams best 18 are competitive, but depth (and obviously injury) play a huge part in the roations and fortunes of a side.
This is where I think, perhaps biasly, we are ahead of last years co-cellar dwellars Carlton, North & Brisbane - a bit more depth in all areas - compared to last season anyway.
What also must be remembered, is that Carltons first 18/22, is a very competitive side. Where they have failed miserably in the past, and will probably again this season is in depth. They cant cover injuries as the season goes on, and get the right rotations and as a result without their best team on the park turn into a pretty uncompetitive unit very quickly, almost amazingly quickly if their past is anything to go by.
For us, this is the first time in years that it is pretty damn hard to put together our best first 18. We have multiple options in various positions, and things are changing. Take the midfield, it had the least rotations of any last season, more due to personel than coaching IMO. Thus far in the practise matches, we can see a defninite change here, with a plethora of players being able to rotate through there, this wasnt the case last season.
Look at Carltons games, they are relying on the same groups carrying them in their pre-season games, same guy in the ruck, same old 3-4 in their midfield (sure Murphy is/will be great, but at 19 can he continue this form for 6 months?), the same individual kicking goals. Their backline seems to have an extra dimension tho, with Waite and Ohalpin, which is good for them. Will the same old guys continue to do this all year, or will they fall apart like last season?
With us last season, and against carlton, it wasnt our best players carrying the youth, often it was the youth putting in, with either senior players missing, being underdone or in simply bad form. This is a plus for us.
All teams best 18 are competitive, but depth (and obviously injury) play a huge part in the roations and fortunes of a side.
This is where I think, perhaps biasly, we are ahead of last years co-cellar dwellars Carlton, North & Brisbane - a bit more depth in all areas - compared to last season anyway.
toommy
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- Jul 13, 2006
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lets face it if any team was to finish below carlton and north this season they have won the wooden spoon
the first half was terrible last night. carlton are still over-reliant on fev and the roos are just terrible. i think that the roos' new game plan of just bombing it long is going to get them into trouble. team are just going to put two people and thompson and they won't be able to score.
it looks as if carlton have significantly improved from last year though.
it looks as if carlton have significantly improved from last year though.
I will tell you why i was disapointed.
I was at the Carlton game and watched it again on Video.
We turn over the ball A LOT and that is deadly.
I have no problem when a player under pressure turns it over, but when we have players free wheeling through the middle after running out of defense and our players have run forward , then they kick it straight to an opposition player, you are going to pay for it in most cases.
From all reports, and that's all i can go on until i see the video of yesterdays game, we were terrible in this department again.
No doubt we have some exciting talent on our list, but it appears we have the same players making the same mistakes this year, so why should we be any better, barring Loydy being back of course and a hopefuly better run with injuries?
Sure Carlton APPEAR to be a better team so far, but until they PROVE it in the real games, we were beaten by the wooden spooners of last year and a combination of things.
1: Disposal
2: Poor goal kicking, although they were ordinary in this department also
2: Endeaver and hard running
3: To a lesser extent, umpires
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Whitnall still hasn't hit his straps yet after a delayed pre-season and Kennedy who will play CHF for most of this year was a late withdrawal from that side. Hartlett showed alot at both ends last night in Kennedy's absence and it will be harder for Saddington to get a game going by the promise he displayed last night.
Saddington is a bit of squib on the field after he pulled out of a contest with Mark Johnson last year. Adam Hartlett isn't afraid to throw his considerable weight into packs, is a beautiful kick and took a terrific contested mark last night. Hopefully Denis wakes up and plays Bower, Hartlett and even Austin ahead of Saddington this year.
Same players?
I'd say it was a different mix since Gibbs, Russell and Carrazzo are in the middle with Murphy, Bentick and Stevens this year. We've changed the midfield mix this year and Kouta has hardly had a go in there even though he's looking fitter than ever.
I don't recall Ackland, Cloke and Hampson who is a young ruckman with alot of promise having a spot on our list last year. Carlton still have quality kids in Blackwell, Kennedy, Hampson, Edwards, Austin, Grigg, Benjamin, Anderson and Jacobs sitting in the stands.
This is a totally different side to the won the WOK 2 years ago off the back of Chambers, Teague and the like. Carlton only beat North, Essendon and Hawthorn and all four of those sides will finish in the bottom eight this year.
Regarding injuries, thats purely speculation though. If they manage to field their best team on the paddock week in, week out, they'll match us.
Murphy will be able to produce all season...he has proven in his short career, that he is capable of that. Not everyday that a 19 year old is a candidate as captain so soon.
In regards to last season, we still relied on too few to turn the game around or keep us in the game..namely Fletcher, Lucas and Hird. Our middle tier players really need to improve immediately to rectify this unhealthy habit.
Sure, we have the personnel now, but theyre still yet to prove anything to propel us higher on the ladder.
completely agree. We have to know how to win. Let's hope we can get confidence with renewed pace, and turn those credible performances into wins
Thats fine, but Im not sure what the point was here? I never said you didnt have kids, or shouldnt play Saddington.
Yes, but who were your main midfield possession getters last night? Stephens, Scotland, Houlihan & Murphy had a big last quarter etc. Yes, you have kids like Gibbs, Russell and Carazzo, but they didnt carry you over the line last night. They had 27 touches between the three of em.
It was your tried and trusted core players, and of course the heavy reliance of Fev to kick bags which have gotten you over the line.
Yes, you do have kids, and should as well, considering the draft selections you have had over the past 4 or 5 years. But none of those guys have yet to prove they are consistant, AFL contributors week in, week out...yet. Hence your depth issue. A lack of depth doesnt mean you have no kids or future, it simply means at this very point in time, you struggle to cover many injuries which may accur, and have occured over the past seasons.
I agree, but who mentioned your pre-season cup 2 years ago?
FWIW I think that Carlton will shortly start a rapid rise up the table. The draft scenario was created for this to happen.
Like us, you have to get the core of your kids at that level to be regular contributors at AFL level. Mentioning guys like Gibbs and Kennedy, is like us mentioning Gumbleton and Ryder. They wont be at the required level for some time, especially the 3 KPP ones.
All my point was, was that Carlton has a good list, and a good first 18 - much better than many people realise. But the reason why they have won and looked good in a few games, yet tumbled and looked a rabble in far too many is an undesired realiance on a certain few, due to having kids not up to the level, YET.
Carlton, at full strength at their best, do not represent a team which looked like a rabble the past year or two. Depth caused this more than anything, not a bad bunch of senior players.
I was actually sorta praising Carlton, who are not the rabble many think or look like on paper after their past 2 years. As much as I dont want to accept it, Carlton will suprise many in the not too distance future, dont worry. Perhaps like Brisbane in 99 or whenever it was, dont be suprised if your rise is very quick, and sharp, when it does finally happen.
Thats all.
Smell The Glove
Cancelled
O'hAilpin. Waite. Hartlett. Even Cloke.
Apart from O'hAilpin, and only in the second half of last year at that, none of those had any impact in our defensive half. No reason at all to suggest that those players will not play major roles in our defensive set up this year, freeing Big Red to his customary CHF role and Thornton to take the third defender and rebound off half back which he does so well.
The Old Dark Navy's
Moderator
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He wasn't talking about defensive depth, he was talking about depth of potential defectors, thus the Thornton and Russell mentions. It was a dig.
How? He is played half a season of senior footy in his life.
hardly proven at the level as a stayer for the 22 rounds.
Younger teams will always go through more players and injuries that those with more developed bodies. If Essendon or Carlton are relying on their kids playing at the level for 22 rounds, god help em.
Look at our KP spine, we can within reason rely on Lloyd, Lucas, Fletcher and MM to be stayers at the level for the majority of the season. Can carlton with Thornton/Ohalpain/Waite/Kennedy, who by the looks of things are relied upon already as KPP in their best setup with Fev?
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what are you on about?
who said he didnt have a good first half dozen games?
Im talking about kids and their bodies holding up, hence specifically mentioning his age; many youngsters struggle through their first few seasons with various injuries, and general wear on their not physically ready bodies.
How many first year players play every game on the ball from round 1 and dont get injured?
Yes, Murphy played a good first half of the season, then what hapened? He got injured, suprise suprise.
Do you honestly think if Gibbs, or Gumby, or Ryder, or Dempsey, or Houli or any other first or 2nd year 18/19 year olds, if played EVERY game from round one in key positions (not eased in for a quarter a game, which Carlton dont have the luxury to do), would have bodies which would hold out the season?
My point was his age and physical development, not ability or consistancy.
How can one be "proven" to play consistently well for 22 rounds, when he has barely done half that in his life?
who said he didnt have a good first half dozen games?
Im talking about kids and their bodies holding up, hence specifically mentioning his age; many youngsters struggle through their first few seasons with various injuries, and general wear on their not physically ready bodies.
How many first year players play every game on the ball from round 1 and dont get injured?
Yes, Murphy played a good first half of the season, then what hapened? He got injured, suprise suprise.
Do you honestly think if Gibbs, or Gumby, or Ryder, or Dempsey, or Houli or any other first or 2nd year 18/19 year olds, if played EVERY game from round one in key positions (not eased in for a quarter a game, which Carlton dont have the luxury to do), would have bodies which would hold out the season?
My point was his age and physical development, not ability or consistancy.
How can one be "proven" to play consistently well for 22 rounds, when he has barely done half that in his life?
Smell The Glove
Cancelled
Oh, my bad. Still, you didnt have to come on here just to say that!
Before his shoulder injury, he had bolted out of the blocks, was a clear favourite for the Rising Star Award. Buckley back in 93 burst onto the scene in much the same fashion. If Murphy hadnt succumbed to the injury, I have no doubt Murphy wouldve pulled those numbers all season. Aside from your generalisiation, Im specifically speaking of Murphy if you took the time to digest my response.
F**k Carlton.
They are a wooden spoon side and we lost to them!
They have beaten us, the Hawks, Kangas and will beat Brisbane to win the damn thing.
If you look at most pundits predictions on all the teams above, they will be bottom five this year inlucding us. They haven't beaten anyone of note. They have had there best 22 out there.
It will be a miracle if they avoid the spoon this year.
Thrawn
Premium Platinum
Just to clarify here: Murphy didn't get injured simply because he was young and had a smaller frame, he was dumped hard by a tackle, where his arm was driven into the ground vertically. The way his arm was positioned was simply bad luck and that in itself had more to do with his injury than his actual age our build.
For that matter, it could've happened to any other player were they in Murph's position.