Multiplat Loot Boxes, Gambling or Not?

quotemokc

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I am sure most people are aware of the huge uproar going on towards EA and them having loot boxes in their full price game Battlefront 2.

It seems that the gaming community is getting fed up with them in being in every game as a way to milk as much money from the consumer as possible.

One tact is that they (the community) are pointing to them as a source of gambling aimed at children. (and others)

Battlefront & Overwatch's Loot Boxes Under Investigation In Belgium

https://www.kotaku.com.au/2017/11/battlefront-overwatchs-loot-boxes-under-investigation-in-belgium/

So many games have them now, it used to be a standard practice for free or cheap games to have them as purely cosmetic options for those dedicated enough to the game to buy as they wish. But now you cannot escape them and Battlefront 2 has almost made them a must buy in order to be competitive in the game.

I have spent hundreds on League of Legends since 2009 on skins I really wanted and that is fine as it was my choice and I knew exactly what I was purchasing.

I don't buy loot crates with real money. I have on occasion bought keys to open them in some games which is just as bad but as a whole I have probably spent less than $100 on them over the last couple of years. But once again these are for cosmetic purposes.

I don't even want to touch the subject of paying to progress as is the entire model of almost all mobile apps as you pretty much hit a brick wall until you start spending. (Candy Crush, Clash of Clans etc)

But should they be considered a source of gambling? I have read that buying loot crates is no different to say buying a packet of Pokemon cards that could have anything in it and kids have been buying them forever. Is that different because that is the entire purpose of Pokemon cards?
 

GeelongFTW

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Because you are guarnteed to get something i dont think it could be classed as gambling.
 

Gralin

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Because you are guarnteed to get something i dont think it could be classed as gambling.
if you can spend money to get them then yes it is

it's funny there are plenty of mobile games, mostly made in Asia that use this kind of mechanic, summons, loot boxes, etc, they don't post the odds, though China recently changed the law so in China they have to post the odds

It's definitely gambling when you can pay
 

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GeelongFTW

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Are you sure? I mean consider a claw machine. You might get something or you might not>gambling

Purchase loot crate> collect stuff (even if it aint want you want)
 

Gralin

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Are you sure? I mean consider a claw machine. You might get something or you might not>gambling

Purchase loot crate> collect stuff (even if it aint want you want)
Yeah I'm sure

The whole premise is there is a range of items from trash to gold, free ones get you hooked, when you open one and get a good item it feels like a win its like when the pokies make that noise or your horse wings etc

If you get excited about opening a loot box because you might win then its like gambling, once they add in the you can buy them it is 100% gambling

the only difference is that you are paying money for imaginary shit that you don't own
 

quotemokc

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Is it bad if gambling is in games with in game currency or only if it forces people to spend real money or is it irrelevant?

All (I think) the Pokemon games have the casino corners with slot machines that you can gamble all your coins away on.

Is that an issue as well or just a game mechanic?
 

Gralin

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Is it bad if gambling is in games with in game currency or only if it forces people to spend real money or is it irrelevant?

All (I think) the Pokemon games have the casino corners with slot machines that you can gamble all your coins away on.

Is that an issue as well or just a game mechanic?
there is the argument that in game gambling without real currency is just training people for the real thing, ala lollies that looked like ciggies, ah fads

you have all these kids toys now that are blind sales with rare items, like the old collectors cards, pokemon etc, the question is whether these sorts of things indoctrinate people into gambling behavior, they certainly seem to be a good way to make money because people are gambling for items not cash
 

quotemokc

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loot boxes that you buy and card packs that you buy are the exact same thing
I guess a slight difference is physical vs digital?

If League Of Legends shut down tomorrow I won't be getting my money back.
 

Gralin

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I guess a slight difference is physical vs digital?

If League Of Legends shut down tomorrow I won't be getting my money back.
i was talking about virtual card packs like Madden Ultimate Team in response to another post

yes if you buy physical collectors cards you could end up with something worth money that you can sell, plenty of people sell virtual objects for money against the terms of service
 

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Donakebab

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For mine, purely cosmetic crates are fine, but fu** pay to win bullshit off right now. EA is a cancer and after the truly awful number they have done to SW:BF2, after butchering the first with a rag tag empty shell of a game, I will be actively avoid any games they or any studio under their umbrella release.
 

Knighta21

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Yep, Would be fine if they had an in game currency that you get for playing the game and allowed loot boxes to get "Cosmetic" items from that currency but it's so bad and while people continue to put real money in, why would they stop?
 

Runk

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Yeah I'm sure

The whole premise is there is a range of items from trash to gold, free ones get you hooked, when you open one and get a good item it feels like a win its like when the pokies make that noise or your horse wings etc

If you get excited about opening a loot box because you might win then its like gambling, once they add in the you can buy them it is 100% gambling

the only difference is that you are paying money for imaginary shit that you don't own
Nailed it.
 

UnitedWarrior93

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Yep, long gone are the days where you pay $70 for a game and that’s it, you just play the game after that. Theres just so much more to games after you spend that initial $70 nowadays it’s a joke.

I know a mate who is obsessed with Ultimate team on FIFA, and ended up spending nearly $1k on FIFA 17 with those card packs, he couldn’t stop!!

As long as people like him are pumping money in, it won’t stop these companies doing it.
 

fpcookie

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It's a bit of grey area to me. But it's definitely programmed to trigger the brain in the same way as gambling does so it's very similar.

I'm not really against gambling in general so I'm not really against lootboxes (Overwatch for example) but I think the Pay2Win mechanic in a full priced multiplayer game is a ******* joke and I'd never play a game with that mechanic.
 

Dannnnnnnnnn

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It makes use of the same reward pathways and the same patterns of use that lead to addiction.

Whether it's "gambling" or not is a meaningless, semantic argument. The more poignant point is whether it preys on the vulnerable in a way that is unbecoming to video games. I would argue that it is.
 

Gralin

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There are people out there that have a lot of money and will pump it into games to be the best, I'm talking over $100k on pay to win gambling

Add to that the average bloke who might do the $5-500 transaction and it's no wonder companies are doing it.

It needs to be regulated they have a loop hole at the moment.

I have no issue with the optional new content stuff, extra cars, tracks, areas that you can buy but don't need to experience the core game you bought.

It's another breason single player games are becoming rarer, paytowin works best in multiplayer.

Company can say you don't have to pay to play but when you keep getting ganked by those that do you either quit or join the arms race

It's why I prefer single player games
 

MightyTiger

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It's most definitely gambling, even pokie machines give a return each spin, it's the same thing as loot boxes, CS GO is the worst imo that I've come across, CS GO was recently released in China and because of there laws they had to release the odds of each box, apparently to get a rare item it is a less then 1% chance, yes that's right, less then 1% chance to get a rare item, so we're talking a knife skin or gloves, those types of odds are absolutely pathetic but yet companies still get away with it. Valve is currently being sued by a group of people for this micro transaction rubbish, not sure how the lawsuit is going but hopefully something comes of it and companies get rid of micro transactions all together.

Found the odds in an article.

Mil-spec to Restricted is 1:5

Mil-spec to Classified is 1:25

Mil-spec to Covert is 1:125

Mil-spec to Knife/Glove is 2:625

Normal to StatTrak is 1:10

Based off calculations:

Rarity%
Mil-spec 79.92%
Restricted 15.98%
Classified 3.2%
Covert 0.64%
Knife/Glove 0.26%

And for those that don't know about the prices, it's $2.50 USD to buy a key to open a case, so it's roughly about $3 AUD to open a case, and going by these numbers to get a rare item we'd need to spend roughly almost $2000 to get a rare item, and the rare item could be worth $40-50 or it could be worth thousands depending on the type of skin you get, and those numbers don't include the cases, some cases themselves prices range from $0.1C to $10 USD a case.

Somebody tell me this isn't robbery and gambling, but because it's a virtual item these companies can get away with it, yet Steam has its own market that involves real money, I don't know how they're allowed to get away with it but they do. Bring back the days of spending 70$ on a game and getting the full game, no dlcs no season passes no micro transactions no nothing, just a game and endless hours of fun.
 

beta_condition

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It's most definitely gambling, even pokie machines give a return each spin, it's the same thing as loot boxes, CS GO is the worst imo that I've come across, CS GO was recently released in China and because of there laws they had to release the odds of each box, apparently to get a rare item it is a less then 1% chance, yes that's right, less then 1% chance to get a rare item, so we're talking a knife skin or gloves, those types of odds are absolutely pathetic but yet companies still get away with it. Valve is currently being sued by a group of people for this micro transaction rubbish, not sure how the lawsuit is going but hopefully something comes of it and companies get rid of micro transactions all together.

Bring back the days of spending 70$ on a game and getting the full game, no dlcs no season passes no micro transactions no nothing, just a game and endless hours of fun.
These type of lootboxes aren't the real problem, you can argue the damaging effects of the practice sure but it's minor compared to when game companies specifically developed them into the core of the game. There's a huge difference between spending money on the possibility to get rare item which is purely cosmetic and has real life trade value compared to buying the chance to unlock content. Lets not even get started that companies now monitor you buying habits and specifically target to your weaknesses.

Locking content on a disc was bad enough when Capcom started releasing dlc on disc back in like 2008 but now we're at a point where content is sliced into lootboxes where even if you spend money you're not guaranteed to get the content which was developed along side the game which should be released with the main product.

NO there's plenty of good examples of dlc not only bringing a product but to life but expending it's universe and the perception of the original product. Just because large amounts of companies abuse the original idea of dlc doesn't mean it's flawed. Bloodborne is the perfect example of dlc done right, clearly material produced after the original game which expanded upon the games lore, it was a product worthy of buying on it's own. Support the companies which do it right and boycott the ones which don't. As for season passes don't buy them, just like preordering don't ******* do it.
 

ioppolo

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Just boycott them. Will speak louder than any investigation.
 

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