Universal Love Holding Faith in Stephen Wells and Mackie (a.k.a. "In Wells We Trust")

[OzeSparky]

I'm curious, has any upset posters on here emailed the club?

 

[Saint]

I'd only call Duncan and Guthrie wins right now. If Menzel can stay fit he will be. As you say, too early to tell with the rest.

Menzel, Cowan, Thurlow, McCarthy and Gregson have all had long periods of injury relative to their time at Geelong. Keep in mind that as the cats have been finishing fairly high on the ladder, there haven't been a lot of quality picks for Wells to use. Cockatoo is still very green but watching him against Essendon in the VFL, he seemed a class above even if his work-rate wasn't huge.

 

[sauron256]

I'm curious, has any upset posters on here emailed the club?

I'm composing my letter now.

 

[Partridge]

Menzel, Cowan, Thurlow, McCarthy and Gregson have all had long periods of injury relative to their time at Geelong. Keep in mind that as the cats have been finishing fairly high on the ladder, there haven't been a lot of quality picks for Wells to use. Cockatoo is still very green but watching him against Essendon in the VFL, he seemed a class above even if his work-rate wasn't huge.

Perhaps. So who put a gun to his head and forced him to trade our 2nd pick in 2012 for Hamish McIntosh? Or trading Varcoe for Mitch Clark? Neither of those have got anything to do with ladder positions.

You know how many players joined Geelong's senior list in the 2012 off-season? Six. Jackson Thurlow, Hamish McIntosh, Josh Caddy, Jared Rivers, Brad Hartman, and Jesse Stringer. You know how many are left now? One.

But that's ok, because we had 2013 to follow. We took five players - Lang, Jansen, Kolodnashnij, Walker, and Burbury. Two are left.

Two successive drafts, eleven players brought in, and only four years later, only three remain. That isn't sustainable.

 

[Podsnap]

Perhaps. So who put a gun to his head and forced him to trade our 2nd pick in 2012 for Hamish McIntosh? Or trading Varcoe for Mitch Clark? Neither of those have got anything to do with ladder positions.

You could argue they have more to do with premiership winning. We needed a ruck and a chf. If they didnt reinjure themselves it would have been seen as genius.

 

[Art Vandelay_]

Perhaps. So who put a gun to his head and forced him to trade our 2nd pick in 2012 for Hamish McIntosh? Or trading Varcoe for Mitch Clark? Neither of those have got anything to do with ladder positions.

Needed a ruck. Gamble failed.
Salary dump to get Danger. Worked out ok I think.

Glad that was cleared up...

 

[SJ]

Yep, we have picked up plenty of ordinary footballers, but I expect other clubs will have a pretty similar strike rate too, unless high picks or academies are prevalent.
Menzel, Duncan, Cowan, Guthrie, McCarthy, Thurlow, Lang, Kolo, Cockatoo, Gregson, Menegola, Ruggles-think all from draft? am calling all these wins or still time to call potential wins.
Agree its time now that we pick up a young A grader or 2 in the draft but they don't grow on trees. Am more interested in focussing on making available cattle better. Like the Dogs-quite a few high picks but not that many 'A' graders, but everyone plays their best.

The Bulldogs have pretty much drafted an entire premiership side (and sundries) in that time though.

 

[Podsnap]

The Bulldogs have pretty much drafted an entire premiership side (and sundries) in that time though.

With some help of draft picks 4 6 and some father sons. Their drafting has been exceptional but bottoming out hard helped.

 

[Art Vandelay_]

The Bulldogs have pretty much drafted an entire premiership side (and sundries) in that time though.

They also bottomed out, we on the other hand have elected not to, but instead elected to try and eek out another flag whilst Selwood, Taylor and Hawkins are still here.

Even if it fails it was worth trying for.
If it fails we go for a full rebuild and stockpile picks and players over a 3-5 year period.

Clubs like the Dogs and Saints have shown if you get the rebuild right you can bounce back quickly. Personally I'm not scared or afraid of that eventuality. It'll happen to every club over time.

I know you're a draft is king kinda guy and that's fine, but if the worst thing this club does is try and utilise the new FA mechanisms and easier trading ability for a few years to get a flag then so be it.

If it fails we go back and do it the old fashioned way, the club will still be here 10 years from now so not even slightly concerned. Once you get your head around that it really pails into insignificance if we've tried something that may end in failure (but hasn't yet), rebuilding while GWS dominate is probably smarter than being a club that's peaking right as they are (hi Saints, Dees, Blues etc).

 

[romeohwho]

The Bulldogs have pretty much drafted an entire premiership side (and sundries) in that time though.

Yep, agree but started from a pretty different base and do see their rise since Beveridge, as exceptional rather than the norm. And they got some terrific high picks on which to build their side. The key there seems to me though, to be that everyone, regardless of how high or low a pick, has improved. And that seems to me to be more of a concern of Geelong. If Duncan and the youngsters step up, we are right in any mix.

 

[Gee Class Loco]

Wells is the BEST thing the GFC has in its corner.
Bar none.

All i heard for the last two years was we have no core in the 25-29 age bracket. I'll say it again the last A grade player we have drafted was Joel Selwood in 2006 it's now 2016. Not one A grade talent in 10 years. That's not an amazing recruiter that's mediocrity.

Look at the drafting numbers last 12 years it's a daunting read. And you know what celebrate that preliminary final but it's not 2004 this team isn't developing. Dangerfield, Selwood put on seasons to remember. Enright, Taylor, Hawkins were planks of reliability. You think that core will deliver again to that standard? Not likely to get a clean run like that again.

There is a reason I'm advocating for Wells departure. Smedts, Brown, Kersten, Hamling, Caddy, McIntosh, Clark all bona-fide trades/drafting costing top 35 picks last 5 years all busts. You Hit two of those you might have a flag not a preliminary final team.

Sent from my SM-A300Y using Tapatalk

So Wells has only drafted one A grader since 2006?? Not an Amazing recruiter? Mediocre at best??
Let's have a look at that daunting read.
Mmm...
2007 Pick 17 Harry Taylor AA x 2?? *Rookie Draft Shane Mumford. Both A Graders!
There goes you claim of "NO A Graders since 2006"

But let me have a closer look at how things have panned out in the next 8 years.

2008 Pick 39 Steven Motlop AA squad 2013? A grade talent make no mistake about it. Wells drafts them on talent.
2009 Pick 17 Daniel Menzel*INJURED* Pick 28 Mitch Duncan Pick 40 Allan Christensen Pick 56 Josh Cowan *Rookie Draft James Podsiadly

Now in 2010 Gold Coast had entered the League and had 8 of the top 13 picks.
2010 Pick 15 Smedts* INJURED* Pick 23 Cam Guthrie. Only 6 A grade players from that draft were Gaff, Prestia, Heppell, Parker, Isaac Smith and Tom McDonald.
With 3 being gone prior to our pick.

Now in 2011 GWS Giants enter the League taking the top 11 of 14 picks.
2011 First pick is number 32. Only player worth a grain of salt drafted after that. Lachine Neale and Brad Hill.
But Wells did find Linc McCarthy @66. Jed Bews was a F/S. *Rookie Draft Mark Blicavs 2015 B&F Winner.
2012 Pick 16 Jackson Thurlow*. Only players worth a grain of salt after that Mason Wood & Brodie Grundy. Our next pick was 77?? Brad Hartman.
In reality we had 1 pick.
2013 Pick 16 Darcy Lang. Who did we miss out on?? Hartung? Dunstan? Acres? Taylor? Gardiner? In Reality the only ones that you'd be a little excited about
are Rory Lobb & Zach Merrett. He did pick up Kolo @41
2014 Pick 10 Nakia Cockatoo. No one other than Isaac Heeney to get excited about. Nice pick up go Gregson @47 though IMO.
2015 First Pick at 59. lets just wait 3 years to make a call. But, we went into Free agency rather than drafting 18 yo's Dangerfield, Henderson, Zac Smith
and Scotty Selwood.

Just so people understand what the last 5 years(since 2011) has produced after our picks and put it in perspective.
Only 1 AA squad player or A grader... that being Lachine Neale IMO.

So please read my rebuttal of sorts and feel free to point out anything that you're not happy with, if i've made any errors(there might be?).
But I think statements like Wells recruiting being mediocre and has not done any amazing recruiting is quite frankly incorrect on many levels.
You can only play the hand you are dealt.
Those names I've put up is why I am advocating he's retention.

Cheers Boys and I hope you enjoy my rant of sorts.

 

[Mad_Hatter]

Something in the dogs favour also was they failed, they didn't win flags, so it was easier to move veterans and the core group on whereas when you have won flags those Champions stick around (listen to the vitriol the cats have gotten for getting rid of Chappy, SJ, Varcoe, Kelly etc) which means you don't turn the list over as much as you should or would have normally.
That's a positive if you can keep going and snare another flag but if not ends the same way albeit 7-8 years after it should have.
I'd certainly rather the club try to win a flag now than get rid of everyone on the chance we could win one in 6-8 years time.

 

[SJ]

Something in the dogs favour also was they failed, they didn't win flags, so it was easier to move veterans and the core group on whereas when you have won flags those Champions stick around (listen to the vitriol the cats have gotten for getting rid of Chappy, SJ, Varcoe, Kelly etc) which means you don't turn the list over as much as you should or would have normally.
That's a positive if you can keep going and snare another flag but if not ends the same way albeit 7-8 years after it should have.
I'd certainly rather the club try to win a flag now than get rid of everyone on the chance we could win one in 6-8 years time.

We have moved on a lot of our veterans anyway so I don't buy that.

Also we have used draft picks, list spots and salary cap space to bring in non-essential players.

I don't expect Geelong to have won the flag in 2016 by having a strategic rebuild, but I expected that we'd be heading in the right direction. I honestly am worried about what is around the corner now given the lack of quality we have coming through and the lack of currency we have to gain any additional talent.

 

[Danger!Selwood]

All i heard for the last two years was we have no core in the 25-29 age bracket. I'll say it again the last A grade player we have drafted was Joel Selwood in 2006 it's now 2016. Not one A grade talent in 10 years. That's not an amazing recruiter that's mediocrity.

Look at the drafting numbers last 12 years it's a daunting read. And you know what celebrate that preliminary final but it's not 2004 this team isn't developing. Dangerfield, Selwood put on seasons to remember. Enright, Taylor, Hawkins were planks of reliability. You think that core will deliver again to that standard? Not likely to get a clean run like that again.

There is a reason I'm advocating for Wells departure. Smedts, Brown, Kersten, Hamling, Caddy, McIntosh, Clark all bona-fide trades/drafting costing top 35 picks last 5 years all busts. You Hit two of those you might have a flag not a preliminary final team.

Sent from my SM-A300Y using Tapatalk

So Selwood is the only A grader drafted since 2006? Harry Taylor not an A grader?

 

[Mad_Hatter]

We have moved on a lot of our veterans anyway so I don't buy that.

Also we have used draft picks, list spots and salary cap space to bring in non-essential players.

I don't expect Geelong to have won the flag in 2016 by having a strategic rebuild, but I expected that we'd be heading in the right direction. I honestly am worried about what is around the corner now given the lack of quality we have coming through and the lack of currency we have to gain any additional talent.

We moved on veterans when they weren't worth much.
Look at when bomber took over and we moved on blokes like Mansfield which netted us picks which we used on what would become 3 time premiership players.
That's what I mean. Being able to trade away guys with currency to bring in young talent. It's far easier when those guys arent Premiership heroes still in a window of success.

 

[SJ]

We moved on veterans when they weren't worth much.
Look at when bomber took over and we moved on blokes like Mansfield which netted us picks which we used on what would become 3 time premiership players.
That's what I mean. Being able to trade away guys with currency to bring in young talent. It's far easier when those guys arent Premiership heroes still in a window of success.

Sure. But I note that Dale Morris, Rob Murphy, Matthew Boyd are all still at the Bulldogs. It's not as though they cleaned out veterans for the sake of it.

 

[Mad_Hatter]

Sure. But I note that Dale Morris, Rob Murphy, Matthew Boyd are all still at the Bulldogs. It's not as though they cleaned out veterans for the sake of it.

Agreed, they astutely moved on mid range types and brought in young talent and developed them correctly (BMac has his name all over this I believe) and have reaped the rewards.
I just don't think the cats could or should have done the same.
Anyway I actually forget what the initial point of discussion was lol.

 

[BUSTER29]

They also bottomed out, we on the other hand have elected not to, but instead elected to try and eek out another flag whilst Selwood, Taylor and Hawkins are still here.

Even if it fails it was worth trying for.
If it fails we go for a full rebuild and stockpile picks and players over a 3-5 year period.

Clubs like the Dogs and Saints have shown if you get the rebuild right you can bounce back quickly. Personally I'm not scared or afraid of that eventuality. It'll happen to every club over time.

I know you're a draft is king kinda guy and that's fine, but if the worst thing this club does is try and utilise the new FA mechanisms and easier trading ability for a few years to get a flag then so be it.

If it fails we go back and do it the old fashioned way, the club will still be here 10 years from now so not even slightly concerned. Once you get your head around that it really pails into insignificance if we've tried something that may end in failure (but hasn't yet), rebuilding while GWS dominate is probably smarter than being a club that's peaking right as they are (hi Saints, Dees, Blues etc).

Makes sense.
So tell me why we traded out Caddy again for a draft pick?

 

[Seeds]

With some help of draft picks 4 6 and some father sons. Their drafting has been exceptional but bottoming out hard helped.

We did get a massive leg up to with the ablett compo picks. Also got some reasonable picks for other periphery players because the talent of our list was highly sought after 6 years ago. Mumford gave us the pick for duncan. Prismall gave us the pick for motlop. We could of traded a Johnson or bartel or enright at 29-30 to get top 10 picks if we had focussed on the long term as gws and Gold Coast were willing to pay massive overs for those sort of players.

Let's face it. We had a massive opportunity to rebuild a powerful list heading into the next couple of years and we blew it big time.

 

[Art Vandelay_]

Makes sense.
So tell me why we traded out Caddy again for a draft pick?

I don't know, I'm not within the 4 walls. I can like the overall strategy you know without having to agree with every decision made.

I'd like Barlow as a delisted free agent though. Short term replaces Caddy's role to align with our present goals and then use 24 at the draft. Doubt we pick him up though.

 

[Seeds]

I don't know, I'm not within the 4 walls. I can like the overall strategy you know without having to agree with every decision made.

I'd like Barlow as a delisted free agent though. Short term replaces Caddy's role to align with our present goals and then use 24 at the draft. Doubt we pick him up though.

Can you tell us what the strategy is then?

 

[Art Vandelay_]

Can you tell us what the strategy is then?

I already have. Read before posting.

 

[Danger!Selwood]

The Bulldogs have pretty much drafted an entire premiership side (and sundries) in that time though.

They also spent 5 years where they won less than 10 games. We haven't had a single season since 2003 that he have won under ten games. Drafting is a gamble, using picks and free agency to get known quantities- Danger, S.Selwood, Smith, Henderson and Tuohy is smart business. There's not a great deal we can do when a player wants out such as Caddy, just get what you can and move on. The difference between pick 15 and 25 in the draft over the past 6 years would be very negligible.

 

[Danger!Selwood]

Sure. But I note that Dale Morris, Rob Murphy, Matthew Boyd are all still at the Bulldogs. It's not as though they cleaned out veterans for the sake of it.

And they won a flag without Murphy in the side all year. So effectively losing a veteran and whacking him in the coaches box has worked well and allowed a younger player such as Biggs to flourish and play a role in a premiership winning side?

 

[Moggy]

Wells is the BEST thing the GFC has in its corner.
Bar none.


So Wells has only drafted one A grader since 2006?? Not an Amazing recruiter? Mediocre at best??
Let's have a look at that daunting read.
Mmm...
2007 Pick 17 Harry Taylor AA x 2?? *Rookie Draft Shane Mumford. Both A Graders!
There goes you claim of "NO A Graders since 2006"

But let me have a closer look at how things have panned out in the next 8 years.

2008 Pick 39 Steven Motlop AA squad 2013? A grade talent make no mistake about it. Wells drafts them on talent.
2009 Pick 17 Daniel Menzel*INJURED* Pick 28 Mitch Duncan Pick 40 Allan Christensen Pick 56 Josh Cowan *Rookie Draft James Podsiadly

Now in 2010 Gold Coast had entered the League and had 8 of the top 13 picks.
2010 Pick 15 Smedts* INJURED* Pick 23 Cam Guthrie. Only 6 A grade players from that draft were Gaff, Prestia, Heppell, Parker, Isaac Smith and Tom McDonald.
With 3 being gone prior to our pick.

Now in 2011 GWS Giants enter the League taking the top 11 of 14 picks.
2011 First pick is number 32. Only player worth a grain of salt drafted after that. Lachine Neale and Brad Hill.
But Wells did find Linc McCarthy @66. Jed Bews was a F/S. *Rookie Draft Mark Blicavs 2015 B&F Winner.
2012 Pick 16 Jackson Thurlow*. Only players worth a grain of salt after that Mason Wood & Brodie Grundy. Our next pick was 77?? Brad Hartman.
In reality we had 1 pick.
2013 Pick 16 Darcy Lang. Who did we miss out on?? Hartung? Dunstan? Acres? Taylor? Gardiner? In Reality the only ones that you'd be a little excited about
are Rory Lobb & Zach Merrett. He did pick up Kolo @41
2014 Pick 10 Nakia Cockatoo. No one other than Isaac Heeney to get excited about. Nice pick up go Gregson @47 though IMO.
2015 First Pick at 59. lets just wait 3 years to make a call. But, we went into Free agency rather than drafting 18 yo's Dangerfield, Henderson, Zac Smith
and Scotty Selwood.

Just so people understand what the last 5 years(since 2011) has produced after our picks and put it in perspective.
Only 1 AA squad player or A grader... that being Lachine Neale IMO.

So please read my rebuttal of sorts and feel free to point out anything that you're not happy with, if i've made any errors(there might be?).
But I think statements like Wells recruiting being mediocre and has not done any amazing recruiting is quite frankly incorrect on many levels.
You can only play the hand you are dealt.
Those names I've put up is why I am advocating he's retention.

Cheers Boys and I hope you enjoy my rant of sorts.

Well argued, but my personal beef is with the contract management and trading side rather than drafting.

I don't think anyone would argue that free agency has changed the whole landscape directly and indirectly by removing the taboos on player movement.

It's a new, more cut-throat game and whoever is pulling the strings now (presumably Wells) seems to be a bit out of their depth.