Universal Love Holding Faith in Stephen Wells and Mackie (a.k.a. "In Wells We Trust")

[Turbocat]

The problem is more so that Sydney had finished top 6 the previous year yet still had guaranteed access to top young talent which yielded the Rising Star. Geelong had finished outside the 8 the year Selwood was drafted. There's something not quite right about the fact that Sydney does continue to add quality young kids to their list like Heeney and Mills despite finishing up top so often, and these are kids they are given exclusive access to via academies.

If you're a premiership club who manages to pluck a first-year champion from a pick in the late teens or twenties, I don't think many will consider that anything other than good recruiting.

Yes I understand the point..and again Father Son and Academy does make it different. They can access talent with no relationship to finishing position. Hawkins may well have been the rising star in that era or a Moore now. Bulldogs have numerous Father Sons recently and not being a winner of the RS is probably less relevant than the talent add which they have had. Ablett did not even get a RS nomination.

For all the moaning on Academy kids for GWS, Mills and Heeney are what they system is trying to develop, non AFL background talent development. ...and you are correct , if a player of their level is developed regularly , and added to sides at the top of the ladder , it will have to be looked at. Restrictions will have to be introduced. Atm id be happy to see Brisbane and GC get as much talent thru thru the academies as possible... but once a side is strong winning club its threat to the equalisation measures of the draft. The two kids GWS added last year are just as threatening to my mind as HeeneyMills but their bank of talent means they have not been instant adds... and this year they again will get two more potential R1 kids. Meanwhile we add P24.

 

[manboob]

For all this talk of a "changing landscape" that everyone keeps trying to tell me about, the Bulldogs have just won the AFL and VFL flags with a strong drafting approach.

You say that... But Suckling, Crameri, Boyd, Hamling and Biggs, all came from other clubs (yeah I know the first two didn't play in the flag).

Wallis, Hunter and Liberatore were Father/Son. That's almost half their starting 18...

And with picks 4,5,6 and 11 they got Bont, Stringer, Macrae and Roberts. Not to mention a lot of picks in the 20s.

It's unrealistic to get draft picks like they did. 4,5,6 is nuts...

 

[GTOA]

There was not 18 teams diluting the talent pool either back then, it was easier for an astute drafter to rummage around and come up with a Lake for pick 70, or a Barlow in the rookie draft.

Sydney stays competitive with their academy, I mean there is something a little unbalanced about a GF finalist team also winning the Rising Star Award, don't you think?

We won a flag in 2007, and Joel Selwood was the Rising Star!

 

[Dogs_r_barking]

You say that... But Suckling, Crameri, Boyd, Hamling and Biggs, all came from other clubs (yeah I know the first two didn't play in the flag).

Wallis, Hunter and Liberatore were Father/Son. That's almost half their starting 18...

And with picks 4,5,6 and 11 they got Bont, Stringer, Macrae and Roberts. Not to mention a lot of picks in the 20s.

It's unrealistic to get draft picks like they did. 4,5,6 is nuts...

I think you are forgetting we got #6# for losing Ward to GWS who was touted as a future captain for our club. Many would rather we had kept Ward, even now.

We lost Harbrow to Gold Coast and burnt that pick, and losing your captain to GWS the way it happened was humiliating. Yeah we got Boyd for him but also lost our first pick, (which netted GWS Marchbank who is now at Carlton).

We traded in Cooney, Higgins, and Jones for those other picks in a year that was paying a premium for traded players and netted some more good kids in the draft. This year we got bugger all for two players who bordered on best 22 in Stevens and Hrovat. Hrovat especially burns as that is who we used for the Lake pick from Hawthorn.

Probably the same reason you did not get a good return for Caddy is that this draft is rumoured to be so deep and traded players are at a low value this year.

 

[Dogs_r_barking]

We won a flag in 2007, and Joel Selwood was the Rising Star!

Yeah, but as it was pointed out further back you didn't finish in the 8 the previous year so you had a high draft pick. Whereas Swans played off in a Prelim the year before.

 

[cynical]

lol. Yet it's been common knowledge for a while that it was McCartney who was the mastermind of our 2007 game plan change.

Again, I do get sick of repeating myself to you, as per the coaches documentary it was noted by more than 1 AFL coach that the senior coach takes a back seat role at training. The assistant's run drills, they devise skills sessions and they work with the players teaching them the game plan that the head coach by and large has devised.

So again, for all the bleetings about players stagnating in recent seasons, of which some have done so, it's a failure of assistant coaching and why it's my biggest question mark at the club. Something I do hope Hocking and Lloyd have forensically reviewed with a fine tooth comb.

the coach overseas it all, stop making excuses

if an assistant isnt getting the job done then its up to the coach to step in and fix it or fire him

 

[you pick one]

the coach overseas it all, stop making excuses

if an assistant isnt getting the job done then its up to the coach to step in and fix it or fire him

Haven't you been listening?Chris Scott 2014 we know what the problem is and we will fix it, 2015 we know what the problem is and we will fix it,2016 we know what the problem is and we will fix it.
In my opinion all the coaches in the world won't fix his big problem,we simply don't have enough players who bring the intensity required to to win a flag at the moment,as a coach you can ask for that,you can banish players to the 2s and hope they get the message but at the end of the day if it's not in their make up it won't happen.
I want some players with for the want of a better word,some s**t in them.Think Chapman Rooke Milburn Scarlett Mooney Kelly,who do we have now?

 

[David the Cat]

Haven't you been listening?Chris Scott 2014 we know what the problem is and we will fix it, 2015 we know what the problem is and we will fix it,2016 we know what the problem is and we will fix it.
In my opinion all the coaches in the world won't fix his big problem,we simply don't have enough players who bring the intensity required to to win a flag at the moment,as a coach you can ask for that,you can banish players to the 2s and hope they get the message but at the end of the day if it's not in their make up it won't happen.
I want some players with for the want of a better word,some s**t in them.Think Chapman Rooke Milburn Scarlett Mooney Kelly,who do we have now?

This! Great post ypo....

 

[Art Vandelay_]

the coach overseas it all, stop making excuses

if an assistant isnt getting the job done then its up to the coach to step in and fix it or fire him

I'd say it's up to the footy department boss in fact, that's Steven Hocking, if people in there aren't pulling their weight it's up to him to recommend change. Not the head coach.

 

[romeohwho]

Haven't you been listening?Chris Scott 2014 we know what the problem is and we will fix it, 2015 we know what the problem is and we will fix it,2016 we know what the problem is and we will fix it.
In my opinion all the coaches in the world won't fix his big problem,we simply don't have enough players who bring the intensity required to to win a flag at the moment,as a coach you can ask for that,you can banish players to the 2s and hope they get the message but at the end of the day if it's not in their make up it won't happen.
I want some players with for the want of a better word,some s**t in them.Think Chapman Rooke Milburn Scarlett Mooney Kelly,who do we have now?

You're overreacting. We are getting most of the cattle in place now. They all looked like they had the 'required intensity' in many high standard games that mattered against good teams this year. The majority of them certainly had it in the first final this year. Then Swans flogged us, so everyone looked like rubbish. Big deal-they were 5 minutes off winning the flag with a far better list than ours. Any other team, we were in that prelim final. We will be fine next year.

 

[Partridge]

And with picks 4,5,6 and 11 they got Bont, Stringer, Macrae and Roberts. Not to mention a lot of picks in the 20s.

It's unrealistic to get draft picks like they did. 4,5,6 is nuts...

Is it though? We won premierships with 7, 7, 8, and 8 (Plus another 7 in Kane Tenace, who was on the list in 2007 and 2009). It's not that different.

 

[darren forssman]

But we don't need to load up on picks if we grabs free agents, as either they are delisted and you get for nothing, or they are unrestricted, and the club they leave get a pick from the AFL, not the destination club.

I am not saying load up on picks. You mentioned how easy it is to get free agents in and I was merely pointing out most decent players are restricted and therefore it goes to a trade scenario where you have to give something up.

What decent UFA have there been? Not being a smarty, I literally have no idea or cannot remember any.

Also, not often valuable players (who knows with Richards) get delisted. BTW, this board would explode if we traded Caddy out then picked up Barlow to cover him.

 

[Art Vandelay_]

Is it though? We won premierships with 7, 7, 8, and 8 (Plus another 7 in Kane Tenace, who was on the list in 2007 and 2009). It's not that different.

What was the time period for both? I'd say our top ten picks would have been far more spread out than their 4, 5, 6 though.

 

[Hamingja]

And those Geelong first round picks were collected over 5 years of not making finals. If you want to rebuild through the draft that is the reality. Might as well load up and have a crack before the inevitable.

I don't agree however with unnecessarily involving a future first for Tuohy, even though I am happy to have him, or giving Caddy away for so little.

But you have to realise the draft is not the option at the moment for the club. 18 teams dilutes the draft, academy players dilute the draft, free agency compensation picks dilute the draft and how do you have any chance at all of beating GWS through the draft? You don't.

There is a small window for a flag for Geelong, admittedly it closed a little further after this year, but it is still there. Have another crack in 2017, maybe 2018, and then when the drop off comes that is when you spend the 5 years in the wilderness to build through the draft.

 

[catempire]

For all this talk of a "changing landscape" that everyone keeps trying to tell me about, the Bulldogs have just won the AFL and VFL flags with a strong drafting approach.

The landscape has changed for successful teams. It's exactly the same for those that spend a chunk of time in the bottom third of the ladder.

 

[Pollywaffle]

still lack a few ingredients to be a flag threat, pace across the entire field,a couple of line breakers on the back line,a dominant ruckman and genuine second tall contesting key forward,and a game plan to bring it all together.

Is that all ? .....

 

[Danger!Selwood]

I agree with you but it could be argued that they also won after one of the biggest trade rolls of the dice ..ever.

Its seems to me that winning a Premiership is a bit like some sort of Jefferson Wheel .. you need a lot of things to line up for you... trade in , advantages like FatherSons , perhaps some moneyball type players but there is little doubt a strong component of the side must have been traditionally drafted kids that a club then developed.

This is spot on, its why i get frustrated by people blaming Well's when there are so many variables involved. You just need to look at 2008- clearly we were the best team in the league and we still didn't win the premiership. You need a good quality list with a spread of talent, a good game plan that will stack up, and then you need a hell of a lot of luck regarding injuries, fitness and form when the whips are cracking.

If a football club didn't need input and expertise from assistant coaches, list mgt team, sports science team etc why would they be there? Its because they all contribute in some way shape or form to a teams success, or lack of.

 

[Biggy_Boy]

You say that... But Suckling, Crameri, Boyd, Hamling and Biggs, all came from other clubs (yeah I know the first two didn't play in the flag).

Wallis, Hunter and Liberatore were Father/Son. That's almost half their starting 18...

And with picks 4,5,6 and 11 they got Bont, Stringer, Macrae and Roberts. Not to mention a lot of picks in the 20s.

It's unrealistic to get draft picks like they did. 4,5,6 is nuts...

Most of those recruits were low-cost, good-value pickups. Hamling and Suckling were FAs, Biggs was pick 37 and Crameri a pick in the 20s. Boyd was the only really high-cost player they recruited, and that still fits within the paradigm of rebuilding using youth, given Boyd was still a very young, highly rated prospect. They didn't trade away an abundance of draft picks to get in talent from other clubs. The core of their side was built through the draft and these players were supplemental, much in the same way that Geelong's list was built primarily through the draft yet had guys like Ottens, Mooney and Harley added to it.

Wish we could have picked up Suckling as a FA and Biggs for a pick in the 30s, by the way.

 

[Pollywaffle]

In my opinion all the coaches in the world won't fix his big problem,we simply don't have enough players who bring the intensity required to to win a flag at the moment,as a coach you can ask for that,you can banish players to the 2s and hope they get the message but at the end of the day if it's not in their make up it won't happen.

Yep. 'Career cruisers' I would call them.
Every team has a few ,but once the ratio gets high enough then a premiership worthy effort is nigh on impossible.
Hawthorn is the only club that seems to have been able to avoid this syndrome. Whether by luck or good management is yet to be proven.

 

[Partridge]

The majority of them certainly had it in the first final this year. Then Swans flogged us, so everyone looked like rubbish. Big deal-they were 5 minutes off winning the flag with a far better list than ours. Any other team, we were in that prelim final. We will be fine next year.

Sorry, what alternative universe did this idea come from? The Swans weren't 5 minutes off winning anything. The Dogs led at three quarter time, and with every minute of the last quarter looked stronger and stronger.

I realise supporters want to rationalise the prelim final defeat, but to claim that the Swans just failed in the last few minutes against the Dogs is fantasy.

 

[Partridge]

In my opinion all the coaches in the world won't fix his big problem,we simply don't have enough players who bring the intensity required to to win a flag at the moment,as a coach you can ask for that,you can banish players to the 2s and hope they get the message but at the end of the day if it's not in their make up it won't happen.

Think that might be the first problem there. No established players get banished to the seconds in the first place. Hard to get the message if it's never sent.

 

[romeohwho]

Sorry, what alternative universe did this idea come from? The Swans weren't 5 minutes off winning anything. The Dogs led at three quarter time, and with every minute of the last quarter looked stronger and stronger.

I realise supporters want to rationalise the prelim final defeat, but to claim that the Swans just failed in the last few minutes against the Dogs is fantasy.

Uhuh. Think you'll find with 7 minutes to go in the GF it was a point the difference.
It was a pretty even contest and none of my many Dogs friends thought it was won till Boyd's late goal. (5 mins to go).So maybe your universe is out of whack?
I am not rationalizing it -Swans have our measure atm. Nobody else does though. Swans would have flogged us in the GF. Nobody else would have. And do you think Swans have a better list?

 

[ManOfClay]

Y
And with picks 4,5,6 and 11 they got Bont, Stringer, Macrae and Roberts. Not to mention a lot of picks in the 20s.

Sorry to intrude but Roberts was in the pre season draft, not the national draft. there's a fair difference there

 

[supahoops]

Is it just me or are others also losing faith in our list Management team?

This 2016 trade period will go down as an unmitigated disaster.

Lets look at the outs from the club

Retired:
Enright : handled the right way where Boris made the decision to retire himself ( has earned that right)

Bartel : The club has basically forced another champion out the door in a very poor manner, that being said at least we didn't trade him to West Coast for Pick 88.

Traded Out:

Kersten - Fremantle : Why are we just letting him go for what is effectively a pick in the late 70's played 17 games in 2016 & up until finals was best 22 let him go into the draft

Vardy - West Coast : Traded away for around pick 75 for further opportunity at AFL will be a loss to the list Good Luck to him.

Smedts - Carlton :

Good deal for Geelong & Billie, just hasn't been able to get his body right and has had a lot of impact injuries which haven't given him a fair crack at AFL footy at Geelong

Caddy - Richmond : (possible at time of post)
This is the one that really Pi$$es me off, why are we allowing a best 22 Contracted player (2yrs left) walk out the door for a rubbish 2nd round pick (24 or 27) and don't give me sh1t about Geelong needing to trade him for Cap space when Enright and Bartel leaving frees up 700k at least.

How is it possible that a guy who has played 95 games of AFL footy and is best 22 can be traded for these picks, yet 2 GWS players who have played less than 10 games between them can be traded for Pick inside 10 (Marchbank & Pickett )

Had a chance to trade Caddy for Delideo who wanted to come to the club but couldn't or wouldn't find a way to make it happen.In past 5 days List Management team and the Captain of the club have stated that Caddy will be at Geelong in 2017 although now we hear that the club will let him leave.


If the trade does go through we need to be getting from Richmond what ever picks they get from GWS for Deledio or they keep Caddy to his contract.

Traded In :

Zac Touhy - Carlton

A good player coming into the club with what we need....speed off half back but why the hell did we trade a future 1st and Billie Smedts for him? He was out of contract ffs.

Yes we got back a future 2nd round in return but it feels like club has just been bent over again , should have offered pick 38 or got Zac in the draft.

We have now traded out of the 1st round of the past 3 drafts - Any chance we might want to bring some more quality Youth on to the list.



After this period do we still trust Wells and his team to try and regenerate the list while still competing for finals and Premierships and do we need to take a more Hard- Line approach like other clubs towards contracted players wanting to leave the club.

The Geelong Football Club is not a Charity and although we as a club have facilitated many deals to send players where they want to go (see King,SJ, Christensen, Jansen, Walker) and pay fair price for players coming to the club (see Danger, Henderson etc) it feels like when we let players go we get screwed in terms of the draft


Any comments would be much appreciated

A bit of egg on face here. The Caddy-Parfitt swap looks an absolute master stroke. I don't particularly subscribe to the doom and gloom theory. Here is my 18 with no added trades/draft picks of a 2022 team with Selwood/Hawkins, both durable to date, as our two oldest players at 34.

Thurlow 28 Gardner 25 ZGuthrie 24
Blicavs 31 Kolodjashnij 27 CGuthrie 30
Parsons 25 Duncan 31 Cockatoo 26
Menzel 31 Henderson 33 Motlop 33
McCarthy 30 Hawkins 34 Lang 27
Stanley 32 Parfitt 24 Dangerfield 32

That gives us 5 years where we should be super competitive and come up with another half dozen recruits to transition to. And who knows how the likes of Buzza, Cunico, Gregson, Jones, Narkle, Ratugolea and Simpson - all under 28, will have come on by then.

 

[SJ]

A bit of egg on face here. The Caddy-Parfitt swap looks an absolute master stroke. I don't particularly subscribe to the doom and gloom theory. Here is my 18 with no added trades/draft picks of a 2022 team with Selwood/Hawkins, both durable to date, as our two oldest players at 34.

Thurlow 28 Gardner 25 ZGuthrie 24
Blicavs 31 Kolodjashnij 27 CGuthrie 30
Parsons 25 Duncan 31 Cockatoo 26
Menzel 31 Henderson 33 Motlop 33
McCarthy 30 Hawkins 34 Lang 27
Stanley 32 Parfitt 24 Dangerfield 32

That gives us 5 years where we should be super competitive and come up with another half dozen recruits to transition to. And who knows how the likes of Buzza, Cunico, Gregson, Jones, Narkle, Ratugolea and Simpson - all under 28, will have come on by then.

I'll put money on Henderson and Hawkins not being there at 33 and 34. Not to mention Blicavs, Motlop, Stanley and maybe even Dangerfield.

History tells us there is no point to make teams like this really.