List Mgmt. Lyon and the Cubs

theGav56

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Faaaaaar too generous imo so here are some quick thoughts.

A Pearce: Didn't get a game until necessity dictated through injury. Who knows what might have happened if that wasn't the case.

Ryan: Mature ager playing the same game he did at VFL, doing well and improving though.

Cerra: Way too early to claim Lyon developed him. What he has achieved so far is on him.

Brayshaw: See Cerra.

Cox: Had a number of above average games and now one good game. He is still visibly not confident in his own goal kicking.

Taberner: I would love hear what Tabs has to say about Lyon personally ;).

Darcy: See Cerra and Brayshaw.

Neale, Blakely and Langdon: Big tick of approval, especially with Langdon who is exceeding all expectations except for perhaps Allikat's. Well done.

Giro, Banfield and Crowden: May not even make it but like you said at least they're getting a go. Certainly doesn't go any way toward proving (or disproving) Lyon's ability to develop players.

Long story short: let's see if the rebuild actually succeeds before lauding the coaches ability to perform one. Heaps of water to go under the bridge yet.
You might find that Cerra, Brayshaw and Darcy have already made positive statements about their development under Lyon. Did you listen to the after game interview with Cerra? I can't link you to it, but basically praised Lyon for the challenges he was being given by playing different roles, and it was a clear reference to being asked to step up at HBF during that game. The feedback from players about Lyon is by and large very positive. It is also measurable by the retention rate of our players.

You may need to explain how young players playing well doesn't support the idea that they are being well developed. Seems an unusual proposition and definitely counter-intuitive. Compare for example with other teams playing a similar number of young fellas. Saints, Brisbane, Carlton come to mind. A key factor in Lyon's youth development has been the balance of old heads in the team, and the other has been the use of Peel as a development platform. Both have been well utilised.
 

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_007_

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You might find that Cerra, Brayshaw and Darcy have already made positive statements about their development under Lyon. Did you listen to the after game interview with Cerra? I can't link you to it, but basically praised Lyon for the challenges he was being given by playing different roles, and it was a clear reference to being asked to step up at HBF during that game. The feedback from players about Lyon is by and large very positive. It is also measurable by the retention rate of our players.

You may need to explain how young players playing well doesn't support the idea that they are being well developed. Seems an unusual proposition. Compare for example with other teams playing a similar number of young fellas. Saints, Brisbane, Carlton come to mind. A key factor in Lyon's youth development has been the balance of old heads in the team, and the other has been the use of Peel as a development platform. Both have been well utilised.
I did hear the interview and it was one cliche to the next without a word of substance to it imo. He batted the questions away trying to give 'the right' answers but given he is so young and with limited media training/exposure, it's about the best he can do in that situation.

Young players playing well 12 games into their first year indicates to me that the 12-15ish years of football in hand prior to their debut year was time well spent. A coach has barely had enough time to learn their names let alone sculpt their footballing ability by then. At that early stage, they're playing good because they are good, not because Lyon (or any coach for that matter) is making it so.
 

Freeeoo

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Faaaaaar too generous imo so here are some quick thoughts.

A Pearce: Didn't get a game until necessity dictated through injury. Who knows what might have happened if that wasn't the case.

Ryan: Mature ager playing the same game he did at VFL, doing well and improving though.

Cerra: Way too early to claim Lyon developed him. What he has achieved so far is on him.

Brayshaw: See Cerra.

Cox: Had a number of above average games and now one good game. He is still visibly not confident in his own goal kicking.

Taberner: I would love hear what Tabs has to say about Lyon personally ;).

Darcy: See Cerra and Brayshaw.

Neale, Blakely and Langdon: Big tick of approval, especially with Langdon who is exceeding all expectations except for perhaps Allikat's. Well done.

Giro, Banfield and Crowden: May not even make it but like you said at least they're getting a go. Certainly doesn't go any way toward proving (or disproving) Lyon's ability to develop players.

Long story short: let's see if the rebuild actually succeeds before lauding the coaches ability to perform one. Heaps of water to go under the bridge yet.
I don't think many people disagree with the wait and see approach except the "sack Lyon now!" brigade.
 

poshman

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I did hear the interview and it was one cliche to the next without a word of substance to it imo. He batted the questions away trying to give 'the right' answers but given he is so young and with limited media training/exposure, it's about the best he can do in that situation.

Young players playing well 12 games into their first year indicates to me that the 12-15ish years of football in hand prior to their debut year was time well spent. A coach has barely had enough time to learn their names let alone sculpt their footballing ability by then. At that early stage, they're playing good because they are good, not because Lyon (or any coach for that matter) is making it so.
Sounds a little like - if they are doing well it is not because of Lyon - if they aren't doing well it is because of Lyon...

To suggest that after 8 months in a full time system the coach and coaching department wouldn't know his name is more than ridiculous. If they were played out of position would that help them play well? If they were unclear on the game plan would that not hinder them also. Brayshaw has said that each week he understands the game plan more clearly and that is helping him immensely. Do you think that Sean Darcy has not developed due to coaches and going against Sandi in training every week for 30 months - I suppose it is only the last two months or so that Sandi or Lyon learnt his name. :rolleyes:

I was positive on this prior to our win on the weekend. Development is noticeable. Looking at the list below if you can't admit that there is growth you are suffering from cognitive bias and or an extreme lack of perspective.

Blakeley
Langdon
Darcy Tucker (a little behind these two but coming on)

Hamling - Already a gun imo (on this list due to games played since with Freo vs prior)
Ryan - Reliable - strong - pacey and has a gun right boot.
Pearce - Leadership group and played less than 25 games. There aren't too many CHB I would trade him for and he will only improve.

Apeness - I have been very happy with his output the last couple of games. If he can play through the rest of the season we will have at least a B grader long term.
McCarthy - leading goal kicker last year and will be a gun 3rd tall who can deliver the ball on a dime to leading forwards. Once tabs and Cox are playing with him I think he will develop into a consistent 35-45 per year goal kicker.

Tabs - I have heard Tabs speak about Lyon in private settings and he is very positive and enthusiastic. Rookie listed player to a bonafide KPF who we are all wanting back asap... if that is not development then I don't know what is!

Logue - Body shape has improved on last year. towards the end of last year he had a couple of games that suggested he would be a good contributor and was a good pick. Injuries have robbed him this year but I am still very pleased we have him and think he will be a B+ player long term. Could be more if his footy smarts catch up with his athleticism but who knows.

Sean Darcy - He will play after the bye - as good a young ruck as there is going around. Speaks clearly about how much he is learning from coaches, sandi, strength and conditioning and dieticians. An absolute competitive animal who when paired with apeness will cause some worry. He reminds me of two of Ports early ruckmen - both guns. Primus and Lade was it?

Brennan Cox - 19 - can mark - knows how to play and has seemingly improved his kicking. Not many 19 year olds have played a game like he did on the weekend and he will still add, strength, fitness, speed and agility to his game.

** How good is the 2016 draft shaping! Logue - Darcy - Cox and Ryan. :eek::eek::eek:

Brayshaw - Cerra - I think it is clear both can play and will at least be long term B graders. I think they will be at least long term A- to A graders personally.
Dixon - Personally think he has shown a lot and if we can squeeze a couple of games into him late it will be nice.
Crowden - North - Meek - Jones and Swita.

I think Banfield has been a find and Giro played a very good game on the weekend.

Take this years picks out and there is a fair bit there to mark Lyon and the coaches on that right now is positive.
 

_007_

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Sounds a little like - if they are doing well it is not because of Lyon - if they aren't doing well it is because of Lyon...

To suggest that after 8 months in a full time system the coach and coaching department wouldn't know his name is more than ridiculous. If they were played out of position would that help them play well? If they were unclear on the game plan would that not hinder them also. Brayshaw has said that each week he understands the game plan more clearly and that is helping him immensely. Do you think that Sean Darcy has not developed due to coaches and going against Sandi in training every week for 30 months - I suppose it is only the last two months or so that Sandi or Lyon learnt his name. :rolleyes:

I was positive on this prior to our win on the weekend. Development is noticeable. Looking at the list below if you can't admit that there is growth you are suffering from cognitive bias and or an extreme lack of perspective.

Blakeley
Langdon
Darcy Tucker (a little behind these two but coming on)
I'll get to the rest of your post (as I read it), but first I have to address these two paragraphs. I'd have thought it is pretty bloody obvious a coach not knowing a players name is ridiculous. One might even deduce from the sheer ridiculousness of the comment that I was being sarcastic. I suppose not.

My thoughts are that no coach can significantly influence the output of any player as early in their career as Cerra and Brayshaw are, there just hasn't been enough time for that to occur imo. I put Darcy in the same boat as these two because he performed immediately when he came in, in his first year. This suggests to me that there was little influence from the club, he was already good.

I did explicitly acknowledge the good development of Langdon and Blakely. I look forward to reading your apology on that one lol.

Here is a final thought: If some young players are playing good and that is a result of Lyon's influence, as Gav stated, then why aren't ALL young players playing to that same level (relative to their ability ofcourse)? They're all getting the same good coaching but the result is different. I reckon it is because they're too early into their career to be significantly influenced either way by the coach.
 

theGav56

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I did hear the interview and it was one cliche to the next without a word of substance to it imo. He batted the questions away trying to give 'the right' answers but given he is so young and with limited media training/exposure, it's about the best he can do in that situation.

Young players playing well 12 games into their first year indicates to me that the 12-15ish years of football in hand prior to their debut year was time well spent. A coach has barely had enough time to learn their names let alone sculpt their footballing ability by then. At that early stage, they're playing good because they are good, not because Lyon (or any coach for that matter) is making it so.
I don't want to pretend that Lyon has created these guys out of a handful of mud or anything, and for sure they have come here based on what they have already shown. For most of them the best coaching is simply not stuffing them up. But reality is many coaches do stuff things up. Do you remember Polak? Palmer?

Lyon has copped flack on here for the two key things that I have outlined; a balance of new players and old heads and the use of the wafl as a training ground. Cerra, for example, doesn't accidentally get to play off a half back flank with the support of guys like Wilson and Hamling. That has been strategised to give him the best chance of succeeding. That kind of decision making by the coach is a critical element of player development. It involves recognising and enhancing a players strengths, in Cerra's case, reading the play, decision making and disposal. It involves setting the right challenge for a player at the right time. I am a huge admirer of how D Pearce has been used at wafl and afl level to mentor player development.

Nyhuis just played a significantly improved game from his previous outings. Cox just made us all go "wow", in large part due to the faith and development of the coach and skills development.
 
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FreoMonocle

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[QUOTE="Nodgey, post: 56191935, member: 46712"Another thing. I vehemently disagree with the notion that you only replace a coach if there's a better one available. IMHO if you decide your current coach isn't working out, then they simply have to go. Regardless of who's available.[/QUOTE]

You're better off if you are out of the frying pan and into the fire? Can't say that I can agree there. If you replace with a worse coach, how are you better off and why do you think it's worth going even further backwards?
 

theGav56

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I'll get to the rest of your post (as I read it), but first I have to address these two paragraphs. I'd have thought it is pretty bloody obvious a coach not knowing a players name is ridiculous. One might even deduce from the sheer ridiculousness of the comment that I was being sarcastic. I suppose not.

My thoughts are that no coach can significantly influence the output of any player as early in their career as Cerra and Brayshaw are, there just hasn't been enough time for that to occur imo. I put Darcy in the same boat as these two because he performed immediately when he came in, in his first year. This suggests to me that there was little influence from the club, he was already good.

I did explicitly acknowledge the good development of Langdon and Blakely. I look forward to reading your apology on that one lol.

Here is a final thought: If some young players are playing good and that is a result of Lyon's influence, as Gav stated, then why aren't ALL young players playing to that same level (relative to their ability ofcourse)? They're all getting the same good coaching but the result is different. I reckon it is because they're too early into their career to be significantly influenced either way by the coach.
You have a bit of the boy who cried wold syndrome here. That is another ridiculous statement. Any personal development is about getting people to perform to their optimum level. They are all works in progress.

Again, history shows that players who have been coached by Lyon rate him highly and give him credit for their development. Your or my opinion lives in the shadows of that kind of evidence.
 

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FreoMonocle

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[QUOTE="_007_, post: 56201000, member: 15441] My thoughts are that no coach can significantly influence the output of any player as early in their career as Cerra and Brayshaw are, there just hasn't been enough time for that to occur imo.[/QUOTE]

Being semi tongue in cheek, did Cerra get 30 disposals in his beginning games?

Position played and a range of factors. But thats a mind-boggling step up yesterday.
 

_007_

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You have a bit of the boy who cried wold syndrome here. That is another ridiculous statement. Any personal development is about getting people to perform to their optimum level. They are all works in progress.

Again, history shows that players who have been coached by Lyon rate him highly and give him credit for their development. Your or my opinion lives in the shadows of that kind of evidence.
I just don't put as much weight into past players' opinion on former coaches as you seem to. Don't really know what else you would expect people who are still on good terms with Lyon to say? Especially so for current players. Oh well.
 

poshman

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I'll get to the rest of your post (as I read it), but first I have to address these two paragraphs. I'd have thought it is pretty bloody obvious a coach not knowing a players name is ridiculous. One might even deduce from the sheer ridiculousness of the comment that I was being sarcastic. I suppose not.

My thoughts are that no coach can significantly influence the output of any player as early in their career as Cerra and Brayshaw are, there just hasn't been enough time for that to occur imo. I put Darcy in the same boat as these two because he performed immediately when he came in, in his first year. This suggests to me that there was little influence from the club, he was already good.

I did explicitly acknowledge the good development of Langdon and Blakely. I look forward to reading your apology on that one lol.

Here is a final thought: If some young players are playing good and that is a result of Lyon's influence, as Gav stated, then why aren't ALL young players playing to that same level (relative to their ability ofcourse)? They're all getting the same good coaching but the result is different. I reckon it is because they're too early into their career to be significantly influenced either way by the coach.
You are still writing in the same dismissive tone... lol..

Sean Darcy improved as the year went on and when I’ve watched him at training being coached by all the coaching team and Sandi he definitely takes feedback on and improves. In fact most learning curves would suggest that the biggest influence coaching has would be in conjunction with games played - as in the most improvement would be made in the first 50 games. Then improvement is made on top of that foundation with the couple of preseasons added in. Once a boy player is past 100 games it is arguable that improvement comes in much smaller increments. We may see them more from game 50 or 100 on but that is them being put together in consistent performances and doesn’t reflect the non linear trajectory of capability and capacity / skills learning.

Two examples -

I played under age representative level sport x2 for Australia. In both when I got to national level I learnt more in five training sessions than I had in the the local, state league, and state rep levels. The details were so far above anything I had previously experienced. I would be very surprised if it wasn’t similar going from U18 to full time professional.

Cox - Brayshaw and Cerra have all improved from their first five games. I take it in your opinion non of this is to do with the coaches?
 

SHill Shall

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But surely you recognise our own important outs plus the inexperience and youth of the Freo team. Personally I enjoyed every minute of watching the youngsters ply their trade and I'm still buzzing over the win.


That’s probably because you’re an actual fan. Or the other term often used interchangeably for fan - supporter!!
 

_007_

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You are still writing in the same dismissive tone... lol..

Sean Darcy improved as the year went on and when I’ve watched him at training being coached by all the coaching team and Sandi he definitely takes feedback on and improves. In fact most learning curves would suggest that the biggest influence coaching has would be in conjunction with games played - as in the most improvement would be made in the first 50 games. Then improvement is made on top of that foundation with the couple of preseasons added in. Once a boy player is past 100 games it is arguable that improvement comes in much smaller increments. We may see them more from game 50 or 100 on but that is them being put together in consistent performances and doesn’t reflect the non linear trajectory of capability and capacity / skills learning.

Two examples -

I played under age representative level sport x2 for Australia. In both when I got to national level I learnt more in five training sessions than I had in the the local, state league, and state rep levels. The details were so far above anything I had previously experienced. I would be very surprised if it wasn’t similar going from U18 to full time professional.

Cox - Brayshaw and Cerra have all improved from their first five games. I take it in your opinion non of this is to do with the coaches?
poshman. Mate. Buddy. You said I must be a fool for not seeing the improvement in 2 guys that I had only moments earlier praised Lyon and the club for developing well. Why should I take you seriously after that let alone be anything but dismissive? I was remarkably polite if you ask me :thumbsu:

Anyway apology accepted.
 

_007_

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You are still writing in the same dismissive tone... lol..

Sean Darcy improved as the year went on and when I’ve watched him at training being coached by all the coaching team and Sandi he definitely takes feedback on and improves. In fact most learning curves would suggest that the biggest influence coaching has would be in conjunction with games played - as in the most improvement would be made in the first 50 games. Then improvement is made on top of that foundation with the couple of preseasons added in. Once a boy player is past 100 games it is arguable that improvement comes in much smaller increments. We may see them more from game 50 or 100 on but that is them being put together in consistent performances and doesn’t reflect the non linear trajectory of capability and capacity / skills learning.

Two examples -

I played under age representative level sport x2 for Australia. In both when I got to national level I learnt more in five training sessions than I had in the the local, state league, and state rep levels. The details were so far above anything I had previously experienced. I would be very surprised if it wasn’t similar going from U18 to full time professional.

Cox - Brayshaw and Cerra have all improved from their first five games. I take it in your opinion non of this is to do with the coaches?
Though I did find your personal experience with elite sport quite insightful to be honest so thanks for that.
 

theGav56

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I just don't put as much weight into past players' opinion on former coaches as you seem to. Don't really know what else you would expect people who are still on good terms with Lyon to say? Especially so for current players. Oh well.
lol. What an amazing confession. For me personally the opinion of a man like Pavlich, absolutely chock full of integrity and insight, who has played under multiple players, just zooms past any individual on the entire bigfooty platform in terms "weight of opinion". He has commented explicitly about other coaches as well. Add numerous Saints players who have lived their careers at the very pointiest end of elite sport, and have zero reason to not speak clearly about their opinion.
 

Arcassius

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Cox for what it's worth has been working with Guerra and Hale one-on-one to improve his skills. It was mentioned in an article late last year, and again by Ross - "Brennan Cox, there's been good signs but he put it together for longer today, so Brent Guerra is working really hard with him individually - as is David Hale - and that hard work and increased workrate is starting to pay off, so it's pleasing," said the coach of the second-year tall. Cox also mentioned that he was doing goal kicking practice after-hours.


Cerra mentioned that they were being given lots of feedback, and referred to the Pies game as an example. Someone else mentioned that Ross bee-lined for Cerra at quarter time in the Crows game and had a direct chat with him.


We can also see that the kids are being given a chance to play, and even if they have a bad game are being backed in (unless they have a few bad games, and then they're dropped to WAFL to find form like anyone else - aka integrity in selection).


We're also ensuring that there's a balance in senior players present in the games to provide in-game guidance and coaching. See Mundy telling Matera where to stand at a centre bounce. See the senior players directing traffic during games. See the fact that there is one tyro and generally 2 seniors in at every centre bounce (and sometimes two tyros if you count Banfield's off-the-deep-end initiation). We're ensuring that there is structure in the learning, and not playing kids for the sake of playing kids which is more likely to set back their development.


So in all of those cases there is clear evidence of -
  • identifying a skills gap and assigning resources to it
  • giving feedback to players constantly
  • giving opportunities to apply the learning and develop
  • providing experience to guide them at all times

Not sure what else Ross and the assistant coaches could be doing to better develop players.
 

theGav56

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Though I did find your personal experience with elite sport quite insightful to be honest so thanks for that.
Amazing. Some random poster (love your work poshman) with a limited experience in a totally different sport is "quite insightful" but Pavlich isn't? Amusing.
 

_007_

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lol. What an amazing confession. For me personally the opinion of a man like Pavlich, absolutely chock full of integrity and insight, who has played under multiple players, just zooms past any individual on the entire bigfooty platform in terms "weight of opinion". He has commented explicitly about other coaches as well. Add numerous Saints players who have lived their careers at the very pointiest end of elite sport, and have zero reason to not speak clearly about their opinion.
Amazing. Some random poster (love your work poshman) with a limited experience in a totally different sport is insightful but Pavlich isn't? Amusing.
It's really quite obvious why a Fremantle champion wouldn't criticise the current head coach of the club Gav.
 

_007_

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There is a significantly longer list of players than Pavlich.
It's less obvious why champions of a coaches former club continue to speak highly of him though ;)
Let's look at this from another angle. Pavlich has very little respect for Harvey's coaching. The worst he ever said was his messaging was poor though. Why?

Biting the hand that feeds you is just not smart and the players know that. Being a bitter peanut really limits your options.

That is why I don't accept their words as gospel.
 

poshman

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I did hear the interview and it was one cliche to the next without a word of substance to it imo. He batted the questions away trying to give 'the right' answers but given he is so young and with limited media training/exposure, it's about the best he can do in that situation.

Young players playing well 12 games into their first year indicates to me that the 12-15ish years of football in hand prior to their debut year was time well spent. A coach has barely had enough time to learn their names let alone sculpt their footballing ability by then. At that early stage, they're playing good because they are good, not because Lyon (or any coach for that matter) is making it so.

This is the one I quoted mate - you said nothing about Blakely - Langdon or Tucker. Did I miss it in another post? If so I apologise.

I also didn’t say you were a fool but that there was a cognitive bias (you want Lyon to be crap at development so everything we see indicates as such - for example. Not that you do) or lack of perspective.

Appreciate your thoughts. My experience in sport and in business is that skills - capacity etc are greatly influenced early on. After that it is consistent application with feedback that wins the day. Either way - I think Ross is doing very well and the list of players I provided I think points to that. :)
 

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