List Mgmt. Lyon and the Cubs

Freomania

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I think one thing we forget is that we are not like all other teams bar the Eagles in that our younger players will take longer to get adjusted to AFL because of the travel factor. Once our younger players get used to jumping on a bird every second week I think you will see more consistency from them.
 

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Sweetback

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I think one thing we forget is that we are not like all other teams bar the Eagles in that our younger players will take longer to get adjusted to AFL because of the travel factor. Once our younger players get used to jumping on a bird every second week I think you will see more consistency from them.
Ross alluded to this earlier in the year, but one thing for young players to get professional about is not to treat trips over east as holidays, or opportunities to catch up with old mates or family, because all those interactions add up to deplete them of energy and focus.
 

Halfbaked

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In fairness to Lyon he hasn't really needed to develop youngsters until now. So it probably is premature to say with certainty that he can't develop youth. I accept the parlous state of the Saints list when he left, and that we fell of a cliff, but one can't argue with his winning % when his team is thereabouts.

Another thing. I vehemently disagree with the notion that you only replace a coach if there's a better one available. IMHO if you decide your current coach isn't working out, then they simply have to go. Regardless of who's available.
Sorry, while I kind of agree about replacing a coach that is not performing, I can also remember Drum and CC . I never want to go back to that s**t.
Look at St Kilda who had to replace Lyon and have got two really s**t coaches.
I'm not sure that Lyon can get us contending again, but I'm scared of what we might end up with.
Very happy to let Ross have another year or two before we roll the dice again , unless another top coach pops up.
 

Nodgey

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Hey I agree. I’m happy to keep Ross for another year. And if next year goes well, then honour the remaining year.

I was only pointing out that it’s folly to keep an underperforming or inadequate coach purely because there doesn’t appear to be any better options.
 

dominguez

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Sorry, while I kind of agree about replacing a coach that is not performing, I can also remember Drum and CC . I never want to go back to that s**t.
Look at St Kilda who had to replace Lyon and have got two really s**t coaches.
I'm not sure that Lyon can get us contending again, but I'm scared of what we might end up with.
Very happy to let Ross have another year or two before we roll the dice again , unless another top coach pops up.


I agree.

Are there people here who think Ross isn't one of the better coaches in the game? I get the impression that the people who aren't fond of Ross have an issue with his defensive style and acerbic way of speaking more than his coaching ability.
 

manpurple

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Finding replacement coaches has to be one of the hardest gigs going.

1 the pool of talent is very limited
2 the AFL accreditation level 4 stuff has limited graduates of which you can say that success has been patchy
3 the best coaches have been mentored to success but that two has been largely hit and miss (talk to Carlton and West Coast)
4 availability is never convenient as teams rely on mass changes to provide options
5 there is a big jump between assistant and senior coaching positions with most being fails.
6 invariably new coaches are there to rebuild which is the hardest part of the job

IMHO dropping a proven coach without a plan for a replacement is just nuts.
In hindsight, whilst the club was lambasted for the way we recruited Lyon, it is probably the best way to be certain of a quality outcome.

When I look at the exisiting senior coaches there are two that would be worth targeting Clarkson or Horse.
Don’t think you could get Horse under any circumstances and even if Clarkson is jumpy all indications are that Melbourne is where he wants to stay.

In conclusion there is nobody who both could and would do the job better at Freo than Lyon. So let’s not get all hot and bothered about changing a coach who is getting better results 2 years into a rebuild than Carlton, Gold Coast, st Kilda and Brisbane all of whom have been rebuilding for longer.


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app
 

kingswood71

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raffrox

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Pretty much what has happened over the last few weeks is what people have been calling for for a fair while.

I don't understand the 'I told you so' tone. If anything the 'I told you so' should be from those that have been calling for a true commitment to the rebuild for a fair amount of time.

I'm very happy with who Ross played last game and if it's maintained and the youngsters are backed in and encouraged then I'm all for it. It still took too long imo and doesn't excuse the poor planning that got us here.

How Cerra was used was a great move and Cox has proven me wrong as far as my belief that he could make it as a forward.
 

scon

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Good article here referencing Neale: "Fremantle’s thrilling three-point win against Adelaide was set up in part by senior coach Ross Lyon having faith in the talented young players at his disposal, according to Lachie Neale".
http://www.fremantlefc.com.au/news/2018-06-12/neale-praises-lyons-great-move
He's lying.
The club made him say it.

I'm not sure that Lyon can get us contending again
2016 the club made a major miscalculation in spades.

I've no doubt Lyon will have us thereabouts within 3.
 

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Paracleet

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We're projecting pretty good. In the end though when we win our first premiership it should be Scott Clayton that presents the cup to Fyfey (Sorry Pav).
 

PurpleEyes

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Just an interesting little stat to show the extent of the current Freo rebuild.

Over a quarter of Freo's total games played in 2018 have come from their most recent 2017 recruits.
2017: 69 games 26.1% 8 players
Add the 2016 recruits and you have 45%.
2016: 50 games 18.9% 7 players
For Freo to have won 5 of 12 games with that amount of new players is quite impressive.

In comparison, the Slime's stats are;
2017: 10 games 4.1% 4 players
2016: 25 games 10.3% 3 players
(the Slime's most represented draft/recruiting years are currently 2010 43 games 17.8% and 2013 31 games 12.8%.)
 

Belnakor

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Just an interesting little stat to show the extent of the current Freo rebuild.

Over a quarter of Freo's total games played in 2018 have come from their most recent 2017 recruits.
2017: 69 games 26.1% 8 players
Add the 2016 recruits and you have 45%.
2016: 50 games 18.9% 7 players
For Freo to have won 5 of 12 games with that amount of new players is quite impressive.

In comparison, the Slime's stats are;
2017: 10 games 4.1% 4 players
2016: 25 games 10.3% 3 players
(the Slime's most represented draft/recruiting years are currently 2010 43 games 17.8% and 2013 31 games 12.8%.)
We've basically played the youngest team every round bar 1 or 2 when we played the Bulldogs.

The slime have been absolutely kissed on the dick injury wise this year. They have basically one injury for the best 22 (darling) and he only just went down.
 

mightymouse75

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It is refreshing to know how young the side is. Couple wins in a row. Hope we beat caltank on the weekend.
 

go_the_dockers

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In fairness to Lyon he hasn't really needed to develop youngsters until now. So it probably is premature to say with certainty that he can't develop youth. I accept the parlous state of the Saints list when he left, and that we fell of a cliff, but one can't argue with his winning % when his team is thereabouts.

Another thing. I vehemently disagree with the notion that you only replace a coach if there's a better one available. IMHO if you decide your current coach isn't working out, then they simply have to go. Regardless of who's available.

The criticism of Lyon comes around him playing role players, when young better players are playing in the 2nd.

Tom Lynch at St Kilda, Lauchie Neale starting as a sub in the GF etc etc.

He is very loyal to established players, perhaps to loyal.

I think we would have benefited by resting a few players during the season between 2013 and 2015, which would have given a few more players in the 2nds a shot and would also have kept our best 22 fresh.
 

Nodgey

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I agree. IIRC players such as Weller, Langdon, Blakely and Taberner (even Grey) were starring/doing well for Peel but couldn't break into the AFL side. I also felt Darcy earned games earlier, but only came in when Sandi was injured. I understand we were dominating in that period, but I still feel some younger players deserved a crack. Just speculation obviously, but if those blokes could have possibly got to 50+ games a lot quicker then maybe just maybe we wouldn't have fallen into the hole we found/find ourselves in.
 

Rion

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The criticism of Lyon comes around him playing role players, when young better players are playing in the 2nd.

Tom Lynch at St Kilda, Lauchie Neale starting as a sub in the GF etc etc.

He is very loyal to established players, perhaps to loyal.

I think we would have benefited by resting a few players during the season between 2013 and 2015, which would have given a few more players in the 2nds a shot and would also have kept our best 22 fresh.
Hopefully the one thing Ross learns from this whole rebuild thing is that he has to trust youngsters a bit more (and keep 3-4 rotating through) even when we are contending. He sort of escaped the negative consequences of it at St Kilda by bailing out before they fell off the cliff but he's definitely felt it here.
 

FreoMonocle

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If we had a few trophy's in the cabinet, we might have ended up with a different narrative, but I think it reasonable under the circumstances that we attempted to put the best on the park each week to try and get a trophy.

But in saying that, I don't think we had much yoof laying around that was useful to bring into the 22. We were playing the better yoof (neale, sheridan, sutcliffe), the occasional crozier appearance. Simpson was given a taste, Tabs was getting games - but he was not AFL Quality at that point, APearce was getting played (up until he was broken), Ape was given the occasional shot at it.

A big missing piece in the "don't play da yoof" narrative was a young mora, pitt (their 3rd and 2nd year when Ross arrived), Simpson because he buggered off, then Apeness with injury keeping him off the park. You'd expect the first rounders to be more likely to squeeze themselves into a side earlier but they weren't available with the exception of Sheridan (who got games). These cats would have taken the average age profile of the list down a bit.


Some of the younguns were given a crack at AFL and then sent back to Peel for development on areas of weakness. Tabs couldn't take a contested mark to save his life and as insurance for any team, some ruck work from the talls is handy. Blakely, there was no problem with him getting loads of the pill, but the point was emphasised that it's only so useful if your opposite number is also getting a load of the pill, your better off getting a load of it but being better defensively and denying your opponent.
 

PurpleEyes

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We've basically played the youngest team every round bar 1 or 2 when we played the Bulldogs.

The slime have been absolutely kissed on the dick injury wise this year. They have basically one injury for the best 22 (darling) and he only just went down.
In summary, this post is to show that my data suggests Freo, given their fixture so far, have performed well and even consistently in 2018.
It also shows that the Slime have had a relatively easy fixture so far in 2018 (in comparison to Freo).
(NB: with respect to my Freo bias and my Slime hatred, I still concede the Slime are playing very good football)

Each year, I do an exercise for at least Freo and the Slime where I look at their fixtures and I rate the difficulty of each game.
I calculate the difficulty to have a rating of 1 to 36. 1 is the easiest rated game to win and 36 would be the hardest game to win.
The rating is calculated by simply using the Home & Away ladder position (inversed) to give a 1 to 18 rating. That number is multiplied by 2 for Away from home games. So for example, playing Adelaide (finished top of 2017 Home & Away ladder inversed = 18) Away (x2) would have a difficulty rating of 36 (hardest). Whereas, playing Brisbane Lions (18th on the ladder inversed = 1) at home (so x1) would be rated as 1 (easiest).

This difficulty rating seems to work well for Freo and the Slime where there is an obvious home ground advantage and away game disadvantage.
(NB: If Freo or West Coast play at Perth Stadium, even if the AFL considers it an Away game, for my exercise, it is treated as a Home game and NOT multiplied by 2)

So, at the start of the season, using the 2017 Home and Away ladder positions (after Round 23), Freo had a total difficulty rating (sum of all 22 games calculated difficulties) for the 2018 season fixtures of 318. Strangely, the Slime's was less with 306 (so much for the AFL fixture equalisation policies).
(NB: If I do not factor in the Away penalty of x2, then it would be Freo 231 and the Slime 235).

But now we get to the stuff I really want to highlight.
Now, as at the completion of Round 12 and now using the current 2018 Home & Away ladder to calculate the difficulty ratings (versus previously using the end of round 23 2017 ladder), we find that the Slime's total rating for the season would be 288. Freo's would be 319.
If we look further at the difficulty of each team's ratings so far played in Round1 to Round12, the Slime's total (for 11 games) is 120 (or an average of 10.9 per game) while Freo's (for 12 games) is 192 (average of 16 per game).
Furthermore, Freo have so far won 5 games with difficulty ratings ranging from 3 to 9 (average of 5.6). The 7 losses have had difficulty ratings of 12 to 34 (average of 24.3). My point here is Freo are winning the games they should and losing the games we should expect to lose.
Meanwhile, the Slime have so far won 10 games with difficulty ratings ranging from 3 to 20 (average of 10.4). Their only loss was to Sydney rated 16.
Freo have actually had 4 games with difficulty ratings greater (22, 26, 32 & 34) than the Slimes most difficult rated game so far (being 20, the Round 8 game vs GWS ... who were missing Greene, Deledio & Patton).

It will be interesting to see what the rest of the 2018 season brings ... the Slime's remaining games have an average difficulty rating of 15.3 and Freo 12.7.
 

Belnakor

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It will be interesting to see what the rest of the 2018 season brings ... the Slime's remaining games have an average difficulty rating of 15.3 and Freo 12.7.
Nice to know we have an easier time of it in the second half of the year. Our only really s**t performance away from home was against Richmond who have had our measure for quite awhile. For the slime it will depend if they finally get a few injuries but based on their draw i'd have them going at 50% for the rest of the season.
 

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