Macron, secular society & Islam counter society

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Evolved1

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And in 30 or 40 countries that would see you punished. Anywhere from a fine, to beatings, to execution.

Plus the risk of extra-judicial punishment in some countries.

Its been a while since Christians have gone on a murderous rampage over a book.

Same god, same problems. We've got Christianity on a leash in Western society...for now.
 

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HairyO

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Same god, same problems. We've got Christianity on a leash in Western society...for now.
This is the thing, for every 1 example of Christianity doing wrong there are dozens or hundreds or thousands of examples of Islam.

There simply is no equivalence.

Judeo Christian values underpin basically all free Western civilisation. Even moderate Islamic countries imprison gay people and turn a blind eye to women being beaten for daring to have a voice or wear similar clothes to men.

Christianity isnt on a leash. It is being dragged along and forced to change. Some parts (eg Catholics) are resisting but they are slowly changing too.
 

spinynorman

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The people most in favour of a hardline against Muslims living in the first world are the same ones who support parties and leaders who support the Saudi Royal Family to the extreme.

There's a complex range of problems in the world, but their removal would be a substantial step in the right direction, but will never be supported by western politicians who would rather strip their people of civil liberties and have a terrorist attack every few years or so than piss off a few dozen ultra wealthy oil barons.
 

DaRick

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It seems you have a negative attitude towards people who take on risk to build new things.
That's a little presumptuous.

I've had family members become entrepreneurs and I don't think less of them for it.

Again, a lot of innovation has nothing to do with entrepreneurialism but rather institutional research.
 

DaRick

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The people most in favour of a hardline against Muslims living in the first world are the same ones who support parties and leaders who support the Saudi Royal Family to the extreme.

There's a complex range of problems in the world, but their removal would be a substantial step in the right direction, but will never be supported by western politicians who would rather strip their people of civil liberties and have a terrorist attack every few years or so than piss off a few dozen ultra wealthy oil barons.
The scary thing about Saudi Arabia is that the populace are even crazier than the regime.

TBF to the House of Saud, they personally opposed Osama, but 80% of their populace held him in high regard. Yes, this was just after September 2001.

Ed Husain's The Islamist illustrates just how f’ed up the country is - the average Saudi is subjected to extreme sexual repression which results in sexual deviancy, including assault and kidnappings, while the royals party it up with booze, coke and prostitutes. Not to mention that many people in Husain's class wanted to go and bomb London (and no, they weren't joking or trolling).

I think they need to be handled very carefully, because an ISIS-like regime could very easily take their place (and then they'd have to be declared a terrorist state and bombed into oblivion, with the attendant effect's on oil price). I would slowly drift away from them and seek rapprochement with Iran and Russia (who are far from natural allies with the Chinese), while not remaining hostile towards the House of Saud and doing the bare minimum to keep them in power (e.g. - signing an agreement there, buying some oil here). That way, an alternative source of oil could be secured, at which point the US could work with Iran, Russia (who don't like the Saudis) and the remaining Iran-friendly, non-nutjob Islamic states (Algeria, Tunisia, Oman, Indonesia - maybe Libya/Iraq/Bosnia/Malaysia as well enough though I think some Saudi tentacles are in those countries too) to covertly counter Saudi influence in mosques and madrassas. Also take trips to regional powers like Turkey and Egypt to assure them that what the US is doing won't affect their interests.

This won't please Israel, but I consider Israel a net liability to the US despite being a relatively liberal democracy domestically (unlike apartheid South Africa). Israel is more important to Evangelical Christians domestically than what it does for the US as a whole, and young Americans aren't up with Evangelicals anyway. I would mostly be neutral on the Israel-Palestine conflict (both sides IMO have significant flaws), maybe throwing Israel a bone or two here and there so as to not annoy their de facto Saudi allies any more than necessary. If the Saudis try and impose an oil embargo anyway, it would have a lesser effect because of rapprochement with other Islamic states + Russia, and if the House of Saud fell to something resembling ISIS, it'd be a great excuse to designate Saudi Arabia as a State Sponsor of Terrorism, impose a no-fly zone (with the exception of hajj travellers going to Mecca) and have every state around them close the borders. Also, if this regime tries declaring international jihad and invading another nation, do another Desert Storm on them.

Some of this would be hard to apply, but I think the overall plan is fine. Others would balk at my treatment of the Saudi people, but even for the Middle East I think they're sui generis. They'd describe ISIS as being 100% Islam (just as they did The Taliban in Husain's book).
 

chelseacarlton

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I have most of the original cartoons, some are very clever and some are sh*t, some are just outright offensive.
If jesus or any of the judaic characters were portrayed in this way, I dare say there would have been some unrest.
Not the type we saw from the mohammedans, but some folk would have gone batshit cray cray, no doubt.
 

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ExcitementMachine

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I thought it was a RWNJ, but if it's a Muslim Terror attack - the guy had a legitimate grievance OK. He had a legitimate grievance!

Thoughts and prayers.
 
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Sweet Jesus

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I have most of the original cartoons, some are very clever and some are sh*t, some are just outright offensive.
Well, if some people thought they were "offensive" then I guess they should be censored altogether.

We can't have offensive speech. That would be awful.

If jesus or any of the judaic characters were portrayed in this way, I dare say there would have been some unrest.
Is there a precedent?
 

FurTheWin

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DaRick

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My point is that you can't spell
Sorry
Didn't mean to make you feel all deplorable
Does it matter how he spells?

BTW, you can also thank the Wahhabis for the radicalisation of Chechnya over the past 25 years or so. Chechnya traditionally has a more Sufi tradition, but the Wahhabis infiltrated the place during and after the First Chechen War.
 

FurTheWin

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Does it matter how he spells?

BTW, you can also thank the Wahhabis for the radicalisation of Chechnya over the past 25 years or so. Chechnya traditionally has a more Sufi tradition, but the Wahhabis infiltrated the place during and after the First Chechen War.
Yeah it does


Now
Thanks for your posts, they have been the better part of this thread
However, there is no good answer here, other than to say that for every great French writer and philosopher who challenged the hierarchy 200 years ago, there was also a French colonial adventurer. You reap what you sow. And there's a difference between standing up for a secular society and being deliberately provocative.
But at the end of it, I'll take that secular society
 

Taylor

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I think that both conservative and liberal positions will watch as they are moved aside by a radical religious political movement, but for different reasons. The conservatives won't compromise their principles on freedom of religion or expression to beat an enemy, the far right will, the liberals won't stand for the far right attitude and will welcome diversity (and they are correct to do that), the far left will position themselves against that of the far right such that it becomes a point to overly cover for the different group lest it validate anything the far right is concerned about.

Meanwhile a motivated insular group can gain power through elections.
 

chelseacarlton

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Well, if some people thought they were "offensive" then I guess they should be censored altogether.

We can't have offensive speech. That would be awful.

Is there a precedent?
Did I mention censorship?
Lol
I guess there is, I was there the day a kid to a hammer to “Piss Christ”, he was offended enough to cause violence to a photograph I spose?
 

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