Macron, secular society & Islam counter society

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Kwality

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No. Im playing the "power mad people of any persuasion will do whatever it takes to stay in power and force their will (and make their cash)."

BTW, Hitler was Catholic though did hate religions - just hated Jews the most.

In the last 100 years atheist dictators have been just as busy or busier than religious dictators. But of the religious dictators, one particular religion (loved by the Left) has been by far the busiest.
In what context wss Hitler a Catholic?
 

Seeds

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That's all well and good. But why is it fundamentalist Muslims rather than fundamentalist Christians beheading people for blasphemy and setting off bombs at Ariana Grande concerts? The fundamentalist Christians may also be nutters, but they don't appear to have the same proclivity for high-profile violence against soft targets while claiming divine licence. I'm sure there are examples but they are less frequent.

It's a complex question that I suspect is partly a matter of textual differences and partly a matter of how the religion is lived and taught and then brought into contact with the norms of liberal, secular, 21st-century societies.
Im a pro globalist who believes Us military intervention is often the lesser of two evils. But do you perhaps think that if the middle east was the world power and there were wars on Us soil between the middle east and US that Us evangelicals wouldnt be producing terrorists intent on killing the foreign invaders?
 

Sweet Jesus

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Im a pro globalist who believes Us military intervention is often the lesser of two evils. But do you perhaps think that if the middle east was the world power and there were wars on Us soil between the middle east and US that Us evangelicals wouldnt be producing terrorists intent on killing the foreign invaders?
That's not what has been occurring in France or even the UK.

We're not talking about a young man in Iraq or Afghanistan attacking US troops in the name of religion.
 

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Seeds

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That's not what has been occurring in France or even the UK.

We're not talking about a young man in Iraq or Afghanistan attacking US troops in the name of religion.
What has not been happening in france or the uk? There is no wars there. Those countries have very few devout christian people left and most of them are over 50. They are probably two of the most athiest countries on the planet.
 
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Sweet Jesus

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What has not been happening in france or the uk? There is no wars there.
Right, so how does it fit your frame of people in war-torn countries becoming "terrorists intent on killing the foreign invaders"?

People in France and the UK have attacked soft targets anyway, claiming to do so in the name of their faith. It's got nothing to with the US fighting wars in the Middle East.

The guy who set off a bomb at the Ariana Grande concert was born in Manchester after his family fled Gaddafi's regime in Libya. The guy who killed the French teacher was a Russian/Chechen whose family fled and took refuge in a new country. These are not victims of US wars defending their homelands against foreign invaders. These are people who sought safety in the West. Blaming US foreign policy for their crimes makes no sense.

If your theory is that US wars abroad are the proximate cause of terrorism, why wasn't there an upsurge of Vietnamese terrorism in the 1970s and 1980s? I don't recall many terrorist attacks in the West by Vietnamese claiming some animist spirit gave them divine licence for violence against soft targets. What's the Vietnamese version of jihad? Does anyone know?

How do you explain that if US foreign policy causes terrorism?

Perhaps the Vietnamese didn't share some medieval, deranging belief in holy war, martyrdom and divine licence for violence? Maybe that's the issue here, not US foreign policy.

Those countries have very few devout christian religious people left and most of them are over 50. They are probably two of the most athiest countries on the planet.
What's your point?
 
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Mofra

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People in France and the UK have attacked soft targets anyway, claiming to do so in the name of their faith. It's got nothing to with the US fighting wars in the Middle East.
France and the UK have a long history of colonialism in the Middle East so there is long-running animosity there.

None of which ever excuses murdering innocent people in the name of an imaginary man in the sky.
 

Sweet Jesus

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France and the UK have a long history of colonialism in the Middle East so there is long-running animosity there.
Gesturing vaguely at "colonialism" doesn't explain anything.

How on earth does "colonialism" explain a Chechen refugee beheading a French teacher in Paris? Was he angry about French colonialism in Chechnya?

He acted because of perceived blasphemy against the prophet, claiming religious licence for violence. Why would anyone try to claim it was because of colonialism? That makes no sense at all. Is it simply a matter of trying to construct a more palatable rationale that doesn't implicate Islam?

European powers also have a long history of colonialism throughout Asia. But the Hindus, the Buddhists and the Sikhs aren't setting off bombs at Ariana Grande concerts or beheading teachers on the other side of the world? Why is that? Is it because they're not totally deranged by their beliefs to the point of violence?

Japan was occupied after WW2, after the US nuked them twice. Their constitution was drafted under Allied occupation and the US military still to this day controls swathes of Japanese air space. Surely that is ample reason to be annoyed. So where are all the Shinto terrorists hitting soft Western targets?

The Philippines was also a US colony. Yet it's probably the most pro-US country in Asia. Where are all the Philippine terrorists hitting soft targets in the West as payback for colonialism by both the US and Spain? Where are the Vietnamese, Laotian or Khmer terrorists attacking soft French targets?

If your argument is that colonialism is the cause of terrorism, how do you explain this?

Why the desperation to find other factors and thereby implicate anything other than a distorted version of Islam itself? Why do people bend over backwards to absolve the belief system? If anything, the other examples of colonialism make clear that the particular belief system is the crucial variable here. Plenty of countries have been colonised. Plenty of populations have cause for complaint. Yet it's almost exclusively adherents of Islam that enact this violence against soft targets in the West while claiming it's all in god's name. Because colonialism? No, I don't think so. That doesn't fly.

None of which ever excuses murdering innocent people in the name of an imaginary man in the sky.
There are a variety of religious beliefs and they are all more or less as nonsensical as each other. But why is it only Islam that leads followers to kill people in a foreign land for showing a cartoon? Why aren't the Hindus, the Buddhists and the Sikhs setting off bombs at concerts in Manchester?

Why are people so desperate to pretend that Islam isn't different in this regard?

That's not to say all Islam. There are of course hundreds of millions of decent, law-abiding Muslims who would never dream of doing this. But clearly there is something about Islam - whether in the text or the way it is taught and practised in the world today - that has lent itself to distortions and a small percentage of followers using those distortions to claim divine licence for violence.

Nah, it's colonialism? It clearly isn't.
 
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Mofra

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Gesturing vaguely at "colonialism" doesn't explain anything.
You are arguing against a point I never made.

I was responding to a point about the US fighting wars in the Middle East and the link to the UK/France. The US wars in the Middle East help some clerics feed into a narrative of "Islam vs the West" but I don't believe it's a major factor, rather a excuse to aid radical Islam recruit disenfranchised people into their ideology.

Disenfranchised people within any society will find their own sense of 'belonging', and right now there are swathes of kids on the fringes of French society who don't belong to 'mainstream' society. Ditto the UK, or any modern western society. The conditions are ripe for radicalisation and it's not simply an Islamic trend - right wing radicalism in the US is on the rise with right-wing terrorism in the US claiming more lives (just) than Islamic terrorism since 911, recruited from largely white men 'left behind' by the economic progress of the US which has largely skipped them. Again, you have a disenfranchised group of people with little agency left to find their own sense of belonging.

Radical Islam is the mechanism, not the sole reason for radicalisation.
 

Sweet Jesus

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You are arguing against a point I never made.
You said: "France and the UK have a long history of colonialism in the Middle East so there is long-running animosity there."

As though colonialism is the cause of the terrorist attacks. That is what I've argued against.

There's been colonialism all over the world, affecting dozens of countries and dozens of populations of different faiths. So why aren't the Hindus, the Buddhists and the Sikhs setting off bombs at Ariana Grande concerts in Manchester and killing teachers in Paris? Why is it adherents of Islam doing that but no one else?

What is your explanation for that? Clearly the shared belief system of the killers is a factor. It's not "because colonialism".

I was responding to a point about the US fighting wars in the Middle East and the link to the UK/France. The US wars in the Middle East help some clerics feed into a narrative of "Islam vs the West" but I don't believe it's a major factor, rather a excuse to aid radical Islam recruit disenfranchised people into their ideology.
These dots don't connect.

How does the US fighting in Iraq explain a Chechen refugee killing a teacher in Paris? It doesn't. That act was motivated by the killer's belief system. It had nothing to do with US foreign policy - or the foreign policy of the UK and France.

The US also fought in Vietnam. Do you remember the wave of animist terrorism unleashed by that? I don't.

Disenfranchised people within any society will find their own sense of 'belonging', and right now there are swathes of kids on the fringes of French society who don't belong to 'mainstream' society. Ditto the UK, or any modern western society. The conditions are ripe for radicalisation and it's not simply an Islamic trend - right wing radicalism in the US is on the rise with right-wing terrorism in the US claiming more lives (just) than Islamic terrorism since 911, recruited from largely white men 'left behind' by the economic progress of the US which has largely skipped them. Again, you have a disenfranchised group of people with little agency left to find their own sense of belonging.
What a load of waffle. These are excuses designed to obfuscate the role of the belief system.

First it was "colonialism". Now it's "disenfranchised kids" and "lack of agency". Heaven forbid we look at Islam itself.

There are disenfranchised people all over the world. Stop trying to implicate other factors so we can pretend the belief system isn't the crucial variable.

Are you seriously suggesting an equivalence between radical Islam and RW extremism in the US? When was the last time a RW extremist killed a teacher for showing a cartoon?

Radical Islam is the mechanism, not the sole reason for radicalisation.
Islam is the belief system that, when distorted, compels and licenses the violence. Stop pretending otherwise. Stop casting about to blame other factors. It's implausible.
 
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Mofra

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You said: "France and the UK have a long history of colonialism in the Middle East so there is long-running animosity there."

As though colonialism is the cause of the terrorist attacks. That is what I've argued against.

There's been colonialism all over the world, affecting dozens of countries and dozens of populations of different faiths. So why aren't the Hindus, the Buddhists and the Sikhs setting off bombs at Ariana Grande concerts in Manchester and killing teachers in Paris? Why is it adherents of Islam doing that but no one else?

What is your explanation for that? Clearly the shared belief system of the killers is a factor. It's not "because colonialism".

These dots don't connect.

How does the US fighting in Iraq explain a Chechen refugee killing a teacher in Paris? It doesn't. That act was motivated by the killer's belief system. It had nothing to do with US foreign policy - or the foreign policy of the UK and France.

The US also fought in Vietnam. Do you remember the wave of animist terrorism unleashed by that? I don't.

What a load of waffle. These are excuses designed to obfuscate the role of the belief system.

First it was "colonialism". Now it's "disenfranchised kids" and "lack of agency". Heaven forbid we look at Islam itself.

There are disenfranchised people all over the world. Stop trying to point to implicate other factors so we can pretend the belief system isn't the crucial variable.

Are you seriously suggesting an equivalence between radical Islam and RW extremism in the US? When was the last time a RW extremist killed a teacher for showing a cartoon?

Islam is the belief system that, when distorted, compels and licenses the violence. Stop pretending otherwise. Stop casting about to blame other factors. It's implausible.
You seriously are asking the question of Hindus? You need to research a little more about Saffron Terror.
If Islam is the sole reason for these terror attacks, what is behind right-wing nationalist terrorism in the US? I doubt the tiki-torch carrying white boys are secret muslims. Radical Islam is certainly a violent ideology and should be stamped out but it's not the sole reason.

It's alluring to provide a simplistic answer to complex problems, but it's rarely accurate.

If you want to keep saying that I'm pointing the finger at colonialism, go for your life. I'm not, but go for it.
 

Sweet Jesus

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You seriously are asking the question of Hindus? You need to research a little more about Saffron Terror.
Not at all. Of course there are instances of Hindus engaging in sectarian violence. But when was the last time Hindu extremists exported violence and hit soft targets in the West?

If Islam is the sole reason for these terror attacks, what is behind right-wing nationalist terrorism in the US? I doubt the tiki-torch carrying white boys are secret muslims.
What a ridiculous argument. RW nationalists in the US are motivated by their own ideology. Do I really need to explain this?

In the same way, the guy who bombed the Ariana Grande concert was motivated by an ideology, just as the guy who killed Samuel Paty in Paris was motivated by an ideology.

Do you think the fact that RW nationalists in the US aren't Muslims makes any point whatsoever? It merely illustrates that there is more than one warped ideology in the world. That doesn't absolve Islam for the crimes committed in its name.

Radical Islam is certainly a violent ideology and should be stamped out but it's not the sole reason.
What is the other reason for the Chechen refugee killing a teacher in Paris? What would you like to blame instead of Islam?

He killed the teacher because the teacher showed a cartoon of the prophet and that constitutes blasphemy. But nah, that's not because of Islam. It was something else. I don't know... oh wait. It was because colonialism!

Is that how it works?

It's alluring to provide a simplistic answer to complex problems, but it's rarely accurate.
I suggest the belief system is the proximate cause when people commit violence, claiming to do so in god's name and claiming divine licence for their crimes.

You, on the other hand, bend over backwards to absolve the belief system and point to other factors.

If you want to keep saying that I'm pointing the finger at colonialism, go for your life. I'm not, but go for it.
Well, you did implicate colonialism as one of those other factors.
 
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Mofra

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What is the other reason for the Chechen refugee killing a teacher in Paris? What would you like to blame instead of Islam?

He killed the teacher because the teacher showed a cartoon of the prophet and that constitutes blasphemy. But nah, that's not because of Islam. It was something else. I don't know... oh wait. It was because colonialism!

Is that how it works?

I suggest the belief system is the proximate cause when people commit violence, claiming to do so in god's name and claiming divine license for their crimes.

You, on the other hand, bend over backwards to absolve the belief system and point to other factors.

Well, you did implicate colonialism as one of those other factors.
Where have I absolved the believe system?

Given you continue to either misconstrue my position or outright lie about it, I'll let you yell at a position that doesn't exist by yourself and save my energy for people who have the capacity to engage in a proper discussion.
 

Sweet Jesus

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Where have I absolved the believe system?
You have sought to assign responsibility elsewhere, rather than acknowledge the belief system as the proximate cause.

You have variously pointed to colonialism, disenfranchised kids and lack of agency.

It's basically a grab bag of "anything but Islam".

What is the other reason for the Chechen refugee killing a teacher in Paris? He killed Samuel Paty because he committed blasphemy but what would you like to blame instead of Islam? If you removed Islam as a factor, that murder simply wouldn't have occurred. No one gets killed for showing a cartoon absent the instruction of Islam. There are no other circumstances where that is conceivable. Paty was killed because of the belief system of his killer.

Given you continue to either misconstrue my position or outright lie about it, I'll let you yell at a position that doesn't exist by yourself and save my energy for people who have the capacity to engage in a proper discussion.
Yeah that must be it.

Go back to your Bottom 50. Jackson Nelson better be in it.
 

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Crankyhawk

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Because I accept that people can spend their money as they choose?

I don't have kids. I couldn't care less. But ultimately people can spend their money as they wish. If they want to spend it educating their kids then so be it. How is that "at the expense of others"?

What about university fees? Should they be banned too?

Should we ban private healthcare as well? Isn't that "unjust privilege"?

You've lost your marbles.
Private healthcare in Australia not efficient when you are really sick they throw you to public system. Eg mental health.
 

DaRick

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While radical Islam is patently a very bad thing for multiple reasons, plenty of people become radicalised without murdering anyone.

You'll find that the people who commit acts of terror or mass murder actually do so for various underlying reasons, many of which aren't conscious, and they are similar in more ways than most would think.

To illustrate my point, all of the below are terrorists/mass murderers - but not many are or were radical Muslims:

UK
1987 – Michael Ryan
1996 – Thomas Hamilton
2010 – Derrick Bird

USA
1927 – Andrew Kehoe
1949 – Howard Unruh
1958 – Charles Starkweather
1966 – Charles Whitman
1984 – James Huberty
1986 – Patrick Sherrill
1989 – Patrick Purdy
1991 - James Pough
1991 – George Hennard
1999 – Klebold and Harris
1999 – Larry Ashbrook
1999 – Mark Barton
2007 – Heung-Sui Cho
2009 – Michael McLendon
2009 – Nadal Hasan
2009 – Liverly Wong
2009 – George Sodini
2011 – Jared Loughner
2012 – James Holmes
2012 – Adam Lanza
2013 – Alexis Aaron
2013 – John Zawahri
2014 – Elliott Rodger
2015 – Dylann Roof
2015 – Chris Mercer

Australia/NZ/ Canada
1965 – Len Hogue
1967 – Victor Hoffman
1971 – Cliffard Bartholomew
1981 – Fouad Daoud
1984 – John Brandon
1987 – Joseph Schwab
1987 – Julian Knight
1987 – Frank Vitkovic
1988 – Dennis Rostron
1989 – Marc Lepine
1990 – David Grey
1990 – Paul Evers
1991 – Frank Wakum
1992 – Mal Baker
1992 – Brian Schlaepfer
1996 – Martin Bryant
1996 – Mark Chahal
1997 – Steve Anderson
2014 – Geoff Hunt
 

Sweet Jesus

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While radical Islam is patently a very bad thing for multiple reasons, plenty of people become radicalised without murdering anyone.

You'll find that the people who commit acts of terror or mass murder actually do so for various underlying reasons, many of which aren't conscious, and they are similar in more ways than most would think.

To illustrate my point, all of the below are terrorists/mass murderers - but not many are or were radical Muslims:
Yeah, non-Muslims also commit mass murder. Was that in dispute?
 

Sweet Jesus

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People are going to be mad about Ayaan Hirsi Ali's latest book...

 

Sweet Jesus

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HairyO

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That guy clearly wasn't a real Muslim.
Death is a traditional punishment for blasphemy in many religions. Only one mainstream one still seems to enforce it with any level of regularity.

Also, the trigger point for something being blasphemous is set quite low in that mainstream religion.

"Look, all I said to my wife is, that piece of halibut was good enough for Jehovah."
 

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