Opinion Major changes for 2023

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Tulip said:
Seeing Gawn at full forward makes me think the whole thing is doomed to fail.

I really think the Grundy deal will absolutely hamstring us going forward. Neither of these two have ever kicked more than 16 in a season. If Gawn could kick straight, he could maybe kick 30, but that's not a good return for a FF in a good team and its an abysmal return for a guy on his coin.

I get that they're being "creative" and that they had made plans for Jackson and his role in the team, and that there are no dominant KPFs on the market, but this stinks to me of a list management team with the same hubris as the coaching and playing groups this season. Thinking they can turn anything into gold because we won the flag last year.

There's a reason the Pies are sacrificing Grundy to bring in the likes of Bobby Hill and Tanner Bruhn. They recognise their strength is the pressure game, and that Darcy Cameron will do well enough as first ruck to allow them to play the game they want to play. In the process, they can remove a big salary and bring in more young, hungry players.

Sure, our strength is "the contest", but guess what: you don't have to win every hit out to take advantage of it. Opposition mids this season, despite Gawn's continuing statistical dominance in the middle, are evidence of that. We have three inside midfielders contracted to the end of this decade on massive money. Back those *ers in to win the ball at times when their ruckman isn't winning the taps, and put some money into the rest of the team to ensure we don't have to keep plugging round holes with square pegs up forward. Weideman will never be the future, and Ben Brown is cooked. McDonald is 30 coming off a massive injury, and has really only had two good seasons in the last five years anyway. JVR looks good, but he's never played a game at this level so we're going in blind there.

The worst thing you can do as a club when you have a disappointing season, particularly after pretending it wasn't happening at the time and that major changes weren't needed as we would "click into gear when needed", is to keep on digging downwards because the plan worked for so long. Bringing in Grundy makes absolutely no sense at all to me, but sadly it looks like its definitely going to happen.
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Brilliant post. Could not agree more.


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com
 
Grundy is the best available player that we can get this offseason. Two AA quality ruckmen on the list surely can't be a bad thing? Yes, interested how it will work on gameday when both playing, but maybe means less gametime for both? Imagine Gawn coming off then Grundy coming on or vice versa! Maybe plonk Gawn in the goalsquare and tell him not to leave! I don't know, but Collingwood paying a large chunk of Grundy's salary is enticing. With Jackson leaving we are bloody low on rucks on the list.
 
Crusty Demon said:
Grundy is the best available player that we can get this offseason. Two AA quality ruckmen on the list surely can't be a bad thing? Yes, interested how it will work on gameday when both playing, but maybe means less gametime for both? Imagine Gawn coming off then Grundy coming on or vice versa! Maybe plonk Gawn in the goalsquare and tell him not to leave! I don't know, but Collingwood paying a large chunk of Grundy's salary is enticing. With Jackson leaving we are bloody low on rucks on the list.
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We'll still be paying 700k or so for Grundy. It's not like he's coming cheap. When Jackson goes, we're down to one ruck with Daw retiring. Surely we can find a couple of cheap backups, like one of those GWS guys (Flynn/Briggs), who would cost us nothing?
 

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I still don't mind the idea of landing Grundy or have already come to terms with it because it's apparently a done deal, however some people have made an interesting point that Grundy coming in might allow the team to end playing the same stale way. I would hope that they can bring Grundy in and still change the way we play.
 
Crusty Demon said:
Grundy is the best available player that we can get this offseason. Two AA quality ruckmen on the list surely can't be a bad thing? Yes, interested how it will work on gameday when both playing, but maybe means less gametime for both? Imagine Gawn coming off then Grundy coming on or vice versa! Maybe plonk Gawn in the goalsquare and tell him not to leave! I don't know, but Collingwood paying a large chunk of Grundy's salary is enticing. With Jackson leaving we are bloody low on rucks on the list.
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It's not so much that Grundy is a bad player or anything but if he pay Grundy 700k, that's 1.1mill per season if he plays to 32. That means we're kissing goodbye our chances to pick up a good forward imo. So if we roll around next season with Ben Brown, TMac, JVR and Weideman than we may as well kiss the season goodbye.
 
danster168 said:
It's not so much that Grundy is a bad player or anything but if he pay Grundy 700k, that's 1.1mill per season if he plays to 32. That means we're kissing goodbye our chances to pick up a good forward imo. So if we roll around next season with Ben Brown, TMac, JVR and Weideman than we may as well kiss the season goodbye.
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That's a bit dramatic. There doesn't appear to be any good forwards on the market who we can pick up.
We have options of swinging Petty forward, we also have Monez-Wakefield who looks exciting. I'd have a forward line of TMac, Fritsch, JVR, Kozzie, Spargo, Harmes.
We are kissing the season goodbye if we don't do something about our slow and atrocious ball movement.
For the record I don't want Grundy either. Trade in a young ruck like Meek or just turn one of our guys into a part timer like Weid until we develop a drafted ruck.
 
There's some really good discussion in this thread. Hopefully Goody reads bigfooty...

Anyway, my 2 cents worth (echoing a lot of what has already been said).

2022 should be a lesson to all involved in the club that if you're leading the pack, but you're standing still, you're getting caught up to. I don't advocate for changing things just for the sake of change, but we really didn't change anything for the better over the last 12 months and just seemed to expect that what worked in 2021 would work in 2022. Except that we didn't execute it quite as well in 2022, weren't able to execute it for a full 4 quarters, the desire seemed to have dropped off a few percent, and we were a bit more banged up injury-wise.

The soft first half of the draw probably ultimately worked against us. The top teams had 6 months over the off-season to come up with a game-style to knock us off our perch. Then they had 10 rounds of being able to watch us play the same style, picking off middling teams, doing the same sort of thing as 2021. We'd probably developed a false sense of confidence that our style would hold up. It inevitably didn't.

If we're going to stay in the tope rung of teams for the next few years and keep the premiership window open, I think we need to change the messaging from 'method', 'brand', 'defensive pressure', etc, to 'Brave and Bold'. Brave and bold in how we recruit, and brave and bold in how we play. It feels as though we've collectively sat on our heels for 12 months, but we now need to get moving otherwise we risk tumbling into mid-table irrelevance.

I fear that the plan is to recruit Grundy, and then use Gawn as a key forward target (sort of a 70/30 ruck split). Unless Gawn spends 6 months re-tooling as a key forward, develops some sort of forward craft, and develops a reliable and repeatable set shot routine, this will be destined for disaster. That prelim final against Geelong was a flash in the pan, not some indication that the guy can currently play as a permanent key forward. He has a heap of work to do if that's the plan.

I like the idea of swinging Petty forward alongside JVR, and trying to plug the defensive hole left by him with Logue, or someone similar. If we can't lay our hands on another key forward in this trade period (it's probably unlikely), then this is the next best thing. It's a risk disrupting the back 6 but... brave and bold. Brown appears done. TMac might have 1 year left in him if he can get back to full fitness, but he just isn't a long-term answer to the problem. We need to come up with something.

We do need some more variety in the midfield rotations. Maybe that's Salem? I don't see us trading him (but I've come around to the idea that this is worth floating), but assuming we don't, he needs a solid kick up the ass if he wants his career to not fizzle out. We need much more from him, in terms of versatility and taking the game on. He needs to be aware that he's not a best 22 lock going into 2023, and if Bowey offers more (and I think he potentially does), then he takes his place.

The whole Sparrow/ANB/Spargo half-forward thing needs figuring out. Sparrow should be predominantly a midfielder, not a forward. If there's no space for him to fulfil that role in our line up, then I don't think he can continue to be starting 22, unless he miraculously learns some forward craft over the next 6 months. ANB and Spargo don't offer us rotation flexibility through the midfield. I don't know what to do about that, but that puts a big question mark over their career longevity.

We need to honor good form in the VFL going forward. It rewards effort, and also gives an opportunity to rest some players who might need a bit of a break due to ongoing niggling injuries. We only had one debutant this year, Turner? You really want to be cycling a few younger players through the team to get them exposure at AFL level for #learnings. Not really doing it for a 12 month period just kicks that can down the road, and if injuries go against us at some point in the future, we could end up having to debut a number of new players at once, with minimal AFL exposure.

Finally, I really hope we are a bit more active this trade period. If our only move is for Grundy then I fear we'll be back here in 12 months time, lamenting over similar things.
 
Daemon said:
That's a bit dramatic. There doesn't appear to be any good forwards on the market who we can pick up.
We have options of swinging Petty forward, we also have Monez-Wakefield who looks exciting. I'd have a forward line of TMac, Fritsch, JVR, Kozzie, Spargo, Harmes.
We are kissing the season goodbye if we don't do something about our slow and atrocious ball movement.
For the record I don't want Grundy either. Trade in a young ruck like Meek or just turn one of our guys into a part timer like Weid until we develop a drafted ruck.
Click to expand...
Oliver Henry
 
Gawn's kryptonite has always been s**t rucks, just look at whoever Brisbane had last week. At least with Grundies in the side we can have someone who can take the oppositions tallest plodder?

Imagine how good it's gonna when we finish Round 1 with JVR starring in the Globetrotters, Gawn kicking 1.2 at FF and Grundy getting injured in the ruck while we kiss goodbye a 5 goal lead in Round 1 loss at the G, glorious.
 
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Would we consider Jordan Sweet from bulldogs for a cheap upside ruck and splash some cash on something else more required?
 
thecuzsays said:
Would we consider Jordan Sweet from bulldogs for a cheap upside ruck and splash some cash on something else more required?
Click to expand...
I'd do this, or someone similar. GWS have a couple of rucks who've shown a bit in their games this year; Lynch from Hawthorn maybe? A break glass ruck is pretty cheap to find and would give us more cash/picks to use elsewhere rather than go for Grundy.
 

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Craig McRae sounding awesome again, much better than 'derp learnings'


We marked the ground today (at training), you probably saw that,” McRae said on Fox Footy’s AFL 360.

“I thought I coached really poorly (in Round 22). I believe in setting the players up for certain things to hopefully make them successful in what we’re doing, and I felt that I failed in that.

“I told the players today we’ll be better prepared for things like the shape of the ground so we can train on it and be prepared for that. Those little details are lessons learned along the way.”

Asked whether that was a “cop-out”, McRae responded: “The dimensions of the ground were different to what we’d been playing at and I didn’t reference it, I think that’s poor on my behalf.

“I should’ve known. You just move the ball slightly differently, and you’ll have to set up slightly differently.

“It’s nothing major, I’m just taking accountability for something I think I can do better.”
Click to expand...
 
Topkent said:
Craig McRae sounding awesome again, much better than 'derp learnings'
Click to expand...

yeah, that is good... better than the stand up we aren't losers nonsense.

Ok, im back on the McRae being good wagon.
 
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Benwah83 said:
There's some really good discussion in this thread. Hopefully Goody reads bigfooty...

Anyway, my 2 cents worth (echoing a lot of what has already been said).

2022 should be a lesson to all involved in the club that if you're leading the pack, but you're standing still, you're getting caught up to. I don't advocate for changing things just for the sake of change, but we really didn't change anything for the better over the last 12 months and just seemed to expect that what worked in 2021 would work in 2022. Except that we didn't execute it quite as well in 2022, weren't able to execute it for a full 4 quarters, the desire seemed to have dropped off a few percent, and we were a bit more banged up injury-wise.

The soft first half of the draw probably ultimately worked against us. The top teams had 6 months over the off-season to come up with a game-style to knock us off our perch. Then they had 10 rounds of being able to watch us play the same style, picking off middling teams, doing the same sort of thing as 2021. We'd probably developed a false sense of confidence that our style would hold up. It inevitably didn't.

If we're going to stay in the tope rung of teams for the next few years and keep the premiership window open, I think we need to change the messaging from 'method', 'brand', 'defensive pressure', etc, to 'Brave and Bold'. Brave and bold in how we recruit, and brave and bold in how we play. It feels as though we've collectively sat on our heels for 12 months, but we now need to get moving otherwise we risk tumbling into mid-table irrelevance.

I fear that the plan is to recruit Grundy, and then use Gawn as a key forward target (sort of a 70/30 ruck split). Unless Gawn spends 6 months re-tooling as a key forward, develops some sort of forward craft, and develops a reliable and repeatable set shot routine, this will be destined for disaster. That prelim final against Geelong was a flash in the pan, not some indication that the guy can currently play as a permanent key forward. He has a heap of work to do if that's the plan.

I like the idea of swinging Petty forward alongside JVR, and trying to plug the defensive hole left by him with Logue, or someone similar. If we can't lay our hands on another key forward in this trade period (it's probably unlikely), then this is the next best thing. It's a risk disrupting the back 6 but... brave and bold. Brown appears done. TMac might have 1 year left in him if he can get back to full fitness, but he just isn't a long-term answer to the problem. We need to come up with something.

We do need some more variety in the midfield rotations. Maybe that's Salem? I don't see us trading him (but I've come around to the idea that this is worth floating), but assuming we don't, he needs a solid kick up the ass if he wants his career to not fizzle out. We need much more from him, in terms of versatility and taking the game on. He needs to be aware that he's not a best 22 lock going into 2023, and if Bowey offers more (and I think he potentially does), then he takes his place.

The whole Sparrow/ANB/Spargo half-forward thing needs figuring out. Sparrow should be predominantly a midfielder, not a forward. If there's no space for him to fulfil that role in our line up, then I don't think he can continue to be starting 22, unless he miraculously learns some forward craft over the next 6 months. ANB and Spargo don't offer us rotation flexibility through the midfield. I don't know what to do about that, but that puts a big question mark over their career longevity.

We need to honor good form in the VFL going forward. It rewards effort, and also gives an opportunity to rest some players who might need a bit of a break due to ongoing niggling injuries. We only had one debutant this year, Turner? You really want to be cycling a few younger players through the team to get them exposure at AFL level for #learnings. Not really doing it for a 12 month period just kicks that can down the road, and if injuries go against us at some point in the future, we could end up having to debut a number of new players at once, with minimal AFL exposure.

Finally, I really hope we are a bit more active this trade period. If our only move is for Grundy then I fear we'll be back here in 12 months time, lamenting over similar things.
Click to expand...

Excellent post. Can't disagree with anything although I do have reservations about taking Petty, who is streets ahead of Lever as our second best tall defender for 1v1 purposes, and putting him on the forward line on the back of 0 exposed form up there.

Not saying it couldn't work because obviously he can take a nice grab, but I'd much prefer to get some new tall forward talent in and let Petty continue to be a star in the backline. Some of his efforts against Brisbane were inspirational.
 
LarryDavidNeitz said:
Excellent post. Can't disagree with anything although I do have reservations about taking Petty, who is streets ahead of Lever as our second best tall defender for 1v1 purposes, and putting him on the forward line on the back of 0 exposed form up there.

Not saying it couldn't work because obviously he can take a nice grab, but I'd much prefer to get some new tall forward talent in and let Petty continue to be a star in the backline. Some of his efforts against Brisbane were inspirational.
Click to expand...
Understood re. Petty. I'd prefer some new forward talent in too. Will see how the trade period plays out but I'm concerned that we're not (at least publicly) after anyone that fits that bill.

I guess my position was - if we don't land a key forward in the trade period, I'd rather take the punt on moving Petty forward to support JVR than hoping our 2021 forward line up and/or Gawn could get the job done, because I don't think they can. Might hurt us defensively because he'd be hard to replace down there, but I'd rather take the gamble and it blow up in our faces, than us just dying the same predictable death that we did this year.
 
Benwah83 said:
Understood re. Petty. I'd prefer some new forward talent in too. Will see how the trade period plays out but I'm concerned that we're not (at least publicly) after anyone that fits that bill.

I guess my position was - if we don't land a key forward in the trade period, I'd rather take the punt on moving Petty forward to support JVR than hoping our 2021 forward line up and/or Gawn could get the job done, because I don't think they can. Might hurt us defensively because he'd be hard to replace down there, but I'd rather take the gamble and it blow up in our faces, than us just dying the same predictable death that we did this year.
Click to expand...

Absolutely, if it was round 1 tomorrow and we had to play with this year's list I'd be up for starting JVR / Petty as our key forwards instead of more of the same.

But I'll be very disappointed if nobody arrives in this trade/draft period who could start in a key forward position. If you accept that Grundy is coming in we're going to have a resting ruckman down there most of the time, I'd be happy with something like this:

Gunston (or similar player) - Fritsch - Pickett
Chandler - JVR - Grundy/Gawn

Putting aside whether Grundy is a good idea or not, if we do go that way I don't think we need another 195cm+ monster - a proven goalkicker who can take a grab like Gunston would complement Fritsch and JVR well I reckon.
 
Fritsch is one of the most natural forwards in the AFL

It's truly a shame that he doesn't get the ball 15 times a game - we'd be a much better team if he did.

He's had a strange year as the only shining light as a marking target, kicking another 50+ goals, but he's averaged less disposals and less marks than last year. Also feel like he'd go missing for quarters or halves at a time. We need to let him roam up the ground more, as he's talented enough to get involved in general play and hit targets going forward.

He can beat you on the lead, take a mark over you and get you on the ground. He could kick 60+ in a H&A season if we played with a bit more fluency and backed our forwards 1v1 instead of waiting for the cavalry to arrive and bombing it to the pocket.

Last 2 years combined he's kicked 114.46 - stop ripping into the bloke when he takes a ping and misses, as he's probably the best guy to have the shot in our team and one of the best in the league.

However our forward line structures up next year, this guy needs to be given space to work, a license to make the play/take the shot and the mids should be told to get it into him
 
Gunston would be an incredible pick up, and well worth the short term cost in both salary and draft picks. Would imagine he'd be worth something circa pick 20 despite his age. I've been a vocal proponent of Petty forward for a long time, but Gunston would be a seriously good option too. Otherwise, go after Griffin Logue for a pick in the same range and play Petty forward. In an ideal world, Hibberd and particularly Melksham are nowhere near the team next year and we refresh both arcs a bit whilst changing the way we move the ball.

Lever - May - Bowey
Salem - Petty/Logue - Brayshaw

Gawn - Petracca - Oliver
Langdon - Viney - Jordan

Spargo - Gunston/Petty - McDonald
Pickett - Van Rooyen - Fritsch

I'd be more than happy with a mix like this going into rd 1. Rivers, Sparrow, Neal-Bullen, Hunt, Bedford all guys who should be looking for bench spots, the first three named had really bad seasons and don't deserve to be auto-inclusions. I'm also big on the Howes train, I reckon he takes that JJ wing before the year is out.
 
stEdy said:
Fritsch is one of the most natural forwards in the AFL

It's truly a shame that he doesn't get the ball 15 times a game - we'd be a much better team if he did.

He's had a strange year as the only shining light as a marking target, kicking another 50+ goals, but he's averaged less disposals and less marks than last year. Also feel like he'd go missing for quarters or halves at a time. We need to let him roam up the ground more, as he's talented enough to get involved in general play and hit targets going forward.

He can beat you on the lead, take a mark over you and get you on the ground. He could kick 60+ in a H&A season if we played with a bit more fluency and backed our forwards 1v1 instead of waiting for the cavalry to arrive and bombing it to the pocket.

Last 2 years combined he's kicked 114.46 - stop ripping into the bloke when he takes a ping and misses, as he's probably the best guy to have the shot in our team and one of the best in the league.

However our forward line structures up next year, this guy needs to be given space to work, a license to make the play/take the shot and the mids should be told to get it into him
Click to expand...

Fritsch should be full forward and plan A should be to get it down to him 1v1 as often as possible. The more one on ones he gets the more shots on goal and the more goals he kicks.
 
LarryDavidNeitz said:
Absolutely, if it was round 1 tomorrow and we had to play with this year's list I'd be up for starting JVR / Petty as our key forwards instead of more of the same.

But I'll be very disappointed if nobody arrives in this trade/draft period who could start in a key forward position. If you accept that Grundy is coming in we're going to have a resting ruckman down there most of the time, I'd be happy with something like this:

Gunston (or similar player) - Fritsch - Pickett
Chandler - JVR - Grundy/Gawn

Putting aside whether Grundy is a good idea or not, if we do go that way I don't think we need another 195cm+ monster - a proven goalkicker who can take a grab like Gunston would complement Fritsch and JVR well I reckon.
Click to expand...

Yep, would absolutely be happy with Gunston as the option.
 
No one thought my boy Mabior could kick goals 'til that franchise near Movie World recruited him and got him to kick goals.
Maybe there's some spud somewhere who is only a spud because they don't have elite Melbourne Demons development to turn them into a superstar.
Lewie Mitchell kicked 20 goals last year this year he kick 40. Stengle I never even heard off he kicks goals too all of a sudden.

Time for their recruiters to find some diamonds in the rough, get me some Lewie Mitchell or My Boy Mabior or some of that Stengle from the scrapheap.
Or tell Charlie Curnow he will never play finals again unless he moves from Carlton to Dees. Give me his number I'll call him myself and tell him.

Don't give me this "we got grundies because there was nothing else available" make something available you campaigners.
 
The old " we know youre contracted but you'll do as your told or we have ways of making you" recruiting....I like it Toump.
 
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