Makybe Diva comparisons

[starz]

You haven't understood my post then.
I know many a good stayer (nothing more) has won the Melbourne Cup, particularly many years ago.
i'm not saying that makes them a legend, far from it.

Read the first post again.

 

[sethlad]

Thats the problem,despite a genuine attempt,no-one understands the initial post.
You keep saying,read the post but we all have & no-one gets the point youre trying to make.

seth

 

[starz]

All clear from my end.

 

[nicolbolas]

All clear from my end.

It may be clear on your end, but i have a question? What do you class as the 4 majors? Does the Sydney Cup count? Is a group 1, same as Melbourne Cup and over same distance?
Personally congradulate the Diva on winning three cups, but overall, the last was gifted to a certain extent, watering the track so that 8 races into the card the track is still closer to dead than good on a warm/hot day, and a more than generous weight considering won previous two cups, plus every other race in the season.
For mine the Cox plate is the heavyweight title, WFA, and recognised internationally, to be included in world series of racing. Melbourne Cup, handicap, not always the best horses, if ever, and over 3200m. The day is a mid week meet with a Group 1.
When Northerly won Caulfield Cup, carried greatest weight in 40 years to victory, 1st attempt at distance, backed up week later in Cox Plate to win second time, however was weighted out of Melbourne Cup. Won Aust horse of year twice and as Seth pointed out should have been three, Sunline great mare, but never beat Northerly.
And for the speculation Phar Lap was allegedly poisoned by arsenic, not steroids!


cheers

 

[starz]

Where did i ever say four majors? I said two.

The rest are all good races with top contendors.. but a lot of the shorter distance races with 18+ runners unfortunately turn into crapshoots where barriers play a huge part, that's one of the benefits of 3200m, the best horse will win 99 times out of 100.

As for the track, it was watered to make it safe and fair for all, it was a dry windy day and by late afternoon the track rating was closer to 'good' anyway.
Regardless, MD would have won on a marble table.. way too good.
If you want to know my thoughts on the weights see the first post.
Hope that clears it up for you.

 

[nicolbolas]

Where did i ever say four majors? I said two.
QUOTE]

Sorry, must have misinterpreted your opening statement, my fault since it was so clear.

So let me get this straight, there are only two majors, and to be considered a great, you must have won 4 majors, but not all the same one (your words). Even the great Diva doesn't qualify under your criteria since three of her victories were in the same race. Please correct me if i'm wrong.

And again does the sydney or Adelaide cups class as a major since they are run over same distance, have the same status (Group 1) and are run over handicap conditions, and if not why not.

Also just because the Melbourne Cup has been run over 145 or so years, this also doesn't mean it is the greatest race, if you were going on time then the Derby takes that accolade.

The Diva's strike rate in group races was good, (exceptional in the last year and a bit), however still was not as good as others.

Cheers

 

[sethlad]

Dont worry,no-one understands it,Ive read it 4x & this is what I read:

If you dont win the MC & CP you cant be a legend,even if you didnt even run in both.

You can win as many Gp 1's as you like at WFA or handicap,beating all comers but its irrelevant because you didnt win the CP & MC.

The MC is a superior race to the CP because its worth more.

Races less than 3200m are for weak horses who basically arent good enough.

Final word goes to those who make it their business to know.
There are 28 horses in Racings Hall Of Fame & 7 have won Melb Cups.

How did the other 21 rise to be considered in Racings best if they were winning "Mickey Mouse lower class races which wont elevate your status to any significance among the legends".

Problem with that logic is,theyre already legends,as judged by experts.
I doubt even you would question that,although I couldnt be sure.
Thats all she wrote.

seth

 

[nicolbolas]

i tried to stay out as long as i could, but in the end the itch became unbearable, so i scratched it, was for more a stir i suppose.

Personally speaking, i rate the MC behind quite a number of other races, maybe thats my problem????

Sidenote, saw in other thread you were heading out to cranbourne tonight, howd you go?

Cheers

 

[SaintsSupporter]

I wish you'd all stop arguing over something as trivial as what to label a horse. There is no set borders between champion and legend, for most it's a matter of personal opinion.

Manikato deserves to be called a legend, no question, yet he hasn't gone near winning a Cox Plate of a Melbourne Cup. Just because you're born to run for longer journeys doesn't mean you deserve divine right to be called a legend, whereas a sprinter/miler that's done the equivalent or better doesn't.

This is one of the most frustrating and stupid arguments I've ever seen on BigFooty, to be honest.

 

[sethlad]

Wasnt much of a punting night with 3 or 4 shorties but the 2 main races were great.The Warp Drive did a huge job to hold off Foreal in the Cup.

Good to see A Touch Of Flair dominant in the trotters,seems to be flying for D Douglas.Hopefully he can repel the NZ invasion in the Inter in Jan.

Im a huge MC fan but its the whole carnival that makes it.Its improving as a race in the last 15 yrs,this yrs result will do it nothing but good.

SS,this thread is insulting to many great champions IMO,thats why its important.

seth

 

[nicolbolas]

Wasnt much of a punting night with 3 or 4 shorties but the 2 main races were great.The Warp Drive did a huge job to hold off Foreal in the Cup.

Good to see A Touch Of Flair dominant in the trotters,seems to be flying for D Douglas.Hopefully he can repel the NZ invasion in the Inter in Jan.

Im a huge MC fan but its the whole carnival that makes it.Its improving as a race in the last 15 yrs,this yrs result will do it nothing but good.

seth

The Warp Drive is a great horse!!

Love the whole carnival, had to miss it this year for the first time in about ten/fifteen years, birth of first born and all, although small price to pay!! i will say, thought the MC this year was fantastic with the japanese quinella. It is getting better with the internationals that are coming out, and will only get better, the VRC have marketed it worldwide very well.

Cheers

 

[sethlad]

Yep,its quite a week but thats as good an excuse as youll ever get
Another fantastic new chapter this year adding to the great races history.
Love the internationals,they add the x factor.

seth

 

[Angus1]

Died of a heart attack and some say because of steroids, which could explain the size of the horse and size of the heart… but that's speculative, I’m calling a legit legend.
And that’s the way it is, MD is regarded is the greatest and Phar Lap second place.

Are you suggesting that Phar Lap was using steroids? That is an outrageous thing to say. But then you go on to say that Phar Lap comes in second to Makybe Diva. Again that is outrageous.

Anyone mentioning the Caulfield Cup as one of the great races (as I’ve heard) has nfi.
It is a Melbourne Cup trial, a crapshoot around an ordinary biased track, nothing more.
Mickey mouse one-off international races are a nice feather in the cap but the truth is some travel some don’t.. long flights and foreign conditions on limited prep are not taken seriously and dismissed.

The Caulfield Cup isn't one of our great races? That wouldn't be because MD didn't win would it? The fact that it is a handicap is really the only downside of this race but then again the Melb Cup is also a Handicap so that shouldn't bother you at all right?

And that's why Makybe Diva is in a league of her own won 4 majors and won them easily. The legend of all legends that completely dominated the big races and reached a level we won’t see again for a very long time.
On top of that, retired at the peak of her powers and many-a good judge have no doubts she could have gone on and done it all again the following year just as easily.
There are many different levels of legends, Makybe Diva owns the penthouse and the rest are on the floors below, most of them a long way down.

I would have thought a legend was a horse that dominated their era. MD Dominated in 2005 but i don't think you can say she dominated at any other time. In fact of her 15 career wins 6 of them came in 2005. An oustanding year without doubt but that is her only standout year.
As for going on and winning the Melb Cup another year don't you think the handicapper would give her more weight like most other great horses have got in the past way into the 60+kg bracket. This is the reason why most of the top horses don't enter in the Cup because more often then not they would carry too much weight .
Phar Lap won by 3 lengths in 1930 with 62.5. In 1931 he carried 68 kg. ( I think it is reasonable to assume that Phar lap may have won more Melb Cups if he wasn't penalised so heavily.)
Phar Lap didn't win a race until his 11th start but then went on to win the next 35 out of 41 starts.
Tulloch is another horse who dominated his era. In 52 starts he manged 36 wins and only finished unplaced once.
Kingston Town won 30 races from 41 starts even though he sustained a serious leg injury in 1980 which led to 10 months off from racing.

So yes Makybe Diva was a champion but to say she was Australia's best ever race horse is going a bit far. And to say that she was better then Phar Lap is just plain rediculous. MD did win 3 Melb Cups which is an outstanding achievement but I doubt she would have won with 68 kg at her second attempt and I doubt she would even enter with such a huge weight.

 

[medusala]

As for the track, it was watered to make it safe and fair for all, it was a dry windy day and by late afternoon the track rating was closer to 'good' anyway.
Regardless, MD would have won on a marble table.. way too good.

like in Japan?

 

[starz]

ffs going around in circles here. I've already covered all of these points.

I didn’t say 4 different major races, I said a total of four wins of the 2 majors, there are only two.
Yes, technically there are more group 1’s but the Cox and Melbourne Cup are a mile ahead of the others incl. the races you suggested. Which are a nice feather in the cap, not much more.
You wouldn’t be elevated to the top rung of legends by winning the Adelaide Cup etc twice, great effort but who gives a **** really. Sorry, that’s just the way it is.

 

[Deej]

Northerly was good, but nothing overly outstanding from the rest.

You're either a troll or a moron, no middle ground. If you're being serious then dude you're a moron i kid you not. You know how morons dont know they're morons? That's you.

 

[Ted]

But then you go on to say that Phar Lap comes in second to Makybe Diva. Again that is outrageous.

But as well as being a drug cheat, Phar Lap never won at Wangaratta or Sale, which you need to do to be a top-shelf elite champion legend.

Same goes for Tulloch, Kingston Town, Manikato, Northerly and all of those other donkeys that aren't MD.

 

[Im The Gun]

This is what I've gotten so far by reading the rubbish that Starz has written.

Maybe Better is the best Australian horse racing because he beat all other Australian horses in this years cup.

Sounds silly doesn't it? but wen you keep going on about how the Cup is the best race, then the best placed horse should be the best horse in the land.

Starz a few qustions.
1) How long have you been following racing?

2) Have you seen what horses like Kingston Town did, i mean seen the videos? if not go and buy the King and The Man. You'll learn a few things.

Don't get me wrong, I loved the diva, but to say she was the best ever or even close to it is just wrong and dumb. Her record was great in the last 2 seasons, but leading up to that it wasn't. The class of horse she beat was well below par. She never carried more than 58 and won.
Her Cox Plate was one of the worst in the last 10 years. It was also the worst group of rides you'll ever see in one race, Boss was the only good ride.

 

[starz]

You're either a troll or a moron, no middle ground. If you're being serious then dude you're a moron i kid you not. You know how morons dont know they're morons? That's you.

This kid doesn't know what a track rating is... LOL
Resorting to insults shows your maturity.

 

[starz]

@ Im _the_, i've already addressed the other points to your posts.

 

[starz]

2) Have you seen what horses like Kingston Town did, i mean seen the videos? if not go and buy the King and The Man. You'll learn a few things.

And yes absolutely.
Kingston Town is a favourite of mine, but wasn’t good enough to win the biggest race.
Sunline was another of my favs.. But again only won 2 majors, nowhere near good enough to win the Melbourne Cup, no stamina and heart.
All your other favourite low rated race winners of which there are many, great horses but they don‘t stack up, sorry.
They haven’t gone down as anything special because really, they did nothing special.

The Cox Plate is a super race and it deserves to be alongside the Melbourne Cup as our other major but this years winner, the old 9yo warhorse Fields of Omagh would have got near Efficient or Zipping in a match race over any distance.

Makybe Diva completely dominated the Cox Plate last year and despite not being a 2 miler… (none of our horses are, that's where the Melbourne Cup seperates the all-round champions from the rest) was able to dig deep, find the heart carrying top weight all just 9 days later and win the Grand Final Melbourne Cup just as easily. For the third time!

Talk about the other Group 1's all you want, they aren't the majors, mickey mouse race to generate money and please the punters at any old time of the year are a nice feather in the cap, nothing more. Sorry... tell me who won, or don't.
All the magic happens in the Spring Carnival. The Cox Plate and at Flemington in Australia's biggest race.

 

[Im The Gun]

@ Im _the_, i've already addressed the other points to your posts.

I'm a betting man and I'll just about have the house on it the first race you ever had a bet on was the mares first or second cup.

You have said a number of times that the cup is one of the 2 best races in australia.
Yet you haven't given a good enough reason to your point.

The Melbourne Cup is ran at 3200m with handicap conditions. it's a race where not even the best in form field is entered, think back to this years again 2 horses missed out because of the lesser performed international horses.
The cup field most of the time have runners who haven't won for close to 12 months. Most horses after running in the cup don't win again and most of the time the best horse in the race runs midfield.

I can name over 30 horses all of who are better rated via timeform or better performed against other champion horses that didn't win the cup. The Diva was a great horse and what she did was amazing but how many cup winners in history have gotten 55kgs at their second try or how many double cup winners who won a BMW and a Australian Cup (2 races rated higher than the cup) in between get only 58kgs?

IMO the top 10 races are in order:
1) The Cox Plate - WFA
2) The BMW - WFA
3) The Caulfield Cup - Hcp
4) The Doncaster - Hcp
5) The Australian Cup - WFA
6) The Newmarket - Hcp
7) The Queen Elizabeth Stks - WFA
8) The Lightening - WFA
9) The Mackinnon - WFA
10) The Melbourne Cup - Hcp

See where the cup really sits.

 

[sethlad]

but this years winner, the old 9yo warhorse Fields of Omagh would have got near Efficient or Zipping in a match race over any distance.

So a dual CP winner & multiple WFA winner wouldnt have got near a 3yo who's won 2 average, 3yo only distance races or a battling stayer who finished unplaced in the "mickey mouse C Cup?"

this thread gets better & better

seth

 

[Im The Gun]

And yes absolutely.
Kingston Town is a favourite of mine, but wasn’t good enough to win the biggest race.

He won it 3 times

Sunline was another of my favs.. But again only won 2 majors, nowhere near good enough to win the Melbourne Cup, no stamina and heart.

She won a Doncaster, a race 10x better than the cup will ever be

All your other favourite low rated race winners of which there are many, great horses but they don‘t stack up, sorry.
They haven’t gone down as anything special because really, they did nothing special.

The Cox Plate is a super race and it deserves to be alongside the Melbourne Cup as our other major but this years winner, the old 9yo warhorse Fields of Omagh would have got near Efficient or Zipping in a match race over any distance.

1) Efficient didn't run in the cup and 2) Zipping is not that great. whats his WFA record?

At FOO's peak (around 2/3/4 years ago) he would have beaten just about every horse running in Australia around the Valley - thats how good Northerly and Sunline were

Makybe Diva completely dominated the Cox Plate last year and despite not being a 2 miler… (none of our horses are, that's where the Melbourne Cup seperates the all-round champions from the rest) was able to dig deep, find the heart carrying top weight all just 9 days later and win the Grand Final Melbourne Cup just as easily. For the third time!

Look at the facts. The Cox Plate 12 of the 14 jockeys rode the worst race they'll ever ride.

Talk about the other Group 1's all you want, they aren't the majors, mickey mouse race to generate money and please the punters at any old time of the year are a nice feather in the cap, nothing more. Sorry... tell me who won, or don't.

This is were you look like a very silly person.
The Caulfield cup is a major, the Doncaster is a major, and have a look at my list of teh top 10 races.

All the magic happens in the Spring Carnival. The Cox Plate and at Flemington in Australia's biggest race.

You do know that horses on avg. have 2 preps a year, the Sydney carnival while not as big has a heap of major races.

 

[Im The Gun]

By the way starz I was just thinking.
If you really think that the Cup is such a great race and rated so high you must know very little about racing.

Any time you want to have a punt, drop me a email and I'll give you SP everytime. I think I'll be able to retire on you alone within 6 months.

do you need me to tell you want SP is?