Mal Michael Appreciation Thread

[mediumsizered]

Carlton were still interested enough to have him train at the club.

Football department yes, board no.

Crap. Any coach that doesn't have an involvement the trading/drafting and list management process isn't doing his job properly.

Pagan was interested in having Zantuck train at the club, but fortunately Pagan didn't have the final say in whether he was drafted or not.

The football department, led by Sticks, made the decision on Zantuck. That is what they are there for.

Coaches coach & the recruiting department recruit. Coaches may put together a wish list prior to trading/drafting, but ultimately most coaches rely on the expertise of their recruiting people. You would suspect that the recruiting decisions for this year's draft at St Kilda were pretty much set in concrete before Ross Lyon was appointed as coach. Sheedy's total hands on approach to all things football may have worked up to 5-6 years ago, but the structure of all clubs have changed substantially since then. IMO Sheedy is still not prepared to let go & the club aren't forcing him to do so.

We have digressed a bit so let me make it clear I have no issue with Essendon recruiting Mal Michael. They acted within the rules of the AFL, as the AFL's investigation found. My issue lies with the fact that Mal Michael did the wrong thing by the Brisbane Lions in not giving them the opportunity to negotiate a trade for him. Particularly with him telling them that he didn't want to be traded because he wasn't sure he could commit himself to another club. With the Brisbane Lions losing their salary cap concessions, the loss of Michael without due compensation is a double whammy for the club. That is why I continue to question his integrity, because the Brisbane Lions gave him a second chance after he lost his way at Collingwood & this is how he repays them. I just question whether a club like Essendon, which has started to welcome young players into the fold really needs a player of Michael's type around these kids.

 

[shiva25]

But they didn't pick him up, though. Wiser heads prevailed. That is why coaches should not be involved in choosing the players to be listed. Many coaches (Pagan included) are more inclined to choose a player with their own interests in mind rather than the overall best interests of the club. It is often more about survival than satisfying the club's needs.

Youll have to excuse Longy.Rather than answer your question about where these players are now he just beats around the bush trying to avoid the point your actually trying to make in an effort to make like he knows more than yourself.

 

[Longy413]

Pagan was interested in having Zantuck train at the club, but fortunately Pagan didn't have the final say in whether he was drafted or not.

The football department, led by Sticks, made the decision on Zantuck. That is what they are there for.

Coaches coach & the recruiting department recruit. Coaches may put together a wish list prior to trading/drafting, but ultimately most coaches rely on the expertise of their recruiting people. You would suspect that the recruiting decisions for this year's draft at St Kilda were pretty much set in concrete before Ross Lyon was appointed as coach. Sheedy's total hands on approach to all things football may have worked up to 5-6 years ago, but the structure of all clubs have changed substantially since then. IMO Sheedy is still not prepared to let go & the club aren't forcing him to do so.

Stop guessing.

Just admit you have no idea what goes on at a football club. Coaches don't put together a wish list, they watch footy. They go to the Championships, the pile through hours and hours of video. They go to the TAC Cup, they go to state league football games, they go to the draft camp, they talk to potential draftees. They are qualified to make a decision.

They don't just say, oh we want a ruckman.

Do you think Clarke would have gone to St Kilda if Thomas was still coach?

You did get one thing right, yes coaches rely on their recruiting department but it is then up to the coach to empower the recruiting manager to make the decision.

But the buck at all clubs (except Carlton) stops with the coach. They live and die by the decisions they make and the decisions their staff make on their behalf. Sheedy didn't draft Gumbleton, he didn't make that decision. Our recruiting team did. But what Sheedy did do, is empower the recruiting team to make that decision and have an input into the decisions that were made.

The decisions to delist the players we delisted, the decision to draft six first year players in the national draft. The decision to trade Dean Solomon.

Don't make guesses on the structure of the Essendon Football Club and its football department, it has changed significantly in the last 5-6 years and even more so in the last 18 months.

Is Sticks a recruiting expert? Is he a draft watcher, does he watch the number of games of AFL that Pagan watches? Did he was QAFL games and see Zantuck play? Did he have a qualified understanding of the talent pool?

If the answer to any of those questions is no, then the wrong bloke is making the wrong decisions about what players can and cannot come into your club.

 

[Longy413]

Youll have to excuse Longy.Rather than answer your question about where these players are now he just beats around the bush trying to avoid the point your actually trying to make in an effort to make like he knows more than yourself.

It was a rhetorical question.

Don't enter into a debate with nitpicking. It was a question we both knew the answer to and it was also an invalid question. He made a claim about Essendon drafting mature players, Alvey and Zantuck were still young. They just weren't very good.

Don't post, just read. You might learn something.

 

[shiva25]

It was a rhetorical question.

Don't enter into a debate with nitpicking. It was a question we both knew the answer to and it was also an invalid question. He made a claim about Essendon drafting mature players, Alvey and Zantuck were still young. They just weren't very good.

Don't post, just read. You might learn something.

I have read the garbage youve been writing and as usual you try to floor everybody with crap diverting answers to questions.Essendon have drafted their fair share of mature players over the last few years that have been ordinary decisions to say the least

 

[Longy413]

I have read the garbage youve been writing and as usual you try to floor everybody with crap diverting answers to questions.Essendon have drafted their fair share of mature players over the last few years that have been ordinary decisions to say the least

I have no doubt you've been reading my posts. It's like a hobby for you, it's cute.

I've slammed Essendon's recruiting a number of times. Unfortunately, I do try and keep things in context and in this case the defense of drafting Ackland over Michael was based on age. Alvey and Zantuck were younger than Ackland and redundant to the arguement because of that.

When you are making the point that you don't draft anyone over 26 because it is counter-productive to future development as Carlton are doing and then point out examples such as Campo, Murphy, Allan as to why it doesn't work. That's fine, I get that. To include Alvey and Zantuck is redundant because they were younger than 26. They don't actually belong in the arguement.

Get it?

 

[mediumsizered]

Stop guessing.

Is Sticks a recruiting expert? Is he a draft watcher, does he watch the number of games of AFL that Pagan watches? Did he was QAFL games and see Zantuck play? Did he have a qualified understanding of the talent pool?

If the answer to any of those questions is no, then the wrong bloke is making the wrong decisions about what players can and cannot come into your club.

Whether Sticks is a recruiting expert is not the issue, the issue is that the right decision was made in relation to not recruiting Zantuck or Gardiner for that matter. That is the decision making a club needs.

What did Zantuck bring to Essendon? Certainly no long term benefits. More likely a band aid solution to try & delay the inevitable downward slide that the club has to have.

Your comments about Solomon are interesting, too. The club fought tooth & nail to stop him from going to Richmond, but have ultimately unloaded him anyway. Who's decision was it to keep Solomon & how come he suddenly became expendable? Would I be too far off the mark if I suggested that Sheedy made sure Solomon didn't get to Richmond?

Coaches are too emotionally involved to be making these decisions, that is why they are best left to the football department.

 

[Longy413]

Whether Sticks is a recruiting expert is not the issue, the issue is that the right decision was made in relation to not recruiting Zantuck or Gardiner for that matter. That is the decision making a club needs. .

It is an issue because if Sticks doesn't have an appreciation for the talent pool then he is the wrong person to make the decision.

If you are saying "don't draft player A, draft player B instead" without knowing if player B is better as a footballer, as a person, then if it was my club, I'd see it as an issue.

What did Zantuck bring to Essendon? Certainly no long term benefits. More likely a band aid solution to try & delay the inevitable downward slide that the club has to have.

He bought very little to Essendon, probably had one or two good senior games and that was it.

But he wasn't old, it was a punt, just like you take a punt on an 18 year-old and hope you get 15 years out of him, we took a punt on a 22 year-old that we could get 10 years out of him.

That's not a band-aid solution, Mal Michael is but Ty Zantuck wasn't. We didn't recruit him with the vision he'd just play a couple of seasons.

The difference with Michael though, is he's actually a good leader and has already been a positive influence on our young defenders.

Your comments about Solomon are interesting, too. The club fought tooth & nail to stop him from going to Richmond, but have ultimately unloaded him anyway. Who's decision was it to keep Solomon & how come he suddenly became expendable? Would I be too far off the mark if I suggested that Sheedy made sure Solomon didn't get to Richmond?

He suddenly became expendable because his body was falling apart and couldn't play the position we required him to. So we got someone else who could.

Sheedy made sure he didn't go to Richmond because we required Solly at Essendon. He finished top 3 in our B&F, so the decision was vindicated.

 

[Snuka]

I don't know anything about his foundation, I haven't looked into it and nor do I care to. It all seems to be speculation.

He won't have to miss training sessions, that was one of the reasons he came to Essendon. Essendon's schedule is completely different to that at Brisbane, we don't train every day. Re-hab is done the night of a game and there is a complete day off during the week (as per AFLPA regulations). That allows him to explore his extra interests.....

Before I start, I'm not backing up or agreeing with anything mediumsizered said and i'm not arguing with what you've posted ...but again I think your still not understanding that the whole 'Brisbane wouldn't allow Mal a modified schedule to work on his foundation' story has only ever been suggested by the media. Brisbane have flat out said that it never came up and even claim that they broached the subject with him and he said it had nothing to do with his retirement...and if you choose not to believe the club...Mal himself has never suggested that he asked the club for any time off or a modified schedule.

We can keep talking about how E'don has accommodated Mal's outside interests but there's been nothing said that suggest that Brisbane weren't willing to do it. Now, i'm not casting dispertions on the player...honestly maybe he just wanted out of the club or the city (and that's fair enough), but to keep hinting that Brisbane were not willing to offer a compromise to a club champion is just ignoring what's actually been said by those involved.

So basically i'm not sure how you can keep pushing this angle that has been flatly denied by one party and not even suggested by the other as the absolute truth.

 

[Ari]

Whether Sticks is a recruiting expert is not the issue, the issue is that the right decision was made in relation to not recruiting Zantuck or Gardiner for that matter. That is the decision making a club needs.

Youre implying that Carlton hasnt had it's fair share of duds? Every club has them! I mean, you guys took Bannister off our hands for crying out loud! How embarrassing!

What did Zantuck bring to Essendon? Certainly no long term benefits. More likely a band aid solution to try & delay the inevitable downward slide that the club has to have.

Essendon made a mistake. It happens. All clubs make mistakes. It's the risk involved in drafting. All in all though I would think Essendon did a lot better than any other club in its collection of 2006 talent. It r*ped the draft. How about some respect for that?

Your comments about Solomon are interesting, too. The club fought tooth & nail to stop him from going to Richmond, but have ultimately unloaded him anyway. Who's decision was it to keep Solomon & how come he suddenly became expendable? Would I be too far off the mark if I suggested that Sheedy made sure Solomon didn't get to Richmond?

When we stopped Solly from going to Tigerland he was a gun player and in his prime.

When he pushed him off to Freo his whole body was shot. His legs are absolutely buggered. Why do you think Freo were the only club interesting in him? Noone else is stupid enough.

Coaches are too emotionally involved to be making these decisions, that is why they are best left to the football department.

You dont pay Sheeds enough respect! I mean, hell.... we got rid of Henno last year didnt we!!!

 

[Ari]

Before I start, I'm not backing up or agreeing with anything mediumsizered said and i'm not arguing with what you've posted ...but again I think your still not understanding that the whole 'Brisbane wouldn't allow Mal a modified schedule to work on his foundation' story has only ever been suggested by the media. Brisbane have flat out said that it never came up and even claim that they broached the subject with him and he said it had nothing to do with his retirement...and if you choose not to believe the club...Mal himself has never suggested that he asked the club for any time off or a modified schedule.

We can keep talking about how E'don has accommodated Mal's outside interests but there's been nothing said that suggest that Brisbane weren't willing to do it. Now, i'm not casting dispertions on the player...honestly maybe he just wanted out of the club or the city (and that's fair enough), but to keep hinting that Brisbane were not willing to offer a compromise to a club champion is just ignoring what's actually been said by those involved.

So basically i'm not sure how you can keep pushing this angle that has been flatly denied by one party and not even suggested by the other as the absolute truth.

You might want to look at that. One of the core reasons Mal has left Brisbane is because they wouldnt meet his training and off-field requirements. Essendon could. He himself has quoted it.

 

[Longy413]

Before I start, I'm not backing up or agreeing with anything mediumsizered said and i'm not arguing with what you've posted ...but again I think your still not understanding that the whole 'Brisbane wouldn't allow Mal a modified schedule to work on his foundation' story has only ever been suggested by the media.

Blah, blah, blah...

Have another read of what I wrote.

I never said he asked Brisbane and Brisbane said no. I never hinted at anything.

All I did was highlight on of the reasons he came to Essendon. Now I'm sure you remember this happened well after he retired.

The only time I mentioned Brisbane was to say Essendon had a different training schedule. I never once mentioned Brisbane not being willing to accomodate Michael, just alluded to the fact that Michael was able to reconsider his retirement and come to Essendon because of our training format.

Perhaps it's best to get that chip off your shoulder, because not once did I have a crack at Brisbane FC or imply they did or didn't do anything. I spoke purely of Essendon FC.

 

[Jex]

...the whole 'Brisbane wouldn't allow Mal a modified schedule to work on his foundation' story has only ever been suggested by the media. Brisbane have flat out said that it never came up and even claim that they broached the subject with him and he said it had nothing to do with his retirement...and if you choose not to believe the club...Mal himself has never suggested that he asked the club for any time off or a modified schedule.

Michael yet to decide if he has time for football

September 15, 2006

BRISBANE Lions key defender Mal Michael is about to choose between three life possibilities: a move south, remaining in Brisbane or retirement.

Michael yesterday confirmed each of these options was under consideration, saying a decision on his future would be reached by grand final week.

Michael, who is heading to Papua New Guinea before coming to Melbourne for a few days, expects to discuss his future with the Lions upon his return.

Michael said there was a chance he would seek to continue his career in either Melbourne or Sydney. Melbourne clubs have been told that Michael's preference is to play in Melbourne or retire, but, as a contracted player, the former would require Brisbane either trading or delisting the star full-back.

"It's not 100 per cent correct, but there is a chance that I will have to move to Melbourne or Sydney, just for a logistic point of view," he said.

Michael, 29, has struggled to come to terms with the commitment required for league football and will now work out whether he still has the time for football.

Brisbane coach Leigh Matthews has indicated it would not be feasible for Michael to become a part-time player.

"Just over the next two or three weeks, I'm working at time management, if I can play on next year," Michael said.

Michael said there were a number of factors to consider in his decision. "That's what's made it difficult for me when people ask what I'm doing next year."

JAKE NIALL


This article doesn't quote Matthews directly, but it does reference something he said in a press conference. So perhaps without discussing the matter directly with Mal, Lethal did indicate (through the media) what he thought of Mal having a modified training schedule or becoming a "part-time" player.

 

[wazzabp]

Sheedy didn't want Solomon go to the Tigers. Solomon was playing consistenty great footy at the time and all the Tigers offered in exchange was the very average Ray Hall.

 

[Snuka]

You might want to look at that. One of the core reasons Mal has left Brisbane is because they wouldnt meet his training and off-field requirements. Essendon could. He himself has quoted it.

Yet Brisbane tell us that he never even brought it up.

 

[Snuka]

Have another read of what I wrote.

I never said he asked Brisbane and Brisbane said no. I never hinted at anything.

All I did was highlight on of the reasons he came to Essendon. Now I'm sure you remember this happened well after he retired.

The only time I mentioned Brisbane was to say Essendon had a different training schedule. I never once mentioned Brisbane not being willing to accomodate Michael, just alluded to the fact that Michael was able to reconsider his retirement and come to Essendon because of our training format.

Perhaps it's best to get that chip off your shoulder, because not once did I have a crack at Brisbane FC or imply they did or didn't do anything. I spoke purely of Essendon FC.

Another E'don supporter telling me to get over it yet this thread was bumped by a Bomber. No chip here, and I would of thought the reason he went to E'don was that they were the team to asked him and the team in the best position to get him.

 

[Snuka]

This article doesn't quote Matthews directly, but it does reference something he said in a press conference. So perhaps without discussing the matter directly with Mal, Lethal did indicate (through the media) what he thought of Mal having a modified training schedule or becoming a "part-time" player.

But then Brisbane have told us that after they heard this stuff in the media they approached Mal and he said it wasn't an issue. And Mal is still not a part-time player at the Bombers.

 

[Longy413]

Another E'don supporter telling me to get over it yet this thread was bumped by a Bomber. No chip here, and I would of thought the reason he went to E'don was that they were the team to asked him and the team in the best position to get him.

You clearly do have a chip when you're picking at arguements that aren't even there. You clearly do have a chip when you obviously can't read through a post for what it is before replying to it. You put words in my mouth, twice. Either you do have a chip or you struggle with comprehension.

Again you have gone off with a half-baked reply when I clearly said our training structure was among the reasons he came to Essendon. Not the only reason.

Essendon weren't the only team that talked to him, just the first.

You would have thought? I think the problem is, you don't think.

 

[Grimreepah]

You clearly do have a chip when you're picking at arguements that aren't even there. You clearly do have a chip when you obviously can't read through a post for what it is before replying to it. You put words in my mouth, twice. Either you do have a chip or you struggle with comprehension.

Again you have gone off with a half-baked reply when I clearly said our training structure was among the reasons he came to Essendon. Not the only reason.

Essendon weren't the only team that talked to him, just the first.

You would have thought? I think the problem is, you don't think.

Why are you getting so narky? If you think Snuka misunderstood your post, just say so without being a twat. Look through Snuka's posts and you'll find he has been very level headed over the issue.

 

[Snuka]

You clearly do have a chip when you're picking at arguements that aren't even there. You clearly do have a chip when you obviously can't read through a post for what it is before replying to it. You put words in my mouth, twice. Either you do have a chip or you struggle with comprehension.

Again you have gone off with a half-baked reply when I clearly said our training structure was among the reasons he came to Essendon. Not the only reason.

Essendon weren't the only team that talked to him, just the first.

You would have thought? I think the problem is, you don't think.

Spot on! And I disagree. Training had nothing to do with it.

 

[Longy413]

Why are you getting so narky? If you think Snuka misunderstood your post, just say so without being a twat. Look through Snuka's posts and you'll find he has been very level headed over the issue.

The first time I gave him the benefit of the doubt, the second time I lost patience.

There wasn't much to understand. I never mentioned anything about Brisbane in my post. Yet he suggested that I had incorrectly made claims about the dealings Brisbane did/didn't have with Mal.

When I explained that and in reply he still ignored the point I made. That's okay, people can look after their own agenda and passion is great. Just don't reply to my post when you do it. I don't like having words put in my mouth.

 

[Longy413]

Spot on! And I disagree. Training had nothing to do with it.

If Essendon trained everyday, you think Mal would have played?

Interesting, when Mal himself said that Essendon's training schedule suited him perfectly and allowed him to pursue a life outside football. It was just about the first comment he made in his very first press conference at the club.

 

[Snuka]

If Essendon trained everyday, you think Mal would have played?

Interesting, when Mal himself said that Essendon's training schedule suited him perfectly and allowed him to pursue a life outside football. It was just about the first comment he made in his very first press conference at the club.

Who knows...hard to know what his thoughts are if the Lions offered to discuss a modified schedule and he said it wasn't an issue. This is the quote from Leigh...

I asked Mal if he had any interest in playing anywhere else and whether this ‘reduced training schedule’ I kept hearing about was something we should discuss. Mal said neither of those things were an issue because he intended to spend one week in every three in Papua New Guinea. This clearly makes it impossible to play professional footy on any basis. It sticks in my memory that Mal said he had a ‘once in a lifetime’ business opportunity over there.

You've got to agree that Mal would never get that 1 week in every 3 at any club. He changed his mind fair enough, but I keep seeing this same misconception brought up...that Mal's retirement and subsequent move to the Bomber's had anything to do with Brisbane's schedule or unwillingness to compromise.

 

[Longy413]

You've got to agree that Mal would never get that 1 week in every 3 at any club. He changed his mind fair enough, but I keep seeing this same misconception brought up...that Mal's retirement and subsequent move to the Bomber's had anything to do with Brisbane's schedule or unwillingness to compromise.

And that's exactly why I didn't comment on what Brisbane have/haven't done. Because I don't know, nor do I care.

The only comment I made on training schedules is that Essendon's is different to Brisbane's (it is) and that Essendon's is a better fit for Mal (he said it is).

 

[Ted Ed Fred]

Mal = The Big Q's bunny. Can't wait till we play Essendon again