Covid-19 Mandatory vaccines

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Pie eyed

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We should be doing this here.
Hard to bill un-vaccinated patients when you have un-vaccinated cops, ambos and medical staff all the way down the line.

Gooses and ganders.

Unless a person has a valid reason to not be vaccinated. ("sky fairy said no" not a valid reason) then no job where you come into any contact with the vulnerable.
That would cover all emergency services, medical and psychiatric care, aged care, child care etc.
I have no issue with anyone being un-vaxxed in a mining, construction, retail etc etc situation.

Apart from the fact that having a portion of the population un-vaccinated will assist in a controlled spread, necessary for evolving immune response, it gives an indicator of the how virulent the virus mutations may be.

If everyone who is un-vaccinated starts dying en masse then we know we have a major issue and can respond.
 

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Both the NSW and Victorian governments have mandated that all workers who can't work from home must be vaccinated for Covid-19.

On the advice of our public health team, all workers – in Melbourne and regional Victoria – on the Authorised Worker list will require their first COVID-19 vaccine dose by Friday, 15 October in order to continue working onsite. They will need to be fully vaccinated by 26 November.​

Has this advice from Victoria's public health been released?

The Federal government has stated that the vaccine will not be mandatory apart from residential aged care workers and quarantine workers. NSW has informally indicated the requirement could be a temporary measure, three or four weeks, designed to encourage vaccine uptake. It's not clear how long these provisions might be applied in Victoria.

This is sure to be tested in court in the coming weeks. Are these measures justified by health data? Are they a violation of human rights?

The Full Bench of the Fair Work Commission discussed many of the issues and found, by a two to one verdict, that it was lawful in certain circumstances to dismiss people who refuse to be vaccinated.

The dissenting view by Deputy President Lyndall Dean likened mandatory vaccinations to “medical apartheid” and found that mandatory COVID vaccinations cannot be justified in almost every workplace in Australia.
 

Chief

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American labour org says you wouldn’t win a case against mandatory vaccination:

 

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Michael Corleone

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American labour org says you wouldn’t win a case against mandatory vaccination:

Quite clear why no one is a member of a union any more.
 

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American labour org says you wouldn’t win a case against mandatory vaccination:

There's not much detail there and it's from an overseas jurisdiction (Canada not America).

The Australian Fair Work case is more relevant, though some of it is specific to the individual plaintiff. There was a strong difference of opinion between the two commissioners who rejected the claim for unfair dismissal and the dissenting verdict.
 

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It's unclear exactly what the rationale of the vaccine mandate is.

Is it a short term measure to boost vaccine uptake so the % targets of the rollout can be achieved ASAP? This appears to be case in NSW. In which case this could be achieved by incentives rather than depriving people of their employment.

Is it to protect the vaccinated from the non-vaccinated? This would seem strange given the rationale for vaccine rollout is based on that they offer strong protection.

Is it to protect the non-vaccinated? By now, everyone should have had the opportunity to get vaccinated if they wish to, and apart from a small number of people it is a free choice. As the Prime Minister stated “people make their own decisions about their own health and their own bodies. That’s why we don’t have mandatory vaccination in relation to the general population”. We don't impose heavy sanctions on those who choose to smoke, drink heavily, or eat themselves to obesity. Also, the mandates are being imposed on the working population age groups which are at low risk from the virus.

Is it to protect health services? This could be counterproductive given that many health workers remain non-vaccinated and would have to drop out of the workforce.
 

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There's a couple of legal actions been launched.

The first Victorian legal challenge to the COVID-19 vaccine mandate for teachers has been issued in court. Self-represented casual relief teacher Belinda Cetnar and horticulturalist Jack Cetnar have gone to the Supreme Court to argue the no jab, no work policy is not legally or ethically justified, undermines the rule of law and is inconsistent with their human rights.

Seven Queensland Police Service (QPS) employees, including five serving police officers, are seeking a court order to invalidate the direction and stop it from being enforced. In the Supreme Court action filed from the seven employees, they are seeking a judicial review of the Commissioner's direction, alleging it breaches the rules of natural justice, human rights and anti-discrimination laws.
 

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projectv

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Is it to protect health services? This could be counterproductive given that many health workers remain non-vaccinated and would have to drop out of the workforce.
I'd say it's largely to protect health services.

The industry as a whole will give a big fat middle finger to the people who leave due to not getting vaccinated.

Scott Morrison announced international travel to resume in November, bet you that includes visa's for health care workers. Vaccinated ones of course.
 

Taylor

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But why does this legal advice show why unions are losing members?
The strength and value of unions has always found it's base in the dismissing of existing legal framework to demand a better outcome for their members.

Your position on this might be different if there was a law signed in that allowed employers to require their staff to work an extra 10 hours a week unpaid when the business was declared in financial trouble - this declaration also protects the business from paying staff entitlements they are owed and allowing the business to dismiss staff who aren't on board with the team to try and dig out of their financial issue.

The union says "well that's the law, oh well"

For what it's worth I think businesses have been trying to lean on the federal government for a while to get them to bring in a mandatory vaccine, but they don't want to wear that. The businesses have been pushing it because the state governments hold the threat of lockdown and capacity limits over their business.

Implementing the framework to invalidate members of society for not consenting to a medical procedure won't ever lead to anything unexpected.
 

Chief

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dismissing of existing legal framework to demand a better outcome for their members.

Your position on this might be different if there was a law signed in that allowed employers to require their staff to work an extra 10 hours a week unpaid when the business was declared in financial trouble
I didn't see anything in there that said they would or would not challenge the law.

Your example is nothing at all like the pandemic, so my opposition to something like that would be consistent.

invalidate members of society
Pretty dramatic.
 

Taylor

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I didn't see anything in there that said they would or would not challenge the law.

Your example is nothing at all like the pandemic, so my opposition to something like that would be consistent.


Pretty dramatic.
The pandemic has allowed the removal of what would have been a freedom of personal choice for the benefit of the big machine, many of them in fact.

Does someone need to require to you submit to a prostate examination before you draw a line? Especially when we are talking about a vaccine which is failing to protect a health system which was failing prior to the pandemic and now those people who created that situation are digging us out in a way that isn't fixing the primary issue.

But it is creating a politically useful subclass of citizens that can wear the burden of the failure.
 

Chief

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The pandemic has allowed the removal of what would have been a freedom of personal choice for the benefit of the big machine, many of them in fact.
I’m sure it has. Unfortunately that freedom of choice is also killing people.

I don’t support blanket mandates for employees, but sorry there are some jobs that require vaccination now. No question.
 

LiquidCrow

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There’s already precedent in Victoria, with flu vaccinations being mandatory for healthcare workers in pre-Covid times.

 

Pancakes

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There's a couple of legal actions been launched.

The first Victorian legal challenge to the COVID-19 vaccine mandate for teachers has been issued in court. Self-represented casual relief teacher Belinda Cetnar and horticulturalist Jack Cetnar have gone to the Supreme Court to argue the no jab, no work policy is not legally or ethically justified, undermines the rule of law and is inconsistent with their human rights.
The government would love this case being the first one.
These clowns are self represented, and have almost zero chance of winning their case. After this precedence will be set and future ruling judges can just fall back on the decision in this case.

If the first case was a actual case with an actual legal team with resources behind them they may have stood a chance, but these two are giving the government exactly what they would want.
 

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The Liberal member for Monash, Russell Broadbent, will not be able travel to his electorate and will be locked out of his ministerial offices as he is not vaccinated. Parliament’s rules for operating virtually require MPs to use secure video links from their offices, not their homes. Effectively this means that Daniel Andrews has passed laws that prevent an elected Federal member participating in Parliament.

 

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