Covid-19 Welcome to Freedom

[owen87]

i’m in no toxic facebook groups especially about sh*t idc about. you’ve missed your one shot the real answer is all that weed after a hard day of being a tradie.

i’ll hold off till the last minute and i dunno how my choice not to get vaxxed till it actually impacts my life or livelihood is a problem for self righteous people like yourself? i don’t even get why you people bother wasting your time on people like me who’ve conceded they’re going to lie down with dogs and hope not to catch fleas, (in this case altering side effects). It happens.

Simple answer?

Go talk to your Doctor. Not your tradie mates. Not social media. Not family or friends who aren't qualified. Not posters on BigFooty.

Or, as the HR lawyer at work put it so eloquently;

You should confer with a doctor who is permitted to engage in the practice of medicine in Australia if you have any concerns about receiving COVID vaccination.

Millions of Australians have had these vaccinations, they're recommended by the regulatory body that assesses these things for safety (TGA), and medical professionals. They're safe and effective.

 

[owen87]

That's all fine. Informed consent is good.

But mandatory vaccines?

I wasn't replying to you.

What's your question, specifically, you've simply said two words with a question mark.

 

[Crankyhawk]

No, that is incorrect. 1,513 over 80s that died had tested +ve - described as 'Covid death'. Then they extrapolated to a per 100,000 figure of all the over 80s who tested +ve. Divide that number by 1,000 to get the percent (per 100) case fatality rate. 1.5%

If, for example, 2% in the over 80s population had tested +ve then the Covid fatality rate for the whole of the 80s group would be 0.03%. Or to describe it another way, the population of over 80s in the UK is about 4 million. The official figures show that 1,513 of them died from Covid - that is 0.038% of the whole over 80s population.

Then explain the Google available covid death and case rates shown to you earlier which have a 3% death rate.
What your figures are telling you is that 1.5% of the over 80s population died of covid.

Edit here is the same uk website telling you there were many more than 1500 covid deaths in the over 80s in UK

COVID-19 confirmed deaths in England (to 31 January 2021): report

www.gov.uk

 

[Opine]

the rules haven't changed much in terms of the precautionary quarantine (it still exists, its just 7 days vs 14 in Vic if you don't live with the positive)

edit - the outcomes may be different; it would be interesting to know the double vaccination rate in that workplace.

I’m not sure of the double vax rate stats. Luckily, we’ve both been double vaccinated for over 4 months.

 

[Opine]

That's all fine. Informed consent is good.

But mandatory vaccines?

It’s not just about the individual being vaccinated. IINM, greater the number of unvaccinated likewise increases possibility of new mutations. I think that’s the issue.

 

[Jibroni]

It’s not just about the individual being vaccinated. IINM, greater the number of unvaccinated likewise increases possibility of new mutations. I think that’s the issue.

I've heard the opposite from the Vaccines.

At the end of the day why can't it simply be a personal choice?

Or if your not vaccinated and contract COVID you don't get treated by a GP or in a Hospital?

 

[Chief]

At the end of the day why can't it simply be a personal choice?

Or if your not vaccinated and contract COVID you don't get treated by a GP or in a Hospital?

Your personal choice harms public health.

Not treating you harms public health. You’re walking around with an untreated disease, giving to others, maybe brewing up a variant.

 

[Crankyhawk]

I've heard the opposite from the Vaccines.

At the end of the day why can't it simply be a personal choice?

Or if your not vaccinated and contract COVID you don't get treated by a GP or in a Hospital?

I am hearing the last point a lot.
The problem is that we are not allowed to blanket refuse treatment. We can make an individual decision that hospitalisation will not assist a patient long term trajectory (applies for some mental health issues where forced hospitalisation increases trauma, or dependence; and for substance use issues when hospital has no rehabilitation expertise; or for chronic homelessness) but covid is clearly a medical issue which benefits from hospitalisation and as such we (doctors) cannot refuse to treat.

 

[Crankyhawk]

That's blatantly not true. The vast majority of non-vaccinated for Covid-19 are perfectly healthy people.

The vast majority of hospitalisation are also unvaccinated in Australia. And have higher disease severity

 

[Chief]

What evidence do you have for that?

The whole of genetic science is a good start. Expand from there.

 

[Chief]

That's blatantly not true. The vast majority of non-vaccinated for Covid-19 are perfectly healthy people.

It’s blatantly true.

As an unvaccinated person you are walking around with a high risk of becoming a carrier of the disease.

As a person who is untreated you are walking around transmitting the disease.

 

[Opine]

What evidence do you have for that?

Given the dramatic increase in infections since this variant emerged, coupled with large number of documented deaths and related complications since whole epidemic began: the burden of displacing a starting presumption that everyone should be vaccinated falls on those trying to minimise importance of vaccination. Not the other way around. So, I ask you, what reliable evidence do you have to advance a position contrary to mandatory vaccination? it better be bloody good, because we’re essentially talking about life, suffering and death scenarios.

 

[Opine]

I've heard the opposite from the Vaccines.

At the end of the day why can't it simply be a personal choice?

Or if your not vaccinated and contract COVID you don't get treated by a GP or in a Hospital?

As the number of unvaccinated increases, the ability for those infected to obtain treatment as per your last sentence diminishes; medical treatment and related facilities aren’t infinitely available. It’s been reported that other medical procedures have been put on hold to accomodate increases in COVID related hospital admissions. We owe it to each other to do our part not to unnecessarily burden our medical system.

 

[Lethality]

It's a bit disturbing how some commentators call vaccination a choice, when in reality most people don't have a choice.

 

[Chief]

COVID-19 VACCINATION POLICY FOR AFL AND AFLW PLAYERS
AND FOOTBALL PROGRAM STAFF

The AFL, in conjunction with the AFLPA, has today released its COVID-19 vaccination policy for all AFL and AFLW players and Football Program Staff.

In general terms, the Policy will require all AFL and AFLW players and Football Program Staff to be vaccinated in advance of the start of the AFL and AFLW seasons according to a progressive schedule.

The Policy has been introduced following an extensive education program across the clubs and industry in regard to COVID-19 vaccinations and the AFL will continue to work with the AFLPA to provide all players and staff further support and guidance through the evolving situation.

The Policy reflects the AFL’s strongly held view that as the governing body of the sport, we share responsibility to address the risk of exposure to COVID-19 of our Players and Football Program Staff, and in delivering upon this responsibility, TGA approved vaccines offer the best possible protection in keeping our people safe, healthy and together.

Further, it provides our sport the opportunity to recover from the COVID-19 interruptions that have beset both the AFL and AFLW competitions in these past two years.

AFL Vaccination Requirements

The Policy strongly encourages all persons in the AFL industry to be vaccinated as soon as they are practicably able to be. The AFL acknowledges and thanks the industry for the levels of vaccination that have already been achieved.

To meet our objective of providing the best possible protection in keeping our people safe and healthy, the Policy requires all Players and Football Program to be progressively vaccinated according to a three-stage schedule:

• The First Stage is already in effect in Victoria by virtue of the Government’s Authorised Worker Vaccination Mandate and requires Players and Football Program Staff of Victorian Clubs to be vaccinated (first dose 22 October 2021 and fully vaccinated 26 November 2021) prior to being able to attend their Clubs to start or continue their pre-seasons.
• The Second Stage applies to all remaining AFLW Players and AFL Football Program Staff, and additionally the AFL Players and AFL Football Program Staff of the NSW Clubs, namely the Sydney Swans and Greater Western Sydney. This stage requires first vaccination dose by 19 November 2021 and to be fully vaccinated by 17 December 2021, in advance of likely scheduled practice matches and the AFLW season commencing in January 2022.
• The Third Stage requires all remaining AFL Players and AFL Football Program Staff (i.e. of Clubs in WA, SA and QLD) to receive a first dose by 21 January 2022 and to be fully vaccinated by 18 February 2022, in advance of likely scheduled practice matches in late February 2022 and commencement of the season in March 2022.

Under the Policy, the scheduled dates for the stages can change by agreement between the AFL and AFLPA if there are changes in relevant Government mandates or in the COVID-19 levels in relevant States.

Other changes to the Policy (including any extension of the term beyond the 2022 AFL and AFLW seasons) must also be agreed by the AFL and AFLPA. The Policy will be reviewed on an ongoing basis by the AFL and AFLPA jointly to assess the changing environment in relation to COVID-19 and vaccination in Australia.

The Policy establishes a process for the AFL’s consideration and (where appropriate) approval of medical exemptions using criteria similar to the Victorian Authorised Worker Vaccination Mandate.

The Policy will apply to new Players coming into the AFL and AFLW, including by the upcoming AFL Draft.

Player’s playing contracts and remuneration

Players and Football Program Staff that do not comply with the vaccination requirement that apply to them will not be able to attend Club or AFL premises including to train or play, absent a medical exemption approved by the AFL. In short, they will not be able to perform their contracted services for their Clubs.

Clubs will determine the action to be taken with respect to remuneration and employment status of Football Program Staff that do not comply with the Policy.

For Players who do not comply with the Policy and do not have an approved medical exemption, from the date at which a Player is no longer able to perform their contracted services, their Clubs can:

• Transfer the Player to the inactive player list (meaning the Player can be replaced) and pay the Player 25% of (for AFLW) their contracted salary or (for AFL) the CBA minimum base salary
• Keep the Player on their playing list (meaning the Player cannot be replaced) and pay the Player not less than 25% of (for AFLW) their contracted salary or (for AFL) 25% of the CBA minimum base salary
• Terminate the Player’s playing contract with the agreement of the Player
• Exercise any rights the Club may have at law to terminate the Player’s playing contract, but such rights are not to be exercised prior to 18 May 2022.

 

[Chief]

Then there's the inconvenient fact that vaccinated people are 'walking around transmitting the disease' to other fully vaccinated people, who can get sick and die.

At a far, far lower rate. That is the whole point of vaccination.

 

[Seeds]

Then there's the inconvenient fact that vaccinated people are 'walking around transmitting the disease' to other fully vaccinated people, who can get sick and die.

There was an outbreak in an Israeli hospital where a fully vaccinated patient infected 23 per cent of the patients and 10 per cent of the staff, even though 96 per cent of the people exposed were fully vaccinated. All staff were fully vaccinated and remained asymptomatic or with mild disease.​

​

Eight fully vaccinated patients became severely ill and five died, whereas the two unvaccinated patients had mild infections. As the authors of the study wrote, the outbreak ‘challenges the assumption that high universal vaccination rates will lead to herd immunity and prevent Covid-19 outbreaks’.​

Nosocomial outbreak caused by the SARS-CoV-2 Delta variant in a highly vaccinated population, Israel, July 2021

A nosocomial outbreak of SARS-CoV-2 Delta variant infected 42 patients, staff and family members; 39 were fully vaccinated. The attack rate was 10.6% (16/151) among exposed staff and reached 23.7% (23/97) among exposed patients in a highly vaccinated ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

This is where the anti vaxers show their lack of intelligence.

the vaccinated have around 75 percent less chance of catching the virus and over 50 percent less chance of passing it on if they do get it because their transmissable period is much shorter. but anti vaxers live in a simple world of you can get the virus or you cant and all else is equal. They dont have the brain capacity to understand differences in transmission rates.

anti vaxers also dont understand large numbers. A billion people have had the vaccine. far more then have actually caught the virus. There are going to be some cases where the vaccine doesnt work at all in a billion people or some dud batches of the vaccine are given. Finding a single (or even 500) example/s in a billion vaccine doses where a vaccinated person is a super spreader prooves absolutely nothing. But anti vaxers are too simple to understand that it prooves nothing. So they think they have a point.

 

[Seeds]

That's blatantly not true. The vast majority of non-vaccinated for Covid-19 are perfectly healthy people.

You get that point doesnt answer the question right?

the goal is not as low to just ensure the majority of people are healthy. Its to ensure 99.99 percent of people are healthy. Its also the goal to stop the emergence of both more deadly strains and strains which the vaccines dont work on.

 

[Seeds]

No.

'Ordinary passports' are about establishing personal identification when travelling overseas. Why would any competent government want to abandon that?

And vaccine passports are about stopping a global pandemic. Far more important then stopping people from entering a country simply for the sake of stopping them.

 

[Opine]

Europe has good data and is ahead of us on Coronavirus. From an Italian study -

the average age of death among the unvaccinated was 78, with those people having four pre-existing conditions on average.​

The article also states

the average age of death in the vaccinated was 85, and that on average each person had five underlying illnesses when they caught Covid​

So based on this data you could argue for a) strongly encouraging the elderly to get vaccinated and b) mandatory vaccinations for health and aged care workers. But it does not support mandatory vaccination for all workers of all ages. Most workers are in age groups that are not at significant risk from the virus. Their personal health choices should not deprive them of earning a living.

As for not burdening our health system, if you really wanted to make an impact you would ban tobacco products. Tobacco use is linked to more than 1 in 8 deaths in Australia.

Effects of tobacco products on our health system/s are, arguably, offset in major part by significant taxes imposed on each sale; and then passed on to States/Territories. Can we assume you’d be in favour of similar taxation imposed on the unvaccinated; for medical treatment, medication and any other reasonably related ancillaries?

Also, keep in mind that those who unreasonably resist being vaccinated, increase risk of harm to health workers who end up having to treat them post infection. While some continue to assert their freedom not to be vaccinated, health workers are already receiving 3rd dose boosters in prep for increased risk..

 

[Chief]

but strangely no calls to ban it

Are you mad? Just use your favourite search engine.

Call to ban cigarettes in Australia

A call to replace cigarettes with e-cigarettes has been made, following research showing thousands of lives could be saved.

www.hospitalhealth.com.au

 

[Opine]

…



You are basically telling me the vaccines that you want make mandatory don't provide protection. It makes no sense….

Insofar as vaccination efficacy is concerned, I don’t believe you’re really inferring my previous post in the way you’ve suggested (in bold above). What’s a reasonable inference?

 

[Opine]

Tax revenue from tobacco products is about 1/10 of the cost. We don't have a user pays public health system dependent on risk and cost of treatment. Also, how are you going to tax non-vaccinated people when they are deprived of their income?...

Do you acknowledge that AU taxation on tobacco products is significant?

Method/s of ensuring equitable distribution of related burdens is another issue into itself; for latter consideration

 

[Opine]

…

Health workers are not receiving booster shots for increased risk. It's because the efficacy rapidly wanes.

This isn’t entirely true. While all vaccines reduce in effectiveness over time, the various available vaccines have reportedly been tested for their effectiveness in reducing risk associated with emerging Delta and perhaps other variants. Accordingly, health workers are already receiving 3rd dozes.

 

[Harro59]

As always, Sweden provides an interesting contrast.

They barely have any rules around the virus, they just have a couple of recommendations.

Anyone with symptoms of Covid-19 should get tested then stay at home.​

​

If you are not fully vaccinated, if possible, keep a distance from other people and avoid close contact with people in risk groups and people who are aged 70 or over.​

That's it! No vaccine passports. No one is losing their job because they chose not to vax. No mandatory mask wearing. No limits on gathering in homes, bars or restaurants. No curfews. No movement limits. Schools are open. Soccer stadiums are full.

They are at similar levels of vaccinations to Australia. Sweden at 69.5%, Australia at 72.5%.

The outcome? Sweden has less cases and less fatalities than Australia. Even less than Victoria that has a much smaller population.

Are you sure about your info, last in checked Sweden had 1.7mil cases and 14k deaths.

Are you talking comparison by numbers or per capita?