Covid-19 Mandatory vaccines

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Pie eyed

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We should be doing this here.
Hard to bill un-vaccinated patients when you have un-vaccinated cops, ambos and medical staff all the way down the line.

Gooses and ganders.

Unless a person has a valid reason to not be vaccinated. ("sky fairy said no" not a valid reason) then no job where you come into any contact with the vulnerable.
That would cover all emergency services, medical and psychiatric care, aged care, child care etc.
I have no issue with anyone being un-vaxxed in a mining, construction, retail etc etc situation.

Apart from the fact that having a portion of the population un-vaccinated will assist in a controlled spread, necessary for evolving immune response, it gives an indicator of the how virulent the virus mutations may be.

If everyone who is un-vaccinated starts dying en masse then we know we have a major issue and can respond.
 

Opine

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You are basically telling me the vaccines that you want make mandatory don't provide protection. It makes no sense….
Insofar as vaccination efficacy is concerned, I don’t believe you’re really inferring my previous post in the way you’ve suggested (in bold above). What’s a reasonable inference?
 
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Opine

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Tax revenue from tobacco products is about 1/10 of the cost. We don't have a user pays public health system dependent on risk and cost of treatment. Also, how are you going to tax non-vaccinated people when they are deprived of their income?...
Do you acknowledge that AU taxation on tobacco products is significant?

Method/s of ensuring equitable distribution of related burdens is another issue into itself; for latter consideration
 

Opine

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Health workers are not receiving booster shots for increased risk. It's because the efficacy rapidly wanes.
This isn’t entirely true. While all vaccines reduce in effectiveness over time, the various available vaccines have reportedly been tested for their effectiveness in reducing risk associated with emerging Delta and perhaps other variants. Accordingly, health workers are already receiving 3rd dozes.
 

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sorted

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This isn’t entirely true. While all vaccines reduce in effectiveness over time, the various available vaccines have reportedly been tested for their effectiveness in reducing risk associated with emerging Delta and perhaps other variants. Accordingly, health workers are already receiving 3rd dozes.
From a video of undercover journalists talking to Pfizer employees.

Journalist : I had COVID. And I have monster immunity after eight months or so. I just got checked last month for antibodies.​
Chris Croce, Pfizer Senior Associate Scientist: I mean that's no worries. Same thing with my brother.​
Journalist : So should I get the vaccine?​
Chris Croce : Wait.​
Journalist : Until when?​
Chris Croce : If your immunity starts to wane, then get vaccinated.​
Journalist : So I'm well protected?​
Chris Croce: Yeah​
Journalist : Like as much as the vaccine.​
Chris Croce : Probably more.​
Journalist : How so? Like, how much more?​
Chris Croce : I mean. So when we came out with, let's see. so right now, we're seeing and increase in the Delta variant. Mostly not because of the variant. Because of immune...their...basically...their antibodies are waning. So they're still protected, but not have that 95% efficacy. It's more like 70%. So you're being - you’re protected most likely for longer since there was a natural response.​
 

sorted

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And vaccine passports are about stopping a global pandemic.
As always, Sweden provides an interesting contrast.

They barely have any rules around the virus, they just have a couple of recommendations.

Anyone with symptoms of Covid-19 should get tested then stay at home.​
If you are not fully vaccinated, if possible, keep a distance from other people and avoid close contact with people in risk groups and people who are aged 70 or over.​

That's it! No vaccine passports. No one is losing their job because they chose not to vax. No mandatory mask wearing. No limits on gathering in homes, bars or restaurants. No curfews. No movement limits. Schools are open. Soccer stadiums are full.

They are at similar levels of vaccinations to Australia. Sweden at 69.5%, Australia at 72.5%.

The outcome? Sweden has less cases and less fatalities than Australia. Even less than Victoria that has a much smaller population.
 

Harro59

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As always, Sweden provides an interesting contrast.

They barely have any rules around the virus, they just have a couple of recommendations.

Anyone with symptoms of Covid-19 should get tested then stay at home.​
If you are not fully vaccinated, if possible, keep a distance from other people and avoid close contact with people in risk groups and people who are aged 70 or over.​

That's it! No vaccine passports. No one is losing their job because they chose not to vax. No mandatory mask wearing. No limits on gathering in homes, bars or restaurants. No curfews. No movement limits. Schools are open. Soccer stadiums are full.

They are at similar levels of vaccinations to Australia. Sweden at 69.5%, Australia at 72.5%.

The outcome? Sweden has less cases and less fatalities than Australia. Even less than Victoria that has a much smaller population.
Are you sure about your info, last in checked Sweden had 1.7mil cases and 14k deaths.

Are you talking comparison by numbers or per capita?
 

Opine

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sorted , I’m having trouble following your position. You appear to be arguing against o/a benefit of vaccination, but then acknowledge high vax rate in Sweden as an element of that national’s strategy which you appear to laud. Are you pro vaccination?
 

Nuggs Bunny

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sorted , I’m having trouble following your position. You appear to be arguing against o/a benefit of vaccination, but then acknowledge high vax rate in Sweden as an element of that national’s strategy which you appear to laud. Are you pro vaccination?
His whole posting history on this board is a collection of contrarianism without a cause, good luck finding any positions underneath beyond incessantly challenging an authority.

Sweden's an interesting case. Lots of people talking about it in the July-October 2020 lockdown last year when Swedish cases were low and Victorians were living under Stage 4 restrictions. Lots of people talking about it now in 2021 when Sweden has re-opened fully while Victoria & NSW are taking their first, cautious steps out of another Stage 4 lockdown. But very, very few people were talking about it between November 2020 and July 2021 when Australia was largely back to normal while you couldn't buy alcohol after 8pm in Sweden.
 

Opine

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His whole posting history on this board is a collection of contrarianism without a cause, good luck finding any positions underneath beyond incessantly challenging an authority.

Sweden's an interesting case. Lots of people talking about it in the July-October 2020 lockdown last year when Swedish cases were low and Victorians were living under Stage 4 restrictions. Lots of people talking about it now in 2021 when Sweden has re-opened fully while Victoria & NSW are taking their first, cautious steps out of another Stage 4 lockdown. But very, very few people were talking about it between November 2020 and July 2021 when Australia was largely back to normal while you couldn't buy alcohol after 8pm in Sweden.
Yeah, I’ve been surprised by broad scope of Swedish Covid related info on AU media. ABC, Seven etc
 

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sorted

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sorted , I’m having trouble following your position. You appear to be arguing against o/a benefit of vaccination, but then acknowledge high vax rate in Sweden as an element of that national’s strategy which you appear to laud. Are you pro vaccination?
Sweden and Australia have similar vaccination rates. High vax rates are part of both country's strategy. The differences are with the measures used to bring that about - balanced against freedoms.

I highlighted Sweden's very minimal restrictions compared to Victoria - including no vaccine passports, and no one losing their job because they chose not to vax. There's also no mandatory mask wearing. No limits on gathering in homes, bars or restaurants. No curfews. No movement limits. Schools are open. Soccer stadiums are full.

But despite the minimal restrictions Sweden has a lower number of current cases and fatalities than Victoria.
 

Opine

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Sweden and Australia have similar vaccination rates. High vax rates are part of both country's strategy. The differences are with the measures used to bring that about - balanced against freedoms.

I there is nonhighlighted Sweden's very minimal restrictions compared to Victoria - including no vaccine passports, and no one losing their job because they chose not to vax. There's also no mandatory mask wearing. No limits on gathering in homes, bars or restaurants. No curfews. No movement limits. Schools are open. Soccer stadiums are full.

But despite the minimal restrictions Sweden has a lower number of current cases and fatalities than Victoria.
Sweden appears to have constitutionally safeguarded civil rights. Additionally, the European Convention for the Protection of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms has legal status in Sweden. In AU, unless specifically enacted locally, even AU ratified international instruments won’t have force other than in instances where there is ambiguity in interpreting some related instrument. In contrast (unlike rest of AU except one other State lsst time I looked) Vic has a Charter of Rights and Responsibilities but the freedoms it provides can be excluded by other Vic enactments. In short, during this pandemic, Sweden’s less intrusive interference with citizen freedoms of association, work, education etc may have been more-so result of regulatory limitations on power rather than merel governmental choice.

BTW, you didn’t answer my previous questions; 1) are you pro vaccination? 2) do you agree that tax on tobacco products is significant? :)
 
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Opine

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Has Dan just written his resignation with that?
Don't see how this can be blamed on Dan Andrews; unless background pressure which is highly doubtful. However, it's a clear example of why employees should check and understand what they're giving up to employers in employment agreements before agreeing to do so. I'm sick of seeing this sort of imbalance of power being willfully surrendered by employees for benefit of employers.
 

Pessimistic

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Don't see how this can be blamed on Dan Andrews; unless background pressure which is highly doubtful. However, it's a clear example of why employees should check and understand what they're giving up to employers in employment agreements before agreeing to do so. I'm sick of seeing this sort of imbalance of power being willfully surrendered by employees for benefit of employers.
dont have much time for anti-vaxxers but Dan and co keep demonstrating out their concerns over what I call ‘creeping fascism’

what was the public discussion and process on dans seemingly unilateral announcement, surely he’s not pretending we are still in a state of emergency where you can argue processes can be shortcut for the ‘common good’?

at some point if the Australian public don’t clip these peoples wings a bit, the end result won’t be pretty
 

Opine

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dont have much time for anti-vaxxers but Dan and co keep demonstrating out their concerns over what I call ‘creeping fascism’

what was the public discussion and process on dans seemingly unilateral announcement, surely he’s not pretending we are still in a state of emergency where you can argue processes can be shortcut for the ‘common good’?

at some point if the Australian public don’t clip these peoples wings a bit, the end result won’t be pretty
I’m not a fan of DA either, but this isn’t his doing. Although would like to see him come out in support of that journo.

There’s a growing argument for need to subject contracting away of fundamental freedoms in work agreements to greater levels of independent informed consent, and perhaps even a need for employees contracting away such freedoms to be objectively better off.


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Pessimistic

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I’m not a fan of DA either, but this isn’t his doing. Although I’d like to see him come out in support of that journo.

There’s a growing argument for need to subject contracting away of fundamental freedoms in work agreements to greater levels of independently informed consent, and perhaps even a need for employees contracting away such freedoms to be objectively better off.


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so Dan didn’t say ‘instead of locking people in, we’re locking people out’? Think about how acceptable that would have been in 2019. Not at all.

the curfew was unneccesary and he’s well on his way to losing me with this.

I propose even the vaccinated reject apps QR code’s etc and Cary their credit card sized handwritten vacc record.

that was enough for previous generations. Don’t participate in anything which enables such outrageous behaviour
 

sorted

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Sweden appears to have constitutionally safeguarded civil rights. Additionally, the European Convention for the Protection of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms has legal status in Sweden. In AU, unless specifically enacted locally, even AU ratified international instruments won’t have force other than in instances where there is ambiguity in interpreting some related instrument. In contrast (unlike rest of AU except one other State lsst time I looked) Vic has a Charter of Rights and Responsibilities but the freedoms it provides can be excluded by other Vic enactments. In short, during this pandemic, Sweden’s less intrusive interference with citizen freedoms of association, work, education etc may have been more-so result of regulatory limitations on power rather than merel governmental choice.
I wonder if you are missing the point? Sweden has had much less impositions on freedoms but they have arrived in a better place than Australia, Victoria in particular.

BTW, you didn’t answer my previous questions; 1) are you pro vaccination?
I have addressed this previously.

I am in favour of vaccination for the usual range of childhood diseases. I have previously highlighted beneficial side effects where vaccination for one disease can give protection against another.

With Covid-19 I think it's sensible to strongly recommend the vaccine for the elderly, with mandatory for aged care and health workers. Make it available for all others who want to get it - but I don't see the rationale to have it mandatory for everyone.

It's clear that the vaccines don't prevent infections and often don't prevent serious illness. There needs to be good quality evaluations of treatments, but the research is biased against cheap and proven safe existing drugs by the huge financials involved.
 

Opine

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so Dan didn’t say ‘instead of locking people in, we’re locking people out’? Think about how acceptable that would have been in 2019. Not at all.

the curfew was unneccesary and he’s well on his way to losing me with this.

I propose even the vaccinated reject apps QR code’s etc and Cary their credit card sized handwritten vacc record.

that was enough for previous generations. Don’t participate in anything which enables such outrageous behaviour
Agreed, curfew was overkill. Am ok with mandating no jab no job.

I’m more annoyed at his reported attempt to “govern from the grave”; but that’s an issue for next election.
Suffice to say I appreciated your concerns.


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