Covid-19 Mandatory vaccines

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TheGreatBarryB

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Yep, but how much more? 10%? 20%? Is that worth such regulation on movement and attendance at public venues? Its a balancing act imo. Like I said, if the vaccine was a scientific miracle that gave you a 80 or 90% less chance of passing it on, then yeah mandates become far more palatable.

Some kids have gotten quite sick from it no doubt, very few have died though and they're in the safest age bracket in terms of the stats.



Yep, all but guaranteed 5 figures, hopefully on the lower end. Its a pandemic. Businesses would have to make their own decision about whether to open in that environment, but I doubt they universally wouldn't be. Pretty sure a lot of the ones who have already gone to the wall this year would have been open given the option, for example.

Is that life cost worth it for a return to a 'normal' society? Again, last year I would have said no, 12 months on and another year into this sh*t I probably say yes.



Probably, I'm honestly not in the best mental space and haven't been for awhile now. Personally know a few families who are doing even worse, its probably influencing my thoughts somewhat.
Appreciate honest responses, hope things pick up for you
 

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Evolved1

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The response there is whether you think things like drink driving laws are infringing on personal responsibility.

The things we do affect other people.
I view the vaccine more like a seatbelt. I wear a seatbelt for my own protection. If the driver of the vehicle who hits me in a head-on collision isn't wearing a seatbelt, that's their problem.

The argument that unvaccinated people take up more of our limited hospital resources is probably the only valid one for mandatory vaccination afaic.
 

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imadodgyumpire

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So the anti mandatory vaxxers on here are you prepared to open up with no vaccines? Also prepared to have no one take polio, whooping cough, tb, smallpox etc etc? I mean what if everyone thought the same way ..”can’t force me to vax”? Or are you happy to say no and have you and family protected from everyone getting vaxxed?
Hey GG.exe, check this out. I think I'm one of the guys TGBB is indirectly asking the question to. This time it's a serious subject!

I cbf making my point about it now though, as I'm using the internet for recreation atm.

But I suppose very soon, I'll be posting itt in the next few days.
 

sorted

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The response there is whether you think things like drink driving laws are infringing on personal responsibility.

The things we do affect other people.
Except in this case you don't have to be drunk at the wheel to have your liberties deprived. Or have an infectious disease.

The 'crime' is that you might be perfectly healthy but more likely to have an infectious disease. I thought this sort of thing was worked out when gays were discriminated against because they might transmit HIV?
 

Seeds

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I guess personally for me the difference between covid vaccine and the others you mention are these
  • Development time - polio, whooping cough etc are all old, completely tested, known and mapped vaccines. Covid vax simply isn't, by definition it can't be with a 12 month or so development time. Long term side effects are guesstimates at this stage. Having said that, on available data I believe they're safe enough, and have been vaxed myself.
  • Societal overreach, if I can put it that way. The kids innoculations are for things that are very serious for their age group, and are required so they can attend school, day care etc. and mix with other kids - all reasonable and fair. But needing a covid vax to attend a pub, restaurant, sporting event or concert? Or go to a supermarket (happening in France)?. Nah, step too far imo.
End of the day I'm a personal choice and personal responsibility kinda guy I guess ie. you do you, get the vaccine if you'd like that additional protection, and the majority will. But it shouldn't be required to participate in day to day society.

As to your specific question of would I be happy to open up with no vaccine? Tough one, probably no last year, probably yes this year. I think its reached a tipping point (in Victoria anyway, can't speak for the rest of the country) where the safety protocols are causing more harm than they're preventing - definitely effecting more people than covid would be likely to anyway. Lucky we do have a vaccine at this point, and are on the path to opening up.
The protection of vaccines isnt just for yourself. Its for others. For people who medically cant get them and to minimise harm to those who have as vaccines arent perfect. The decision you make in regards to vaccines is not personal. It impacts the community whether you like it or not. Its a fact.

if people want to go live like hermits in the bush or in their bedrooms permanently then its perfectly fine for them not to get vaccinated as for those people it Is solely a personal decision.

for people who want to live in society well you make the personal decision to live there and have to live with the responsibility. In a covid world that means you must get vaccinated. your decision to live in a community is a decision to get vaccinated. Just like your decision to drive on public roads is a decision to abide by the road laws. You must do it to minimise the risk to everyone else.
 

Seeds

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Except in this case you don't have to be drunk at the wheel to have your liberties deprived. Or have an infectious disease.

The 'crime' is that you might be perfectly healthy but more likely to have an infectious disease. I thought this sort of thing was worked out when gays were discriminated against because they might transmit HIV?
two massive differences Between gay people in the 80s and unvaccinated people today.

hiv wasnt transmissable by just standing next to an infected person when they breathed.

being gay wasnt a choice. choosing not to take a vaccine is a choice.
 

bourbons

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The protection of vaccines isnt just for yourself. Its for others. For people who medically cant get them and to minimise harm to those who have as vaccines arent perfect. The decision you make in regards to vaccines is not personal. It impacts the community whether you like it or not. Its a fact.

if people want to go live like hermits in the bush or in their bedrooms permanently then its perfectly fine for them not to get vaccinated as for those people it Is solely a personal decision.

for people who want to live in society well you make the personal decision to live there and have to live with the responsibility. In a covid world that means you must get vaccinated. your decision to live in a community is a decision to get vaccinated. Just like your decision to drive on public roads is a decision to abide by the road laws. You must do it to minimise the risk to everyone else.
Yep, totally get that argument, pretty much why I got vaxed myself (although specifically ensuring risk was as low as possible for my parents was in there too, so maybe a touch more selfish in motivation).

It would just be good to know how much we're minimising risk to everyone else, when the trade-off is looking like being restrictions on public venues and movement. Suspect that can't be accurately quantified though.
 

Seeds

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Queensland mayor now telling it like it is. Its not a choice to get vaccinated. Its your duty.


You are forcing constriants on your fellow citizens if you do not get vaccinated who will have to go back into lockdown.

the unvaccinated are denying others their human rights. This must stop.
 

Herne Hill Hammer

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On Tuesday the WA government mandated full vaccination for all mining/oil/gas sector workers by 01.01.2022 who need to work on sites or visit them.

Today my employer franked that decision by mandating that by 31.01.2022 if you're not fully vaccinated then you will no longer be allowed into one of their work sites, mine or office, anywhere in the country.

The strange thing I find with the work mandate is that outside of medical exemptions, there are three others. government officials (the same officials that have mandated that we have to have it, they don't have to), outside emergency services and members of traditional owner groups who are not employees or contactors of the company (I find this one funny as throughout this pandemic, all we've heard is about the poor vulnerable Aboriginals and how we need to get vaccinated to protect them and we need to vaccinate them too, yet here we are giving them an exemption for no other reason than they're Aboriginal). This bit isn't having a go at the Indigenous, it's having a go at the rule makers.
 

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kranky al

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Interesting:



There are few situations where someone can’t have a COVID vaccine for medical reasons. The criteria to receive a permanent medical exemption are very narrow and rarely required.

The only criteria are:

  • anaphylaxis following a previous dose of a COVID vaccine
  • or previous anaphylaxis to any component of a COVID vaccine.
For live vaccines, such the measles, mumps, and rubella (MMR) and varicella vaccines, people who are significantly immunocompromised can get a permanent medical exemption. But this isn’t relevant for COVID vaccines because they’re not live vaccines.
My wife is immuno compromised. Her specialist has recommended she wait for now to see what data comes out of other jurisdictions with people in the same boat as her.
 

sorted

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two massive differences Between gay people in the 80s and unvaccinated people today.

hiv wasnt transmissable by just standing next to an infected person when they breathed.

being gay wasnt a choice. choosing not to take a vaccine is a choice.
But it's still discrimination based on the small chance that someone might be infected.

And you have to factor in the other components. Vaccinated people can be infected and infect someone just standing next to them when they breathed - or sneezed. If the vaccines work how are the vaccinated at risk from the non-vaccinated?

Choosing not to take the vaccine is not really a choice if your livelihood is taken away from you for not having it.
 

Seeds

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But it's still discrimination based on the small chance that someone might be infected.

And you have to factor in the other components. Vaccinated people can be infected and infect someone just standing next to them when they breathed - or sneezed. If the vaccines work how are the vaccinated at risk from the non-vaccinated?

Choosing not to take the vaccine is not really a choice if your livelihood is taken away from you for not having it.
Nothing wrong with discrimination. Its only unjust or irrelevant discrimination that is wrong.

we discriminate against people who dont have a drivers license from driving. We descriminate against people who perform poorly at school from getting into uni. We descriminate against men from being strippers at a stripper club for straight men. just descrimination is fine. Encouraged in fact.

if hiv was as infectious as covid and their was an asympotmatic period of infectiousness then i would argue that back in the eighties it may of been reasonable for a temporary period of time to lock down all gay people to prevent infection even if they didnt have the virus.

ofcourse it wouldnt of remained primarily in gay people for very long if it was as highly infectious making the policy all a bit mute. The reason it was primarily in gay people for the early years was because it was primarily transmissable through sex. I.e. not a signficant risk to other people So no need to seperate them from others in day to day life.

now you say its only a small chance that an unvaccinated person gets the virus. This is only true if everyone is locked down. Its not true if society is fully opened up. Which is the goal. Then the chance of getting thr virus is very high for the unvaccinated. In fact its almost certain they will get it in a couple of years under such circumstances.

whats worse? Being forced to take a vaccine that is safe and effective and protects you from a contagious virus or being forced to be locked down. Surely the latter is far far far worse. Ive had the vaccine. Its impact is utterly insignficant. It wasted an hour of my day. Virtually no side effects. The impact of lock downs has been crushing.

VAccines do work. Terribly well In both minimising serious symptoms, getting the virus and transmitting the virus. But they arent perfect. Virtually none are. That doesnt mean it doesnt work though. Not working is meaning they dont improve things at all. 0 percent efficiency. Now the dact they arent perfect and the fact that some people cant get a vaccine for medical reasons is the reason why its people responsibility to their fello man to get vaccinated. Its not a personal choice for people who want to socialise because of these two things.

just like a person must get a license to drive on a public road with other drivers and must obey the road laws a person who wants to socialise with others during a highly infectious pandemic must get a vaccine.

the driver who obeys the road rules and has a license still might be in a car crash that injures others. But the odds of being in one is much lower then if he doesnt. The same concept applies to vaccinated people in a pandemic.

people who choose not to get a license or dont want to obey road rules could claim they are being discriminated against. They would be right too. I would argue its a form of discrimination i want in society.
 
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bourbons

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whats worse? Being forced to take a vaccine that is safe and effective and protects you from a contagious virus or being forced to be locked down. Surely the latter is far far far worse. Ive had the vaccine. Its impact is utterly insignficant. It wasted an hour of my day. Virtually no side effects. The impact of lock downs has been crushing.
Just on this one point - thats your experience and thats fine, but its not everyone's. My wife and I got ours the same day, she was fine and much like you describe - I was in bed for 2 days straight and not completely right for probably 4, sickest I've been in years.

Now don't get me wrong, I've got plenty of sick leave, happy to take one for the team. But at the same time I've never had a reaction like that from any other inoculation I've had in my life, and there's a whole range of adverse side effects that, just on the available data, are a demonstrably higher chance of occurring than for other inoculations (honestly, its exactly what you'd expect from a vaccine developed in 12 months). Not high enough to stop me from getting it, but it might be for some, everyone's different.

Its an additional wrinkle, not one that happens often enough to negate the vaccine being a net positive in our current situation imo, but a wrinkle nonetheless - and probably one that gets resolved in another 5+ years once they've actually had the same time to develop and test the vax in the same extended processes that other vaccines have gone through.
 
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ABSOLUTE MADMAN

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two massive differences Between gay people in the 80s and unvaccinated people today.

hiv wasnt transmissable by just standing next to an infected person when they breathed.

being gay wasnt a choice. choosing not to take a vaccine is a choice.
Yeah you screwed yourself over with that argument.

Being gay is not a choice. Choosing not to abstain from higher risk homosexual activity is a choice.

It seems pretty obvious that someone like you would have have discriminated against gay people in the 80s.
 

Seeds

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Yeah you screwed yourself over with that argument.

Being gay is not a choice. Choosing not to abstain from higher risk homosexual activity is a choice.

It seems pretty obvious that someone like you would have have discriminated against gay people in the 80s.
Talk about misreading the chain of posts. I said it wasnt a choice dude. That was one of my points of how it was different from unvaccinated people.

also choose to cut off the bit where i said the policy would be mute cos an infectious disease spread through the air wouldnt contain itself to an specific group for very long
 

Seeds

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Just on this one point - thats your experience and thats fine, but its not everyone's. My wife and I got ours the same day, she was fine and much like you describe - I was in bed for 2 days straight and not completely right for probably 4, sickest I've been in years.

Now don't get me wrong, I've got plenty of sick leave, happy to take one for the team. But at the same time I've never had a reaction like that from any other inoculation I've had in my life, and there's a whole range of adverse side effects that, just on the available data, are a demonstrably higher chance of occurring than for other inoculations (honestly, its exactly what you'd expect from a vaccine developed in 12 months). Not high enough to stop me from getting it, but it might be for some, everyone's different.

Its an additional wrinkle, not one that happens often enough to negate the vaccine being a net positive in our current situation imo, but a wrinkle nonetheless - and probably one that gets resolved in another 5+ years once they've actually had the same time to develop and test the vax in the same extended processes that other vaccines have gone through.
that is not the usual reaction and even if it was a week of being sick is still far better then the lockdowns and seperations we have faced for the past two years (Not to mention the threat of getting covid).
 

Seeds

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Yep, totally get that argument, pretty much why I got vaxed myself (although specifically ensuring risk was as low as possible for my parents was in there too, so maybe a touch more selfish in motivation).

It would just be good to know how much we're minimising risk to everyone else, when the trade-off is looking like being restrictions on public venues and movement. Suspect that can't be accurately quantified though.
no clear stats yet but its all pointing to roughtly around the following:

25 percent less chance of getting it if you are vaccinated.

25 percent chance of passing it on if you are vaccinated and do get it.

that would reduce its transmissability by an 7 eighths. Thats significant in helping stop the virus Spread.
 

bourbons

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that is not the usual reaction and even if it was a week of being sick is still far better then the lockdowns and seperations we have faced for the past two years (Not to mention the threat of getting covid).
Agree.

Would be cold comfort though to the families of the 10 or so people confirmed to have died from it, or the many more who have copped adverse reactions on the more serious side and are now on blood thinners or other meds for the rest of their life.
 

Seeds

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Agree.

Would be cold comfort though to the families of the 10 or so people confirmed to have died from it, or the many more who have copped adverse reactions on the more serious side and are now on blood thinners or other meds for the rest of their life.
True some people have lost it all. But thats out of 16 million who have had a vaccine dose in australia. Imagine how many deaths and long covid experiences there would be if 16 million people had the virus and none of them were vaccinated. Instead of 10 deaths it would be 100000 deaths. Probably a number of fold more as hospitals would be overrun.
 

Pie eyed

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I have no issue with people not having the vaccine for a legit reason.
"God said" and just being a dickhead are not legit reasons in my book.
 

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