Covid-19 Mandatory vaccines

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sorted

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Israel introduced a Covid Green Pass – a vaccine passport that allows double Pfizer vaccinated people to enter public spaces, including restaurants, hotels, clubs, cultural venues and large private gatherings. They are now changing the rules so that a third shot is required. Nearly 2 million people will lose their 'privileges' in the coming days.

The change in policy came after Israeli health officials and experts warned of a significant waning of immunity in people five or six months after their second Pfizer dose.​
Overseas studies have also shown the need for booster Pfizer doses after several months.​
A large and recent study by the University of Oxford found the efficacy of the Pfizer jab fell by 22 per cent per month – from an original 84 per cent for adults overall.​

Is this the path Australia wants to go down? Booster jabs every few months to maintain your rights to earn a living, watch a game of footy, or take your family on holiday.
 

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Alternative?
I would highly recommend vaccinations for the elderly and for healthcare workers. Then antibody tests, and booster shots if necessary. Also, the introduction of cheap, safe, effective treatments.

But mandatory vaccination for all to be able to live their normal lives is not justified.
 

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Seeds

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Israel introduced a Covid Green Pass – a vaccine passport that allows double Pfizer vaccinated people to enter public spaces, including restaurants, hotels, clubs, cultural venues and large private gatherings. They are now changing the rules so that a third shot is required. Nearly 2 million people will lose their 'privileges' in the coming days.

The change in policy came after Israeli health officials and experts warned of a significant waning of immunity in people five or six months after their second Pfizer dose.​
Overseas studies have also shown the need for booster Pfizer doses after several months.​
A large and recent study by the University of Oxford found the efficacy of the Pfizer jab fell by 22 per cent per month – from an original 84 per cent for adults overall.​

Is this the path Australia wants to go down? Booster jabs every few months to maintain your rights to earn a living, watch a game of footy, or take your family on holiday.
Yes. Cos it has to happen. We have no choice.

maybe if we enforced all people (without medical exemptions) to get the vaccine including kids then we wouldnt need vaccines once a year.
 

Seeds

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I would highly recommend vaccinations for the elderly and for healthcare workers. Then antibody tests, and booster shots if necessary. Also, the introduction of cheap, safe, effective treatments.

But mandatory vaccination for all to be able to live their normal lives is not justified.
And our hospitals will not last two months if that was your policy.
 

Elroo

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Israel introduced a Covid Green Pass – a vaccine passport that allows double Pfizer vaccinated people to enter public spaces, including restaurants, hotels, clubs, cultural venues and large private gatherings. They are now changing the rules so that a third shot is required. Nearly 2 million people will lose their 'privileges' in the coming days.

The change in policy came after Israeli health officials and experts warned of a significant waning of immunity in people five or six months after their second Pfizer dose.​
Overseas studies have also shown the need for booster Pfizer doses after several months.​
A large and recent study by the University of Oxford found the efficacy of the Pfizer jab fell by 22 per cent per month – from an original 84 per cent for adults overall.​

Is this the path Australia wants to go down? Booster jabs every few 6+ months to maintain your rights to earn a living, watch a game of footy, or take your family on holiday.
Yep, I have an Israeli Green pass as I was given my Pfizer Vaccinations in Israel. I'ii gladly get my 3rd booster shot and any others required, just like I only recently re-did most of my previous vaccinations due to working in the MER.
 

ablett

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We have to open up sooner than later Vaccines are the only way, real anti vaxxers are small in number some will die badly others maybe luckier, but anti vaxxers are simply wrong , and some of them sound like the wokery of the world and climate change, like climate change , vaxxines have been happening for 70 or 80 years as climate change has been happening for several billion years, so logic says get vaccinated, or you MAY? may die bad, or get sicker than you would if you are vaccinated.
ARE WE SURE THE ANTI-VAXXERS AREN'T GREENIE FORMER HIPPIES WITH NOTHING TO DO?
i CAN'T BELIEVE THE STUPIDITY, VACCINES CUT THE ODDS, IF YOU DON'T TAKE IT, ITS LIKE ENTERING YOUR HORSE IN A RACE WITH OUT A JOCKEY AT ALL.
YOU MIGHT WIN.............. BUT YOU CAN'T WIN! Got it?
But more people have died this year after receiving the Vaccine than people dying from COVID , all the stats are on the TGA website
Plus these ain’t vaccines so you can’t compare them to Vaccines of the past
 

ablett

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I view the vaccine more like a seatbelt. I wear a seatbelt for my own protection. If the driver of the vehicle who hits me in a head-on collision isn't wearing a seatbelt, that's their problem.

The argument that unvaccinated people take up more of our limited hospital resources is probably the only valid one for mandatory vaccination afaic.
Go to any hospital and they are inundated with people rushing in after experiencing serious side effects after getting jabbed, not from people getting COVID, I know this Cos have Family treating them in Hospitals
 

Chief

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But more people have died this year after receiving the Vaccine than people dying from COVID
Go to any hospital and they are inundated with people rushing in after experiencing serious side effects after getting jabbed, not from people getting COVID, I know this Cos have Family treating them in Hospitals
Stop spreading lies and bullshit.
 

bourbons

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And our hospitals will not last two months if that was your policy.
Can't say that with certainty imo. Its a possibility, sure.

Which is an absolute indictment in itself. This was the story when covid kicked off last year, they've had 18 months to bolster the hospital system and/or build covid-specific facilities - whats been done?
 

bourbons

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But more people have died this year after receiving the Vaccine than people dying from COVID , all the stats are on the TGA website
Plus these ain’t vaccines so you can’t compare them to Vaccines of the past
No that isn't correct - the number you're looking at there is people who have died at some point after being vaccinated, not because they were vaccinated.

The confirmed number of deaths linked to vaccine is around 10 I think.
 

Seeds

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Can't say that with certainty imo. Its a possibility, sure.

Which is an absolute indictment in itself. This was the story when covid kicked off last year, they've had 18 months to bolster the hospital system and/or build covid-specific facilities - whats been done?
Nothing been done. Its a disgrace. Whilst the media has spent too much time focusing on quarantine centres they should of been focusing on hospitals and increasing uni places for medical students.
 

kranky al

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True some people have lost it all. But thats out of 16 million who have had a vaccine dose in australia. Imagine how many deaths and long covid experiences there would be if 16 million people had the virus and none of them were vaccinated. Instead of 10 deaths it would be 100000 deaths. Probably a number of fold more as hospitals would be overrun.
Never ceases to amaze me at how utterly pants on head, bump uglies with your sister….. whos also your mother …. Utterly sh*t thick at maths you would have to be to compare vaccine reactions with unvaccinated deaths.


Theres literally a multiple of 1000 or more better chance of serious covid death or long term effects than vaccine issues.


Would love to play poker with you lot - would absolutely clean you the funk out - you lot would be all in on inside straights every time.
 

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sorted

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Yep, I have an Israeli Green pass as I was given my Pfizer Vaccinations in Israel. I'ii gladly get my 3rd booster shot and any others required, just like I only recently re-did most of my previous vaccinations due to working in the MER.
That's fine if you are required to be vaccinated if working in health or age care. Or if you wish to get booster shots. But there's no good argument supporting a mandatory vaccine for all workers such as farmers, construction workers and truck drivers.
 

Chief

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Builders and the like - any manual labour - there’s probably a good argument for mandatory vaccination given heavy work in a dynamic workplace, close quarters, sweatin’ it up and breathin’ heavy in a manly way. Masks aren’t going to be that great and distancing isn’t going to be 100%.
 

Seeds

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Builders and the like - any manual labour - there’s probably a good argument for mandatory vaccination given heavy work in a dynamic workplace, close quarters, sweatin’ it up and breathin’ heavy in a manly way. Masks aren’t going to be that great and distancing isn’t going to be 100%.
What about anyone that plays community sport that involves no masks and lots of sweating, breathing and even tackling. Should anyone who plays community sport also have manadatory vaccines?
 

CM86

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The amount of deliberately disseminated disinformation has created a unique situation. The 'anti-vaccine' movement seems to need these requirements put in place, that wouldn't normally be necessary.


So many of the areas are incredibly complicated, multifaceted and highly nuanced. A specialist in one area may not be able to properly understand and explain specialist information from another area. Even though they have clear connection. This is why we have experts, and why we look to them.
Yes, the system sometimes fails, sometimes the majority expert opinion has been wrong. What would you replace it with?

When a single sentence has enough misinformation to require several paragraphs in response, the nuance is gone and it's a serious problem.



Here is some reasons why I mostly support it.

I think it supports the employers/management because it provides them legal protection. It helps every individual business/association/etc work out specific legal frameworks and litigation. And doesn't need to find individual legal advice and frameworks with shareholders, partners, suppliers, retailers etc.

I think it supports workers/employees if their employer/manager is 'anti-vaccine'. They don't have to worry about the power dynamic, or legal positions. They can just point to the Government requirements. There is a clear outline of expectations in the workplace.


The Government/leadership should follow the advice of the majority of the science, research, data, medical expertise and knowledge etc.
The other view to that story could be argued that he is making a personal choice, that may reduce or remove his ability to represent his constituents.
I don't think either view is fair.



This is, at least, misinformation.
It's a short, powerful looking sentence. But it's fallacious.
Why ignore
1. Any Federal MP sitting virtually, has already reduced their capacity to fully participate.​
2. There have been rules that have been adapted or changed, where reasonable, since the pandemic. This one can continue to change.​
3. There is multiple reasons that a secure video link is required. It makes sense that it would be installed in their electorate office, but doesn't mean it's not possible to install it into certain homes, or to find some other way to connect securely.​
4. The Federal parliament created the strict rules around virtual attendance.​


Additionally, he previously reduced his capacity to participate in certain areas of Government before. When he stood down from "the speaker's panel and his committee chairmanship".
A small part of his reasoning was that he believed Greg Hunt misled him. The implication being that he would now mistrust Greg Hunt.
His very first statement in his list was.
“I’m uncomfortable with mass vaccination of the population, with the vaccine that is, according to Minister Hunt, being trialled across the world.”​



So the story is based on a Facebook post by a Federal MP, explaining his position of mistrust, where he specifically mentions the Federal minister for health, Greg Hunt. And this Federal MP may not be able to participate in Federal Parliament, due to Federal Parliament rules, that could be modified again.

And the takeaway from this, is that "effectively this means that Daniel Andrews has passed laws that prevent an elected Federal member participating in Parliament."

But none of what I've just explained matters to certain people, because it's too much to read, or they will just disagree due to confirmation bias, or someone will throw in a quip that 'justifies' it being disregarded.
Because that sentence is short and looks powerful. While my multiple sentences are boring.
Which is part of why I support the requirements. Because in our current climate, it's seemingly impossible to combat misinformation/disinformation.
“Any direction or order from an employer to an employee must be lawful and reasonable in all the circumstances,” Mr Bornstein said.​
“In the context of a pandemic – and in particular Delta variant, which is highly infectious and dangerous – it is likely that courts will uphold employer orders compelling employees to be vaccinated.”​
On the flipside, Mr Bornstein said employers who didn’t ensure their workers were vaccinated could leave themselves open to being sued if, as a result of that failure, people became sick or died.​
Employers have a duty to provide a safe workplace and a failure to take reasonable steps to ensure that safety can result in very extensive legal problems,” he said. - Brisbane Times

I also think his comments are interesting. And they seem clear and reasonable.

Do you find any of it unusual or unreasonable?


You make a compelling point in support of the requirements.

Also, I feel like the comments you keep referring to, explained it.
On the flipside, Mr Bornstein said employers who didn’t ensure their workers were vaccinated could leave themselves open to being sued if, as a result of that failure, people became sick or died.​
Employers have a duty to provide a safe workplace and a failure to take reasonable steps to ensure that safety can result in very extensive legal problems,” he said. - Brisbane Times
So in this case, the employer is following regulations, requirements, the law etc.

I'm struggling to envisage a scenario where the employer could be successfully sued, in your 'hypothetical'. Can you expand on it please?

Also, from the same article.
Associate Professor at the ANU College of Law, Dr Ron Levy

Dr Levy said a court faced with human rights claims, would balance that with the untold social upheaval, economic catastrophe and, most of all, widescale death and morbidity from COVID-19.​
“It is likely that the court will back the Victorian government, either in whole or in part,” Dr Levy said.​
“Courts particularly tend to defer to governments in times of emergency, like this one.” - Brisbane Times

From what I understand, if it all turns out to be an international conspiracy. The employer would still be protected, but the Government could then be sued.




How?

What's another scenario where you'd hold your position?
Harnesses, safety goggles?

It's possible that our views on these things are so opposite, that I'm completely missing important context, or what you might feel is base knowledge.
 

JoondalupJ

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But more people have died this year after receiving the Vaccine than people dying from COVID , all the stats are on the TGA website
Plus these ain’t vaccines so you can’t compare them to Vaccines of the past
Never believe those stats, each and every one of those numbers comes with an individual situation and every individual situation is different, and every difference is like the COVID death count? Is the death caused by COVID? Or a co-morbidity with the infection, BUT, not from it.
And that is an answer, no individual STATISTICIAN can tell you because we already know that the mass death numbers in 2020 were of people in the main with vulnerability to serious illness' that weren't COVID , MANY DIED WITH IT IN A TEST TUBE FROM THEIR BODY BEING TESTED, BUT ALSO DIED FROM IT ITSELF.
We also know that stats where anyone died were told to be written up as a COVID death, look, nothings cut and dried, but the fellow in a Richmond deli recently, who died of COVID was unvaccinated, his family were vaccinated, he died, they didn't even have positive test results and bravely opened up to the media to say GET VACCINATED. R.I.P. to that gentleman.

The conspiracy theories coming out are simply only that. get vaccinated, it will not kill you , as several millions and millions of vaccinated people are proving. Don't believe the rumours, or any scuttlebutt, even Craig Kelly was correct to a degree about HCQ and Ivermectin, but now he's seemed to take off on this anti-vax crud , too, you can find cranks telling you anything any time if you look for it, I found one by accident on one of those religious shows while surfing the bloody fox, their numbers and ravings , were very well put and a bit disturbing except for one major problem , those numbers and figures on what they were talking about with vaccines was impossible for them to even know , it ends up a joke, because the couldn't have an opening to thousands upon thousand of individuals they were discussing.
But some of these folk are very tunnel visioned and extremely stuck in their beliefs. They make a living out of conspiracy theories, most human beings on this planet have basic common sense. Thats why millions and millions are vaccinated.
If you got crook from a vaccine and died or wound up in hospital well thats the risk when something like COVID turns up, the risk is worth it, because for most it works out, and the problems for some vaccs side effects are solved and they get through it anyway.
If you want to lock up forever, then stop kicking that footy to a dangerous spot, and never take the chance to score.

You will be locked up forever. I've had both my jabs, and the vaccines can only improve , the treatments too, but they are not really ready yet, so get on with it and stop worrying , its not Ebola.... yet? Or is it, wait? Is that a conspiracy story.
Hell they even contained that sh*t! Even the bubonic plague is still here. ha ha .
 

JoondalupJ

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So you want to reduce the average life expectancy of all people just cos you cant be bothered to spend five minutes getting an injection?

the time it takes to get a drivers license is a hell of a lot longer yet they are mandated to drive. is it an unacceptable loss of liberty when society forces you to get a license before you can drive?


i think its a loss of liberty when i have to wear masks and i cant travel without threat of getting a virus thats quite dangerous to older people and causes severe long term illness in some younger people. But the loss of liberty isnt imposed by the government. Its imposed by the unvaccinated.
Seeds that is brilliant, you said it in a few words, I said in ten million words, ha ha good on you mate, that IS common sense.
 

Seeds

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Yep - lots of stuff like that. Though “dancing in the same room as strangers who are also dancing” isn’t a job.
It isnt but it is an activity that the majority of 15-35 year olds do. Likewise the majority of 12-35 year olds also play sport. Basically for those two reasons alone its mandatory for that age group to get vaccines.

And so it should be. We should jist make itandatory for everyone to make it all simplier.
 

Seeds

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Iirc Australian chief health officers have said you are wearing masks essentially forever so take it up with them.

Many people die and are sick prior to pandemic - What's different with corona? How many children die every day from preventable causes? No one seems to care about those issues.

My very health coworker (runs 10k for a laugh) was apparently in hospital for a long time after his 2nd vax...

Apparently "a FDA spokesman saying males under 40 have a greater risk with the COVID injections, than getting COVID infection. "

pregnant woman fetus death, via xcovid vax sounds rather unsavory too. Etc.

These are the types of things that concern me not waiting 5 min for a needle.
Do you get all your news from fake news posted on social media and one off examples that you only have partial information on? Are you really that stupid?

im sorry but its time we start calling out people for being so effing dumb. You are endangering all of us.
 

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