Marc Murphy vs Trent Cotchin, are they currently at the same level?

[richoatthedisco]

Smurph's a beaut little player, but the Chimp is a champion.

 

[tony__montana]

Murph is an underrated player of the comp, great accumulator, but Cotch went to a new level this year.

 

[Stevi_Tigers]

both are good players i obviously think cotchin is better but you would love to have either play in your side

 

[BigT]

Cotchins last year the best year of either of them. Found a harder edge and lead his team well. Murphy been consistent for a long time.

I’d take Cotch right now if offered based on last year. Prior to that very similar imo

 

[jackenny]

Marc Murphy's 2011 season is simply as good as Trent Cotchin's 2012 season IMO. These are their best years to date, easily.

But the only two years when I thought Cotchin looked good were 2012 and 2017. Every year after 2012 Cotchin looked like a shadow of himself at best and the game's Captain Buttmonkey at worst. He decided to kick against the wind (a bad decision that needs repeating in this thread, especially with Richmond fans seriously trying to compare his captaincy to the likes of Selwood, Hodge, and Voss - c'mon, get real). The thing about Cotchin is that he produces an alarming amount of clangers, too. This is a player who is surrounded by genuine talent, too - enough talent to get a premiership medal around his neck.

For ages, Carlton simply had Judd, Murphy, Gibbs, and Simpson. Yarran made the tiniest of cameos for a single eason but soon vanished into obscurity after being traded. Dale Thomas was forever lost to injury hell. That was it. Judd retires, thankfully Cripps steps up and takes his place - because it's getting a bit ridiculous watching an ageing Judd be Carlton's fourth best player with everyone else miles behind (with a couple games of vintage Judd thrown in). Because, that's how it literally was for a long time. It was Murphy and Gibbs. Judd making a cameo. Simpson being the only bit of class to mop things up in Carlton's backline and on the wing.

Carlton's next best players were of the C-grade-but-with-seeming-potential Tom Bell variety or the forever-injured-and-overly-cautious-as-a-result Waite variety.

For a short time Murphy got to play with Fevola. But things happened.

Taking a look down memory lane, Richmond fans are only recently harping on about how great a leader Cotchin is (basically, potting Cotchin used to be a sport unto itself for Richmond fans):

https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/cotchin-not-the-superstar-some-think.1061308/

https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/thre...in-should-give-up-richmond-captaincy.1145686/

https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/thre...dio-captain-instead-of-trent-cotchin.1150268/

https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/cotchin.1132185/

https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/cotchin.1076175/

https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/no-more-excuses-cotchin.1096383/

https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/finals-2015-damien-hardwick-says-trent-cotchin-richmond-leaders-don’t-have-an-issue-in-finals.1113138/

In conclusion, calling Cotchin 'great' is a very recent thing (minus his 2012 form). Since then, Richmond fans were harping on about him being a lesser player after getting captaincy and he should relinquish it to put the pressure off him, hopefully regaining that 2012 form. One 2017 premiership later, all criticisms are forgotten and suddenly those forgotten years are, well, forgotten.

Murphy OTOH has basically been lauded as a freak ever since he was drafted #1 in the 2005 draft.

Murphy for me. Easily.

 

[juss]

Marc Murphy's 2011 season is simply as good as Trent Cotchin's 2012 season IMO. These are their best years to date, easily.

But the only two years when I thought Cotchin looked good were 2012 and 2017. Every year after 2012 Cotchin looked like a shadow of himself at best and the game's Captain Buttmonkey at worst. He decided to kick against the wind (a bad decision that needs repeating in this thread, especially with Richmond fans seriously trying to compare his captaincy to the likes of Selwood, Hodge, and Voss - c'mon, get real). The thing about Cotchin is that he produces an alarming amount of clangers, too. This is a player who is surrounded by genuine talent, too - enough talent to get a premiership medal around his neck.


Murphy for me. Easily.

Richmond fans? Or was it guys like Jonathan Brown and Leigh Matthews who compared his captaincy in 2017 to those players? I don't think you'll find anyone, tiger fan or other, who rated his captaincy at that level between 2013-2016. Comparisons were simply made for his form in 2017, and particularly the 2017 finals series, and the comparisons weren't started by Tiger fans.

2012 and 2017 were his best and second best years, respectively. But he did rack up a B&F win in the years in-between (2014), and that's beating guys like Rance, Riewoldt, Martin and Deledio, so he was hardly a mug in those years.

You mention Murphy was only surrounded by a handful of guns, and then a bunch of lesser players. Funnily enough, this is what people say about Richmond, a handful of guns, and a bunch of so called average players. So which one suits your argument? Either Cotchin and the other guns are truly top shelf and can win a flag carrying a bunch of spuds, or the rest of Richmond's 22 are quality. It's one or the other. Opposition fans seem to pick the one that suits their argument.

Did Cotchin cop criticism for 13-16? Absolutely, deservedly at times, undeservedly at others. Why would you not be critical of someone who is not playing at their absolute best they have shown? You're kidding yourself if you think Carlton fans have not made the same criticisms of Murphy over the years, when he too has had periods of weaker form.

It's fine if you rate Murphy ahead, that's your entitled opinion, but at least look deeper into your other comments, which are pretty bogus and selectively bias.

 

[jackenny]

Richmond fans? Or was it guys like Jonathan Brown and Leigh Matthews who compared his captaincy in 2017 to those players? I don't think you'll find anyone, tiger fan or other, who rated his captaincy at that level between 2013-2016. Comparisons were simply made for his form in 2017, and particularly the 2017 finals series, and the comparisons weren't started by Tiger fans.

You mention Murphy was only surrounded by a handful of guns, and then a bunch of lesser players. Funnily enough, this is what people say about Richmond, a handful of guns, and a bunch of so called average players. So which one suits your argument? Either Cotchin and the other guns are truly top shelf and can win a flag carrying a bunch of spuds, or the rest of Richmond's 22 are quality. It's one or the other. Opposition fans seem to pick the one that suits their argument.

First of all, yes, there are Richmond fans who compared Cotchin's captaincy to Selwood, Voss, and Hodge. You only have to look in this thread alone:

https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/thre...at-the-same-level.997226/page-7#post-54045797

Quote: "Cotchin was Selwood-esque and compared to Hodge and Voss in his captaincy and finals form."

So in regard to that first paragraph I am replying to, suck a sausage. Your attempt to twist my words to suit your own bogus, selectively biased agenda is too bloody transparent.

As for your second paragraph that I am replying to, it's not 'one or the other'. It's not an either/or situation and only a mental midget would characterise it as such. Carlton's list management was disgusting (so much so they fired a crap ton of players and list management staff as a result). Carlton truly had the worst depth in the league and are still recovering. You're talking about a list where a player like Brock McLean was easily getting a game week in, week out. It was that garbage. Richmond's list was / is streets ahead of that. The only thing I ever gave Richmond's list crap about was their ruck depth (even then, I still praised the hell out of Ivan Maric because he was genuinely wanting to pull Richmond out of the middling order when their training regiment was crud and showed far more leadership than Cotchin - the only praise I gave Shaun Hamson was nabbing Megan Gale as a wife).

 

[Tiger2709]

First of all, yes, there are Richmond fans who compared Cotchin's captaincy to Selwood, Voss, and Hodge. You only have to look in this thread alone:

https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/thre...at-the-same-level.997226/page-7#post-54045797

Quote: "Cotchin was Selwood-esque and compared to Hodge and Voss in his captaincy and finals form."

So in regard to that first paragraph I am replying to, suck a sausage. Your attempt to twist my words to suit your own bogus, selectively biased agenda is too bloody transparent.

As for your second paragraph that I am replying to, it's not 'one or the other'. It's not an either/or situation and only a mental midget would characterise it as such. Carlton's list management was disgusting (so much so they fired a crap ton of players and list management staff as a result). Carlton truly had the worst depth in the league and are still recovering. You're talking about a list where a player like Brock McLean was easily getting a game week in, week out. It was that garbage. Richmond's list was / is streets ahead of that. The only thing I ever gave Richmond's list crap about was their ruck depth (even then, I still praised the hell out of Ivan Maric because he was genuinely wanting to pull Richmond out of the middling order when their training regiment was crud and showed far more leadership than Cotchin - the only praise I gave Shaun Hamson was nabbing Megan Gale as a wife).

The comparisons by Richmond supporters were made simply because Brown and Mathews were making these comparisons, particularly in regards Voss and other than Voss himself there aren't many better judges.

Cotchin was second best player in a flag winning finals series, this says a lot and in my opinion edges out Murphy who is without doubt a good player but its winning flags that really makes a career, Murph at 30 is unlikely to get a chance to do this.

 

[juss]

First of all, yes, there are Richmond fans who compared Cotchin's captaincy to Selwood, Voss, and Hodge. You only have to look in this thread alone:

https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/thre...at-the-same-level.997226/page-7#post-54045797

Quote: "Cotchin was Selwood-esque and compared to Hodge and Voss in his captaincy and finals form."

So in regard to that first paragraph I am replying to, suck a sausage. Your attempt to twist my words to suit your own bogus, selectively biased agenda is too bloody transparent.

He was compared to Hodge and Voss, by Jono Brown and Leigh Matthews initially. And then it was discussed on a football forum, by football fans.
So your notion that Tiger fans initiated these comparisons is simply incorrect. Why would we not discuss a comparison that is made by two greats of the game?

I haven't twisted your words, just pointed out were you were wrong and pointed out the rubbish of your second paragraph were you have made criticisms that directly apply to Murphy too and judgement of the fans where Carlton fans have done the exact same, i.e making comment a player isn't at their best.

 

[jackenny]

He was compared to Hodge and Voss, by Jono Brown and Leigh Matthews initially. And then it was discussed on a football forum, by football fans.
So your notion that Tiger fans initiated these comparisons is simply incorrect. Why would we not discuss a comparison that is made by two greats of the game?

I haven't twisted your words, just pointed out were you were wrong and pointed out the rubbish of your second paragraph were you have made criticisms that directly apply to Murphy too and judgement of the fans where Carlton fans have done the exact same, i.e making comment a player isn't at their best.

If you haven't twisted my words, where did I say Tiger fans "initiated" these comparisons? Did they or did they not make comparisons to Selwood, Hodge, and Voss (basically, who cares who initiated the discussion)?

 

[juss]

If you haven't twisted my words, where did I say Tiger fans "initiated" these comparisons? Did they or did they not make comparisons to Selwood, Hodge, and Voss (basically, who cares who initiated the discussion)?

Because there's a difference between a supporter group making claims, and a supporter group discussing the comments of other experts. It shows that it's not supporter bias pulling comparisons out of their ass, it's a genuine opinion of two greats of the game.

So yes, supporters did discuss the comparisons made by Brown and Lethal. Is there meant to be some sort of criticism there?

 

[Tiger2709]

If you haven't twisted my words, where did I say Tiger fans "initiated" these comparisons? Did they or did they not make comparisons to Selwood, Hodge, and Voss (basically, who cares who initiated the discussion)?

I think the comparison with Selwood is fair in the context of his 2017 style of Captaincy and with the others with his finals playing style and leadership but he obviously would need to back it up over the rest of his career with Richmond showing more success in that time to be really comparible.

 

[jackenny]

Because there's a difference between a supporter group making claims, and a supporter group discussing the comments of other experts. It shows that it's not supporter bias pulling comparisons out of their ass, it's a genuine opinion of two greats of the game.

So yes, supporters did discuss the comparisons made by Brown and Lethal. Is there meant to be some sort of criticism there?

You're not following. You wrote "your notion that Tiger fans initiated these comparisons is simply incorrect."

Again, where did I say Tiger fans initiated these discussions? You're trying very hard to deflect away from this question, though. Weird. Almost like you don't have an answer to that.

Moving on, a Tiger fan described Cotchin as "Selwood-esque" in this thread. You can hardly describe that as someone 'discussing the comparisons made by Brown and Lethal', now can you? It's almost like they're making their own comparisons...

In any case, I really have no idea what your point is. Tiger fans weren't the ones to initially compare Cotchin to Voss or Hodge? Um, so?

 

[juss]

You're not following. You wrote "your notion that Tiger fans initiated these comparisons is simply incorrect."

Again, where did I say Tiger fans initiated these discussions? You're trying very hard to deflect away from this question, though. Weird. Almost like you don't have an answer to that.

Moving on, a Tiger fan described Cotchin as "Selwood-esque" in this thread. You can hardly describe that as someone 'discussing the comparisons made by Brown and Lethal', now can you? It's almost like they're making their own comparisons...

In any case, I really have no idea what your point is. Tiger fans weren't the ones to initially compare Cotchin to Voss or Hodge? Um, so?

He was Selwood-esque, he inspired his team. What's your point?

 

[NUFC Tiger]

As a player, Murphy is definitely underrated and had a great 2017.

Though as a captain, both have had question marks over them - Cotchin putting them to rest with some inspired finals heroics leading to a drought breaking flag and earning plaudits from all corners from the game's media and champions of the past.

Murphy on the other hand (IMO) seems to still have the reputation of being seen as a 'poor' captain in the league (just going off social media and things I've read/heard). I'm not going to say he is a bad captain myself by any means (pretty sure Tex has both hands on that tag lol) though as I've seen some suggest, doesn't exactly look great when you retain the captaincy but then need a support crew of 7 to join you in the leadership group. Time will of course tell his legacy but you'd have to say his tenure as captain to date hasn't exactly yielded much in the way of fruit (9th, 13th, 18th, 14th, 16th).

 

[jackenny]

He was Selwood-esque, he inspired his team. What's your point?

That this praise on Cotchin's captaincy is a recent thing. Before winning the premiership, Tiger fans were talking about Cotchin relinquishing his captaincy to hopefully regain his 2012 form. In comparison to Selwood whose leadership has never been put under the same level of criticism. In that sense, Cotchin isn't even close to the same league as Hodge, Voss, and Selwood.

Murphy OTOH is a #1 draft pick who's always been lauded as a freak (in his draft year Murphy was considered out of this world and picking him first was a no-brainer).

You'd know all this if you read my first post (the one you initially replied to), though.

 

[juss]

That this praise on Cotchin's captaincy is a recent thing. Before winning the premiership, Tiger fans were talking about Cotchin relinquishing his captaincy to hopefully regain his 2012 form. In comparison to Selwood whose leadership has never been put under the same level of criticism. In that sense, Cotchin isn't even close to the same league as Hodge, Voss, and Selwood.

Murphy OTOH is a #1 draft pick who's always been lauded as a freak (in his draft year Murphy was considered out of this world and picking him first was a no-brainer).

You'd know all this if you read my first post (the one you initially replied to), though.

His captaincy was compared to those this season. And in particularly the finals. No one's saying his captaincy has been this good his whole career.
Why do you continually miss the point of what's being said?

 

[Schraderbrau]

I've never rated Murphy that highly. He's bad defensively and is not a great kick imo. Probably a better player than Cotchin though. Leadership is a different question and should treated separately.

 

[DontArgue4]

I've never rated Murphy that highly. He's bad defensively and is not a great kick imo. Probably a better player than Cotchin though. Leadership is a different question and should treated separately.

never rated murphy but hes a better player than cotchin?

i mean, seriously

do some posters even watch footy ever?

* me

 

[Schraderbrau]

never rated murphy but hes a better player than cotchin?

i mean, seriously

do some posters even watch footy ever?

**** me

"never rated murphy that highly" doesn't mean that i think he's terrible. There are a lot of good midfielders in the AFL and Murphy and Cotchin are both well off the very best.

 

[DontArgue4]

"never rated murphy that highly" doesn't mean that i think he's terrible. There are a lot of good midfielders in the AFL and Murphy and Cotchin are both well off the very best.

Cotchin is not "well off" the very best

stop using stats to assess a player like i know you most definitely are

cotchin had a brilliant 2017 and an amazing finals campaign

amazing player who gets criminally underrated by most of bigfooty

 

[Schraderbrau]

Cotchin is not "well off" the very best

stop using stats to assess a player like i know you most definitely are

cotchin had a brilliant 2017 and an amazing finals campaign

amazing player who gets criminally underrated by most of bigfooty

ok cotchin is awesome

 

[Masqualero]

I've never rated Murphy that highly. He's bad defensively and is not a great kick imo. Probably a better player than Cotchin though. Leadership is a different question and should treated separately.

His defence could be better for sure, has a lot of missed tackles however his kicking is pretty good generally. Similar style to Pendles in that he weights his kicks very nicely to the right space as opposed to drilling the ball low and flat. Obviously his kick is not as good but it's generally effective.



Some good examples of his kick here.

 

[Rioli2Rioli]

Not even close anymore, 2017 Cotchin went to another level and will continue for another 5 years murphy is also 3 years older, By the end of their careers it wont even be close

Brownlow medalist & Premiership captain

 

[Jables]

It's pretty sad Murphy has never been in a good team he's a jet when he's not one of the one or two guys you have to stop, it was the same for '9 possession in a final' Cotchin at one stage, maybe Cripps can do what Martin did for Cotchin someday but Murphy will be well past his peak by then, average at best teams under Ratten and back then it was a pretty flooded midfield so Murphy frequently played in the forward line. Winning changes perceptions, I certainly remember when the average hack was calling all of our stars overrated.