Mark Fine vs Scott Watters

[HTPunter]

It's a bit much to take from Dal Santo defending himself and the players at the time.

Not saying Watters was good but sure sounds like the players main issue with him was that he didn't believe they were the best thing since sliced bread. He 'degraded their achievements' and told them their culture sucked, but they don't believe it because they had the great on field leaders (Dal Santos words) Lenny Hayes and Nick Riewoldt.

 

[Lavender Bushranger]

It's a bit much to take from Dal Santo defending himself and the players at the time.

Not saying Watters was good but sure sounds like the players main issue with him was that he didn't believe they were the best thing since sliced bread. He 'degraded their achievements' and told them their culture sucked, but they don't believe it because they had the great on field leaders (Dal Santos words) Lenny Hayes and Nick Riewoldt.

To be fair, Neeld tried the same thing at Melbourne.

In this case, I reckon it's fair to suggest that both Watters' and Neeld's approaches were wrong.

 

[Freomaniac]

Kram , your thoughts on scotty watters?

 

[Kram]

Kram , your thoughts on scotty watters?

Tony Abbott > Scotty Twatters

 

[Freomaniac]

Tony Abbott > Scotty Twatters

Seems like Scott Watters thought he was Robert Mugabe

 

[Grin]

This discussion's all cool and everything, but does anyone have any good Scott Watters stories. All the ones I've heard have apparently only scratched the surface.

 

[Boris the Contradiction]

To be fair, Neeld tried the same thing at Melbourne.

In this case, I reckon it's fair to suggest that both Watters' and Neeld's approaches were wrong.

I'm not sure.

In both cases, it could have been the right approach but from the wrong man.

Malthouse walked into a Collingwood that was a rabble and had just won the spoon. He saw a seriously flawed environment and set about making significant changes.

Malthouse was a premiership player, who had moderate coaching success at the Dogs, before wild successes and multiple flags at WCE. Everybody knew he was an abrasive and stubborn character who could be a bit of a dictator. But equally, everyone in the industry knew he could coach and respected him for it. The players feared and /or respected him and would have known that given the lengths Eddie went to to get Malthouse in, any "player power" type revolt would not have gone well for them.

The players wanted to improve and therefore took the harsh truths on the chin. They improved. The footy department staff? The same. Everyone bought into Mick's quest to transform the club and as a result, the club went from wooden spooner to consecutive Grand Finalist within 3 years. Buckley and a few others aside, we did it with a comparatively average list. But the team culture and buy in by the players was so complete, that they nearly pulled off the impossible.

Watters and Neeld were students of Malthouse and probably walked into SK and Melbourne to find the clubs in a mess. They then went about trying to implement similar wholesale changes to what Malthouse did at Collingwood, but they didn't have the gravitas that a pre-Collingwood Malthouse had in order to pull it off.

The top players at SK were household names and it would have taken a "name" they respected to overcome the player power dynamic in the club. The Melbourne kids may not have been in awe of Neeld (or feared him) in a way that could have enabled them to get past his tough love approach in order to be successful. The result? Everyone thought they were dickheads and they were spectacular failures who were shown the door.

The lesson to any club is that if you intend to hire a dictatorial coach (whether or not that approach would work for any coach in 2019 is even debatable), you sure as s**t better get one that the players admire and respect (or fear).

 

[Hawk_francais]

I like Mark Fine. But he's not really anything more than a fan, and he could be very biased and vindictive.

I can remember him absolutely grilling the Bulldogs in about 2014 saying he had no idea why they still had M.Boyd, Murphy or Morris on the list, and they were kidding themselves if they thought these failed leaders could take them to a flag. I do hope someone gave him a call two years later.

 

[Judd2Sewell]

I remember Dermott Brereton coming out in defence of Scott Watters. Pretty much saying that St Kilda will always be mediocre with such terrible decision making. Also said the Saints lost a great communicator and leader. He also had a go at Pelchen and all the top dogs there.

They are good mates apparently.

 

[Juddernaut08]

Personally the dwarf thing while funny just made the club look vile and unprofessional.

If it was to do with Watters (and not just being dicks to dwarves) it actually makes them look better.

 

[theprospect]

This discussion's all cool and everything, but does anyone have any good Scott Watters stories. All the ones I've heard have apparently only scratched the surface.

Guessing you've heard this one, but just in case you haven't (to the best of my memory);

After Brendon Goddard left for Essendon, he was on The Footy Show one night in 2013. Was asked a question about Watters and laughed, and referred to him as 'the dwarf'. Became an in house joke between the St Kilda players around the club which Watters found belittling and insubordinate, so in a fit of rage black listed the name Brendon Goddard from ever being mentioned in his presence again.

He then refused to give Justin Koschitzke his 200th and final farewell game in front of a St Kilda home crowd against a Fremantle side that everyone knew was having their entire team rested. We had won 4 games for the year to that point. Leigh Montagna had to switch his GPS with him during the week to prove he was fit enough to be named, and the whole club fought against Watters to give him the game. He eventually conceded, but in a desperate attempt to show some kind of authority had him as the sub and only gave him 20 minutes in the last quarter of the season.

(Between the end of that game and the next paragraph Mad Monday happened and we all know that story)

Tensions between Riewoldt and Watters became so intense that many believe Nick was prepared to walk out the door to Collingwood at the end of 2013 if he wasn't sacked immediately. Had a massive offer on the table from Eddie McGuire that would have guaranteed anything he wanted post football in a media capacity. Watters wanted him sacked as captain in favour of David Armitage and Tom Lee, but that obviously amounted to nothing and within days Watters was sacked. Hasn't been spoken about since by any past or present players.

Again, we're led to believe that this is only scratching the surface so god knows what else happened at the club in those two years.

 

[DaveEgoat]

Keeping your club artificially afloat because your 8 members don't show up.

Keeping a club afloat is one thing....

Handing them a major advantage over the rest of the comp is another. But Swans fans don’t like acknowledging that

How were things going in ‘93 before the AFL stepped in?

 

[Tedeski]

Keeping a club afloat is one thing....

Handing them a major advantage over the rest of the comp is another. But Swans fans don’t like acknowledging that

How were things going in ‘93 before the AFL stepped in?

You do realise the AFL has been "stepping in" for most Victorian clubs every year with handouts, to keep the life support going for clubs that are non viable on day to day running of their footy club?
Where does all this cash come from?
TV rights dollars which has grown with the introduction of clubs in the northern states, with the Swans being one of the pioneers.
The sooner you realise that 10 Vic clubs may be a few too many in this "Natinal Competition" the sooner we can sit down & have a better discussion on where my club sits in the grand scheme of things compared to some of the Vic clubs whose AFL handouts/ rorts are dressed up as maintaining & nurturing tradition.

 

[00Stinger]

Guessing you've heard this one, but just in case you haven't (to the best of my memory);

After Brendon Goddard left for Essendon, he was on The Footy Show one night in 2013. Was asked a question about Watters and laughed, and referred to him as 'the dwarf'. Became an in house joke between the St Kilda players around the club which Watters found belittling and insubordinate, so in a fit of rage black listed the name Brendon Goddard from ever being mentioned in his presence again.

He then refused to give Justin Koschitzke his 200th and final farewell game in front of a St Kilda home crowd against a Fremantle side that everyone knew was having their entire team rested. We had won 4 games for the year to that point. Leigh Montagna had to switch his GPS with him during the week to prove he was fit enough to be named, and the whole club fought against Watters to give him the game. He eventually conceded, but in a desperate attempt to show some kind of authority had him as the sub and only gave him 20 minutes in the last quarter of the season.

(Between the end of that game and the next paragraph Mad Monday happened and we all know that story)

Tensions between Riewoldt and Watters became so intense that many believe Nick was prepared to walk out the door to Collingwood at the end of 2013 if he wasn't sacked immediately. Had a massive offer on the table from Eddie McGuire that would have guaranteed anything he wanted post football in a media capacity. Watters wanted him sacked as captain in favour of David Armitage and Tom Lee, but that obviously amounted to nothing and within days Watters was sacked. Hasn't been spoken about since by any past or present players.

Again, we're led to believe that this is only scratching the surface so god knows what else happened at the club in those two years.

while all of that points to Watters most likely needing to go, the whole hiring a midget and setting fire to him still makes those players out be absolute campaigners of blokes.

 

[Quintero]

You do realise the AFL has been "stepping in" for most Victorian clubs every year with handouts, to keep the life support going for clubs that are non viable on day to day running of their footy club?
Where does all this cash come from?
TV rights dollars which has grown with the introduction of clubs in the northern states, with the Swans being one of the pioneers.
The sooner you realise that 10 Vic clubs may be a few too many in this "Natinal Competition" the sooner we can sit down & have a better discussion on where my club sits in the grand scheme of things compared to some of the Vic clubs whose AFL handouts/ rorts are dressed up as maintaining & nurturing tradition.

And where is our dividend for paying off the $1bn asset in Marvel?

20 years we have been ripped off, being forced to play there and hand over a cheque for the privilege.

We would make more money having 5000 turn up to Arden St and selling $2 cans and $1 sausages