Marriage Equality Achieved - (SSM Debate Part 4)

[chelseacarlton]

Thank your less than intelligent fellow Australians...
The ones who would have never been born but for anti-biotics.

It’s not even about intelligence anymore.
As Ferris said, “life moves pretty fast, if you don’t stop and look around once in a while you might miss it”

 

[Mitchell Madness]

Untrue.
Show where there was a vote in ether house on the matter.
Howard implemented it ad hoc off his own bat.

She is on record saying marriage is "between a man and a woman"
She was one of Labour's only members to front the media

 

[Gibbke]

Anyone got an exact breakdown of who voted for what on Aug 16, 2004 in the 38-6 Marriage Amendment Act vote...?

 

[Hawk Dork]

She is on record saying marriage is "between a man and a woman"
She was one of Labour's only members to front the media

Was she just stating the law of that time introduced by Howard as $120 Million wedge ?

To win elections in those days you had to get Western Sydney,Western Sydney was one of the few places that voted no.
They werent going to win an election fighting that battle then.

 

[Mitchell Madness]

Was she just stating the law of that time introduced by Howard as $120 Million wedge ?

To win elections in those days you had to get Western Sydney,Western Sydney was one of the few places that voted no.
They werent going to win an election fighting that battle then.

I don't have the exact quote (and abc have removed the video from youtube) it was along the lines of "we in the labour party strongly agree with Mr Howard that marriage is the act between a man and a woman"

 

[Maggie5]

Actually in 2004 when Howard made changes to the Marriage Act, Labor did go along with it and they didn't allow members a free vote. Think I also recall Penny Wong making a comment that she went along with it despite it not being her personal view.

I thought that Gillard did the reverse, allowed members a conscience vote despite being personally opposed to SSM.

 

[Pie eyed]

She is on record saying marriage is "between a man and a woman"
She was one of Labour's only members to front the media

So this equates to "she voted for it"?
There was no vote.

If you want to completely change your original statement be my guest.

 

[Ned_Flanders]

I don't have the exact quote (and abc have removed the video from youtube) it was along the lines of "we in the labour party strongly agree with Mr Howard that marriage is the act between a man and a woman"

i dont like it, but we as a country were still not ready to accept it back then IMO. Im in my forties, and I still remember when homosexual acts were still illegal in some states, gay people were only hinted at in tv shows (and were completely fruity or freaks), and "dont ask dont tell" was still considered an open minded policy.

thankfully times have changed.

 

[Pessimistic]

Actually in 2004 when Howard made changes to the Marriage Act, Labor did go along with it and they didn't allow members a free vote. Think I also recall Penny Wong making a comment that she went along with it despite it not being her personal view.

I thought that Gillard did the reverse, allowed members a conscience vote despite being personally opposed to SSM.

I remember being bemused that our first PM in a de facto relationship, was strongly criticised for not being an enthusiastic supporter of marriage in any form.
I think she was more an “each to their own” person

 

[Pessimistic]

i dont like it, but we as a country were still not ready to accept it back then IMO. Im in my forties, and I still remember when homosexual acts were still illegal in some states, gay people were only hinted at in tv shows (and were completely fruity or freaks), and "dont ask dont tell" was still considered an open minded policy.

thankfully times have changed.

Presided over by governments who had significant numbers of closet gays in their ranks

 

[Mitchell Madness]

i dont like it, but we as a country were still not ready to accept it back then IMO. Im in my forties, and I still remember when homosexual acts were still illegal in some states, gay people were only hinted at in tv shows (and were completely fruity or freaks), and "dont ask dont tell" was still considered an open minded policy.

thankfully times have changed.

I agree. Seems some are confusing my calling out of the hypocrisy labor have shown with views of homophobia.

Anyone who knows me knows i grew up during the change in acceptance, being exposed to much more than your average person (due to my brother, 15 yrs older than I)
I've seen the change first hand from both perspectives, and seen many lbgt people who have disliked the way members of parliament (particularly labour and greens) have used the issue to score brown points

 

[Hawk Dork]

I agree. Seems some are confusing my calling out of the hypocrisy labor have shown with views of homophobia.

Anyone who knows me knows i grew up during the change in acceptance, being exposed to much more than your average person (due to my brother, 15 yrs older than I)
I've seen the change first hand from both perspectives, and seen many lbgt people who have disliked the way members of parliament (particularly labour and greens) have used the issue to score brown points

What about Howards wedge?

 

[Forward Press]

I agree. Seems some are confusing my calling out of the hypocrisy labor have shown with views of homophobia.

Anyone who knows me knows i grew up during the change in acceptance, being exposed to much more than your average person (due to my brother, 15 yrs older than I)
I've seen the change first hand from both perspectives, and seen many lbgt people who have disliked the way members of parliament (particularly labour and greens) have used the issue to score brown points

A Liberal government just held a national non-binding plebiscite costing millions of dollars to debate the rights of LGBT people and you're accusing Labor and the Greens of being the worst at using them to score brownie points?

You should also look up who was in power when the Marriage Act Amendment Act was passed in 2004.

 

[Ned_Flanders]

I agree. Seems some are confusing my calling out of the hypocrisy labor have shown with views of homophobia.

Anyone who knows me knows i grew up during the change in acceptance, being exposed to much more than your average person (due to my brother, 15 yrs older than I)
I've seen the change first hand from both perspectives, and seen many lbgt people who have disliked the way members of parliament (particularly labour and greens) have used the issue to score brown points

dont disagree some are bandwagoning, but i reckon a lot (from both sides) its also relief at finally being able to be open about this s**t

fwiw you saw similar after prohibition was repealed in the USA, and the absolutist christians post 9-11 (even in the 70's and 80's will everything from Munich to to the hijackings, you never had the open political muslim hate from some we have today)

 

[Pessimistic]

I think it would be a mistake to suggest LGBTI people are natural greens or labor voters, They will have the same range political bias as population at large

 

[Forward Press]

I think it would be a mistake to suggest LGBTI people are natural greens or labor voters, They will have the same range political bias as population at large

Obviously not all of them but a majority of LGBT people would be left leaning. Every poll supports this. It's replicated all around the world.

Ethnic minorities - left leaning
Business owners - right leaning
Women - left leaning
Men - right leaning
Younger people - left leaning
Older people - right leaning

etc

There are exceptions in unique situations - eg Chinese voters in Australia are more right leaning - but overall there is a definite lean with different demographics.

 

[Pessimistic]

At the same time I believe Labor and Greens have benefited greatly from the SSM survey carried out.

1. people who benefitted were happy, but they could see a lot of the Coalitions heart wasn't really in it
2. they energised young people to register to vote (who tend to vote no coalition)
3. they also energised the religious conservatives who, while they will generally vote coalition, are also wielding their influence inside the party, narrowing the parties appeal generally (see next point)
4. they showed some liberal party organizations in some (usually well off) seats that their coalition representative is quite a bit out of step with their constituents values (looking at you Tony) The opposite happened in labor constituencies, but for some reason LGBTI isnt such a political problem for the left.

I'm not saying labor deserved to get this, they would have privately enjoyed the Coalitions discomfort a little too much actually.

 

[Pessimistic]

Obviously not all of them but a majority of LGBT people would be left leaning. Every poll supports this. It's replicated all around the world.

Ethnic minorities - left leaning
Business owners - right leaning
Women - left leaning
Men - right leaning
Younger people - left leaning
Older people - right leaning

etc

There are exceptions in unique situations - eg Chinese voters in Australia are more right leaning - but overall there is a definite lean with different demographics.

Yep. some minorities come from backgrounds where their old country was extreme left or right and they usually lean the other way. eg Cubans in the USA

 

[Forward Press]

At the same time I believe Labor and Greens have benefited greatly from the SSM survey carried out.

1. people who benefitted were happy, but they could see a lot of the Coalitions heart wasn't really in it
2. they energised young people to register to vote (who tend to vote no coalition)
3. they also energised the religious conservatives who, while they will generally vote coalition, are also wielding their influence inside the party, narrowing the parties appeal generally (see next point)
4. they showed some liberal party organizations in some (usually well off) seats that their coalition representative is quite a bit out of step with their constituents values (looking at you Tony) The opposite happened in labor constituencies, but for some reason LGBTI isnt such a political problem for the left

Yep I agree. The emboldening of the RWNJs by Turnbull caving into their ridiculous demand has caused a fracture within the Libs which may never be healed.

The biggest consequence of the SSM plebiscite was getting more young people to register on the electoral roll. Getting more young people politically active is a bad thing for conservative parties.

 

[Pessimistic]

ALP would suffer the same if they had a brain explosion and held a 'survey' on immigration and asylum. They wont.
Yet turnbull and co saw already the position the brexit vote the UK tories into, and decided it was a good idea. Own goal x 4