Matt Horton and sun yang

Did Matt Horton do the right thing in not taking the podium

  • Yes

    Votes: 26 74.3%
  • No

    Votes: 9 25.7%

  • Total voters
    35

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Aussie in exile

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Hardly a PED apologist when legal process has been followed in the Sun Case - Anyway let emotions overcome logic.
My sentiments haven't changed. Horton showed a lack of class in his actions, and I wouldn't want this type of person to have their name on a swimming pool. I'll add this also applies to Sun Yang - I worry for Willie Rioli because WADA treat tampering with a drug sample as more serious than a positive test
The FINA Anti-Doping Tribunal found that one or two of the testers didn't have the right accreditation - Maybe do some research, instead of posting unproven assertions - All will be decided at CAS.
So yes of no, "Are you in favour of punishing drug cheats"
 

Tim Evans Beard

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Sure, he had nothing too hide. :rolleyes:
Why would he break the samples so they could not be tested??
If there were issues with the testing protocols they could still be challenged, no need to damage the samples which could categorically prove his innocence.
With regards to his first offence he was lucky the Chinese authorities did not notify the world body of his cheating until his token 3 month sentence was already served. They have stated they would have appealed the lenient sentence.

Nothing to do with being Asian, it is about cheating.
Think if you check , there may have been 1-200 threads concerning a certain melbourne footy club which was accused of taking PEDs and not keeping/destroying records. They also had nothing to hide??
All speculation and opinion. ‘Drugs in Sport’ has been a political weapon for a very long time.

For example:
RUSADA was had accreditation removed.
Drug Meldonium placed on prohibited substance list.
Prior to RUSADA suspension and Meldonium listing, use of Meldonium widespread in Russian and former Soviet countries.
Russian athletes tested and banned for Meldonium in state sponsored programs after the agency responsible for notification of prohibited substances is suspended.
2017 and 2016 results had France, Italy and the USA as countries with lost banned athletes. Australia came 4th in 2016 - the year of the RUSADA accreditation suspension.

Given the above, it is reasonable to suggest the vitriol directed towards Sun is based on his ‘otherness’ rather than his PED record. These other countries have long histories of cheating and should be held to the same account that others are holding Sun and China.
 

Slartibartfast

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All speculation and opinion. ‘Drugs in Sport’ has been a political weapon for a very long time.

For example:
RUSADA was had accreditation removed.
Drug Meldonium placed on prohibited substance list.
Prior to RUSADA suspension and Meldonium listing, use of Meldonium widespread in Russian and former Soviet countries.
Russian athletes tested and banned for Meldonium in state sponsored programs after the agency responsible for notification of prohibited substances is suspended.
2017 and 2016 results had France, Italy and the USA as countries with lost banned athletes. Australia came 4th in 2016 - the year of the RUSADA accreditation suspension.

Given the above, it is reasonable to suggest the vitriol directed towards Sun is based on his ‘otherness’ rather than his PED record. These other countries have long histories of cheating and should be held to the same account that others are holding Sun and China.
It’s all fact!!! The vials were broken stopping any chance of testing the samples and proving his innocence or guilt.

it is because he tried cheating the system, nothing to do with race.
 

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Kram

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I think this really sums it up.

"it is one thing, having provided a blood sample, to question the accreditation of the testing personnel while keeping the intact samples in the possession of the testing authorities; it is quite another thing, after lengthy exchanges and warnings as to the consequences, to act in such a way that results in destroying the sample containers, thereby eliminating any chance of testing the sample at a later stage."
 

Tim Evans Beard

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It’s all fact!!! The vials were broken stopping any chance of testing the samples and proving his innocence or guilt.

it is because he tried cheating the system, nothing to do with race.
It’s not all fact:
  • Sun did not break the vials - a security member did.
  • The samples may not have ‘ ‘categorically cleared’ him as there was no security around the integrity of the samples
  • He was not ‘lucky’ - this is an opinion.
  • ‘Nothing to do with being Asian’ - has Stuart O’Grady been subject to the same media ostracising? Shanya Jack has the support of Australian swimmers withdrawn or actions publicly critiques?
You are confusing your opinion, interpretation, and speculation with fact.
 

yaco55

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So a guy who knows he is competing against a cheat refuses to respect him and you dont like that???
yep a true EFC appolgist for drug cheats.

why should he be forced to respect a drug cheat????
Your line of thought is absolutely ridiculous. His actions were very appropriate.
It showed true character unlike the drug cheats you love.
You lost it when you stated EFC apologist - I am old and ugly enough to form my own opinions - Horton was criticised by a number of people at the time of his actions in his public denigration of Yang and refusing to stand on the podium at the medal ceremony - It says more about you than me that you think Horton's behaviour still makes him worthy of having his name on a swimming pool at caulfield grammar - Finally, this is not an echo chamber like that other board.
 

yaco55

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I think this really sums it up.

"it is one thing, having provided a blood sample, to question the accreditation of the testing personnel while keeping the intact samples in the possession of the testing authorities; it is quite another thing, after lengthy exchanges and warnings as to the consequences, to act in such a way that results in destroying the sample containers, thereby eliminating any chance of testing the sample at a later stage."
Exactly - As I posted earlier WADA treats tampering with a sample as a more serious offence then a positive test - Yang and his entourage were silly and have paid a severe sporting price - In saying that, Yang will still be revered in China and he'll earn a stack from endorsements.
 

yaco55

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It’s not all fact:
  • Sun did not break the vials - a security member did.
  • The samples may not have ‘ ‘categorically cleared’ him as there was no security around the integrity of the samples
  • He was not ‘lucky’ - this is an opinion.
  • ‘Nothing to do with being Asian’ - has Stuart O’Grady been subject to the same media ostracising? Shanya Jack has the support of Australian swimmers withdrawn or actions publicly critiques?
You are confusing your opinion, interpretation, and speculation with fact.
I will add that I am fascinated how donald Young who wrote the WADA code and was closely involved in a role with FINA, can recuse himself and lead the prosecution at CAS - How he gets away with such obvious ' conflicts of interest' is astounding.
 

Aussie in exile

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What a strange post - I have posted three times that Yang is in trouble if CAS upholds the charge of tampering with his sample - It can't be any clearer - Maybe stop feigning how angry you are and read what I post.
No not a strange post at all.
I do recall you seemed very upset when the Essendon 34 got caught, so i guess you are still bitter and twisted over that.
 

Slartibartfast

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It’s not all fact:
  • Sun did not break the vials - a security member did.
  • The samples may not have ‘ ‘categorically cleared’ him as there was no security around the integrity of the samples
  • He was not ‘lucky’ - this is an opinion.
  • ‘Nothing to do with being Asian’ - has Stuart O’Grady been subject to the same media ostracising? Shanya Jack has the support of Australian swimmers withdrawn or actions publicly critiques?
You are confusing your opinion, interpretation, and speculation with fact.
Fact, vials were broken. They were warned at length about the consequences if this was to happen.
They broke the vials, Sun made no attempt to offer a new sample. Totally complicit.
Yes no security around the samples due to the efforts of Sun and his associates tampering with them. If they had not tampered with them they would have cleared him if he had not doped.
He was lucky he only got 3 months for using a BANNED substance!!
Jack was immediately withdrawn from the team and has not been involved since. Not sure why you raise O’grady , he is a cheat. He confessed.

Your just ignoring the facts.
 

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Slartibartfast

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You lost it when you stated EFC apologist - I am old and ugly enough to form my own opinions - Horton was criticised by a number of people at the time of his actions in his public denigration of Yang and refusing to stand on the podium at the medal ceremony - It says more about you than me that you think Horton's behaviour still makes him worthy of having his name on a swimming pool at caulfield grammar - Finally, this is not an echo chamber like that other board.
You mentioned Horton acting like a fool for disrespecting fellow competitors but is doping an appropriate behaviour. Are other competitors meant to respect this?? Someone has erred by taking a stand against drug cheats??? :rolleyes:

What a wonderful example to have an honest athlete being honoured with his name on a stadium.

You talk about echo chamber then say numbers of people criticised Horton. Who?? What relevance does that make. He was extolled worldwide for his stance Against drug cheats. You seem to miss this point completely. Like he has no right to comment on a guy who deliberately cheated to gain an unfair advantage.
Unbelievable.
 

Tim Evans Beard

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Fact, vials were broken. They were warned at length about the consequences if this was to happen.
They broke the vials, Sun made no attempt to offer a new sample. Totally complicit.
Yes no security around the samples due to the efforts of Sun and his associates tampering with them. If they had not tampered with them they would have cleared him if he had not doped.
He was lucky he only got 3 months for using a BANNED substance!!
Jack was immediately withdrawn from the team and has not been involved since. Not sure why you raise O’grady , he is a cheat. He confessed.

Your just ignoring the facts.
Why would he break the samples so they could not be tested??
Testing occurred with Sun with accredited testers before and after problematic test.

Without correct identification, Sun had no reason to comply - the requesters could have been anyone. This is why correct accreditation is important.

As the samples were not received by correctly identified and credentialed testers, there can be no surety around the security of custody for any sample. This is why correct identification and accreditation is important.

Luck is your opinion.

Jack has not been chastised by Swimming Australia athletes I the same way Sun has. The initial withdrawal reason provided was ‘personal reasons’, not failed drug test. Both Campbell sisters and James Magnussen have publicly come out in support of white, drug cheat Jack.

O’Grady has been confirmed as race director for the Tour Down Under - hardly severe repercussions for a confessed white, drug cheat.

I am pro-facts and clean sport. This has all the hallmarks of a political stitch up.
 

Kram

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lol Shayna Jack is nobody that hasn't won anything or even made an Olympic team. And will get rightfully banned.

Sun Yang has won multiple Olympic medals and smashed world records, it's like as if Ian Thorpe had have got done news wise.
 

Herne Hill Hammer

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Exactly - As I posted earlier WADA treats tampering with a sample as a more serious offence then a positive test - Yang and his entourage were silly and have paid a severe sporting price - In saying that, Yang will still be revered in China and he'll earn a stack from endorsements.
If you refuse a breathalyser by police you are assumed to be guilty with heavy penalties.
 

matthew_s

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This has all the hallmarks of a political stitch up.
Are you sure its not a democrat hoax???

Unfortunately, you cant compare Sun's case with Jack as we didn't find out about Sun's first offence until AFTER he had served his ban.

Comparing Jack, someone with a clean record (until being pinged) with what has just happened with Sun Yang is pretty disingenuous but I suspect that is by design on your part. You clearly have your own agenda.

When the powers that be finally get around to hearing Jack's case and she is (likely) found guilty, she will cop her whack.
 

matthew_s

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lol Shayna Jack is nobody that hasn't won anything or even made an Olympic team. And will get rightfully banned.

Sun Yang has won multiple Olympic medals and smashed world records, it's like as if Ian Thorpe had have got done news wise.

Not to mention, he already got done once...in secret...but yeah its a racist political stitch up...sure.
 

Tim Evans Beard

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Are you sure its not a democrat hoax???

Unfortunately, you cant compare Sun's case with Jack as we didn't find out about Sun's first offence until AFTER he had served his ban.

Comparing Jack, someone with a clean record (until being pinged) with what has just happened with Sun Yang is pretty disingenuous but I suspect that is by design on your part. You clearly have your own agenda.

When the powers that be finally get around to hearing Jack's case and she is (likely) found guilty, she will cop her whack.
Jack’s reasons for removal from the team were kept secret.

It is disingenuous to not acknowledge that the process surrounding both of Sun’s bans are questionable at the same time as ignoring that a significant percentage of ‘western’ athletes get TEU for questionable reasons.

My only agenda is to acknowledge that there are concerns over the process with Sun’s samples and that testers should be held to the same standards as the athletes. Sun may be juiced to the gills - but that doesn’t mean that the test in question can’t also be invalid through process.
 

Crankyhawk

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Jack’s reasons for removal from the team were kept secret.

It is disingenuous to not acknowledge that the process surrounding both of Sun’s bans are questionable at the same time as ignoring that a significant percentage of ‘western’ athletes get TEU for questionable reasons.

My only agenda is to acknowledge that there are concerns over the process with Sun’s samples and that testers should be held to the same standards as the athletes. Sun may be juiced to the gills - but that doesn’t mean that the test in question can’t also be invalid through process.
Did WADA say there were issues with the process or was this a fabrication by Sun’s team
 

Slartibartfast

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Testing occurred with Sun with accredited testers before and after problematic test.

Without correct identification, Sun had no reason to comply - the requesters could have been anyone. This is why correct accreditation is important.

As the samples were not received by correctly identified and credentialed testers, there can be no surety around the security of custody for any sample. This is why correct identification and accreditation is important.

Luck is your opinion.

Jack has not been chastised by Swimming Australia athletes I the same way Sun has. The initial withdrawal reason provided was ‘personal reasons’, not failed drug test. Both Campbell sisters and James Magnussen have publicly come out in support of white, drug cheat Jack.

O’Grady has been confirmed as race director for the Tour Down Under - hardly severe repercussions for a confessed white, drug cheat.

I am pro-facts and clean sport. This has all the hallmarks of a political stitch up.
Your living in fantasy land.
There has been nothing shown that the correct protocols were not followed.
Here is what CAS said,
The CAS Panel unanimously determined, to its comfortable satisfaction, that the Athlete violated Article 2.5 FINA DC (Tampering with any part of Doping Control). In particular, the Panel found that the personnel in charge of the doping control complied with all applicable requirements as set out in the ISTI. More specifically, the Athlete failed to establish that he had a compelling justification to destroy his sample collection containers and forego the doping control when, in his opinion, the collection protocol was not in compliance with the ISTI. As the Panel noted, it is one thing, having provided a blood sample, to question the accreditation of the testing personnel while keeping the intact samples in the possession of the testing authorities; it is quite another thing, after lengthy exchanges and warnings as to the consequences, to act in such a way that results in destroying the sample containers, thereby eliminating any chance of testing the sample at a later stage


As for your hypothesis that it race base just show one fact in the Sun case that even hints at being race related??? Ridiculous.
 

Slartibartfast

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Did WADA say there were issues with the process or was this a fabrication by Sun’s team
It has only been Suns team who have suggested this and have offered no evidence for this. CAS found that all testing protocols had been followed .

it is a classic the dog ate my homework lie to try and get out of trouble.
 

Aussie in exile

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You need to grow up and start making mature posts - When you are focusing on my club allegiance in a discussion then you dont have much - Debate the issue.
Did you not defend your club when the Essendon 34 were being investigated?
Did you defend your club when they kept no records of what was being injected into their players?
Why do you think that your club never kept any records of what was injected into your players?
 

Tim Evans Beard

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Did WADA say there were issues with the process or was this a fabrication by Sun’s team
FINA statement relating to the testing process when allowing Sun to compete:
  • the blood that was initially collected (and subsequently destroyed) was not collected with proper authorisation and thus was not properly a ‘sample’.

WADA has agreed there was only one appropriately credentialed tester, only one male assistant and that a tester took photos of Sun during sample collection. The WADA process requires all testers to be appropriately credentialed, at least two testers to be of the same gender as the athlete, and that athlete anonymity is protected during the testing.

This is all in the FINA investigation and has not been disputed by WADA during the appeal.

Again, these are facts rather than speculation and inference.

Again, this does not prove Sun’s innocence - it establishes flaws with the sample collection.
 

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