Matt Horton and sun yang

Did Matt Horton do the right thing in not taking the podium

  • Yes

    Votes: 26 74.3%
  • No

    Votes: 9 25.7%

  • Total voters
    35

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Tim Evans Beard

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It has only been Suns team who have suggested this and have offered no evidence for this. CAS found that all testing protocols had been followed .

it is a classic the dog ate my homework lie to try and get out of trouble.
CAS found that the sample was valid - not that ALL testing protocols had been followed.
 

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Tim Evans Beard

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So what did Sun have to fear then??
What did he have to hide???

i tell you what, he had doped and he knew he was caught!!!
Speculation - he may have feared tampering by persons without appropriate credentials. He may have cheated - the testers did not follow all testing protocols allowing this to be accurately proven. WADA has not come to this with clean hands regarding the testing.

CAS did not provide a court in Mandarin or Cantonese. CAS did not provide a competent translator during the hearing. CAS has not demonstrated It’s duty to act fairly.

Sun may be guilty and juiced to the gills - that does not mean he can be denied natural justice.

Conversely, why weren’t the testers appropriately credentialed or follow the agreed procedure? Were they attempting to discredit a dominant athlete from a different geopolitical block to discredit a geopolitical rival? Why was the trial not in the native tongue of the accused? Why did FINA officials step down from their posts to take on WADA/CAS roles in a case with an obvious conflict of interest and no appearance of fair and transparent trial?

This should have been a straight forward slam dunk if Sun is as juiced as you state he is.
  1. Rock up appropriately credentialed and take sample
  2. Test sample
  3. Demonstrate PED use
  4. Ban
  5. Answer appeal with ANY lawyer not associated with FINA
  6. Win appeal
The only action that occurred is the last. This test has issues.
 

yaco55

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You mentioned Horton acting like a fool for disrespecting fellow competitors but is doping an appropriate behaviour. Are other competitors meant to respect this?? Someone has erred by taking a stand against drug cheats??? :rolleyes:

What a wonderful example to have an honest athlete being honoured with his name on a stadium.

You talk about echo chamber then say numbers of people criticised Horton. Who?? What relevance does that make. He was extolled worldwide for his stance Against drug cheats. You seem to miss this point completely. Like he has no right to comment on a guy who deliberately cheated to gain an unfair advantage.
Unbelievable.
The fact is that at the time,Yang like many others convicted of a past doping offence was free to compete in sporting events auspiced by the International Sporting Federations, the International Olympic Committee and ultimately the WADA Code which govern's these sports - So no excuse for Horton to act like an 'oaf' in public - There is nothing wrong with showing good sportsmanship - Horton is not the type of alumni that you want to be honored by having their name on a school swimming pool.
 
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yaco55

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Did you not defend your club when the Essendon 34 were being investigated?
Did you defend your club when they kept no records of what was being injected into their players?
Why do you think that your club never kept any records of what was injected into your players?
You are wasting bandwith that could be accessed by others - We are discussing the Yang case - You better move on if you want to discuss other issues.
 

Slartibartfast

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Horton is being compared to peter Norman for his stance in the olympics by Gideon Haigh. Rightfully so to.
He has set a wonderful example for all Australian sportspeople.

But Horton’s stand in South Korea, while divisive for many especially in China, appears to have been vindicated. Respected Australian journalist Gideon Haigh believes the image of Horton refusing to share the podium will “stand up very well in hindsight”.
Haigh even compared the image to one of Australian sports most iconic moments, when Australian silver medallist Peter Norman stood on the Olympic podium alongside African-American athletes Tommie Smith and John Carlos, who won gold and bronze respectively, raising their fists after the 200m final at the 1968 Olympics.

The pair were showing their support for the civil rights movement in the US and stood against racism in their communities.
It’s one of the most iconic photos in Australian sporting history and Haigh believes Horton’s stand could go along side it.
“In some respects, he’s doing that for the mass of other swimmers who swim fairly,” Haigh said on ABC’s Offsiders on Sunday.
“I think those images deserve to be considered in the same light as Peter Norman standing on the podium with John Carlos and Tommy Smith at the Olympics in 1968. The standard we walk past is the standard that we accept.”

interesting that Caulfield grammar did not have concerns with Hortons behaviour as the reason for not naming the stand after him, they were worried about the fiscal implications of upsetting the Chinese which invest in the school. The school have denied this.

Haigh also couldn’t help but take a swipe at Caulfield Grammar — Horton’s former school — who were criticised for not renaming a school pool after the Aussie star, the school’s first Olympic gold medallist.
“Maybe his school can strike a statue of him in that image because frankly he behaved himself exactly as you would hope an old boy of Caulfield Grammar would do,” Haigh added.
“A bit of a contrast to the attitude of the school to him in the past six months. Perhaps the craven souls who’ve decided not to place his name on the swimming pool at Caulfield will reconsider their position.”

Why is it only a couple of apologists for drug cheats seem to be up in arms about Hortons behaviour.
He has set the benchmark for displaying good character !!!
He will always be able to hold his head high with pride unlike a the drug cheat Sun Yang Who was happy to deface the sport for his own personal gain.

 

matthew_s

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WADA has agreed there was only one appropriately credentialed tester, only one male assistant and that a tester took photos of Sun during sample collection.
So technicalities, nothing that would impact the actual collection of the sample (and it didnt, they got a sample)

I'd could understand if Sun had refused to give the sample but giving the sample, changing his mind and using his goons to destroy the sample, yeah sorry.

Still not sure where race comes into it?

Add to the fact that he has a history of doping...the prior history is what adds to the furore around the case in my mind, not race.
 

Tim Evans Beard

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Being technically right is the only type of right. If someone without appropriate credentials asked you for a breath test you can and should refuse. The tester has no authority to request this sample. They may have received a sample, but as the process for collection was not correctly administered, there would be limited confidence in the security regarding chain of custody and integrity of the sample.

The testers and athlete did not have a common language and were relying on translated credentials - once the wider support team identified irregularities with the credentials, the athlete and support team ceased cooperation.

11 of the first 50 posts in this thread negatively referenced China - not Sun. The comments regarding race are a response to this sentiment.

TUE are widespread in countries considered ‘developed western nations’ in the geopolitical sense compared to ‘eastern developing nations’ and ‘African nations’. Yang’s first van was for a prescribed drug for treatment of heart palpitations - a condition Sun has disclosed since 2008. This condition and treatment was know for a long time, including being known by Denis Cotterell. Had Sun been in a developed western nation with a system structured to ensure medical reporting is adhered to, I doubt his first offence would have occurred.
 

Slartibartfast

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Being technically right is the only type of right. If someone without appropriate credentials asked you for a breath test you can and should refuse. The tester has no authority to request this sample. They may have received a sample, but as the process for collection was not correctly administered, there would be limited confidence in the security regarding chain of custody and integrity of the sample.

The testers and athlete did not have a common language and were relying on translated credentials - once the wider support team identified irregularities with the credentials, the athlete and support team ceased cooperation.

11 of the first 50 posts in this thread negatively referenced China - not Sun. The comments regarding race are a response to this sentiment.

TUE are widespread in countries considered ‘developed western nations’ in the geopolitical sense compared to ‘eastern developing nations’ and ‘African nations’. Yang’s first van was for a prescribed drug for treatment of heart palpitations - a condition Sun has disclosed since 2008. This condition and treatment was know for a long time, including being known by Denis Cotterell. Had Sun been in a developed western nation with a system structured to ensure medical reporting is adhered to, I doubt his first offence would have occurred.
What is technically right is the guy cheated. Full stop.

Stop offering ridiculous hypotheticals as to why it he may not be guilty.

He has been found GUILTY of cheating a drug test!!!!

Until the Swiss court comes over the top and overturns the decision you are just talking sh*t!!!
Oh yeah, stop playing the racism card.
Sun lives in a country that has all mod cons including computers just like his other competitors .
He could have checked to see if the drugs he was talking was on the banned list (which it was) .
He should have been banned for longer for that first offence anyway.

This is like déjà vu EFC saga!! :rolleyes:
 

Tim Evans Beard

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Wow - you are really taking this emotionally hard.

You have been caught in half-truths and flawed inferences throughout this thread.

There are concerns over Sun’s test. These concerns had enough validity to see the initial judgement as invalid testing protocols. The appeal has found that the concerns did not establish sufficient concern to not tamper with the sample.

You have been abusive, aggressive and technically wrong with much of the information you have sprouted on this thread. Your opinions are not fact and people who challenge them with facts are not full of sh*t - they are technically correct. The only type of correct.
 

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Aussie in exile

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What is technically right is the guy cheated. Full stop.

Stop offering ridiculous hypotheticals as to why it he may not be guilty.

He has been found GUILTY of cheating a drug test!!!!

Until the Swiss court comes over the top and overturns the decision you are just talking sh*t!!!
Oh yeah, stop playing the racism card.
Sun lives in a country that has all mod cons including computers just like his other competitors .
He could have checked to see if the drugs he was talking was on the banned list (which it was) .
He should have been banned for longer for that first offence anyway.

This is like déjà vu EFC saga!! :rolleyes:
So technicalities, nothing that would impact the actual collection of the sample (and it didnt, they got a sample)

I'd could understand if Sun had refused to give the sample but giving the sample, changing his mind and using his goons to destroy the sample, yeah sorry.

Still not sure where race comes into it?

Add to the fact that he has a history of doping...the prior history is what adds to the furore around the case in my mind, not race.
What is technically right is the guy cheated. Full stop.

Stop offering ridiculous hypotheticals as to why it he may not be guilty.

He has been found GUILTY of cheating a drug test!!!!

Until the Swiss court comes over the top and overturns the decision you are just talking sh*t!!!
Oh yeah, stop playing the racism card.
Sun lives in a country that has all mod cons including computers just like his other competitors .
He could have checked to see if the drugs he was talking was on the banned list (which it was) .
He should have been banned for longer for that first offence anyway.

This is like déjà vu EFC saga!! :rolleyes:
So technicalities, nothing that would impact the actual collection of the sample (and it didnt, they got a sample)

I'd could understand if Sun had refused to give the sample but giving the sample, changing his mind and using his goons to destroy the sample, yeah sorry.

Still not sure where race comes into it?

Add to the fact that he has a history of doping...the prior history is what adds to the furore around the case in my mind, not race.
I say again that in my opinion the Chinese sports people are the East Germans of the 21st century.
 

owen87

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Slartibartfast

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Wow - you are really taking this emotionally hard.

You have been caught in half-truths and flawed inferences throughout this thread.

There are concerns over Sun’s test. These concerns had enough validity to see the initial judgement as invalid testing protocols. The appeal has found that the concerns did not establish sufficient concern to not tamper with the sample.

You have been abusive, aggressive and technically wrong with much of the information you have sprouted on this thread. Your opinions are not fact and people who challenge them with facts are not full of sh*t - they are technically correct. The only type of correct.
6FFF1828-F9F2-48D8-B2E0-2C39CE1E0AB9.jpeg
 

Slartibartfast

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Wow - you are really taking this emotionally hard.

You have been caught in half-truths and flawed inferences throughout this thread.

There are concerns over Sun’s test. These concerns had enough validity to see the initial judgement as invalid testing protocols. The appeal has found that the concerns did not establish sufficient concern to not tamper with the sample.

You have been abusive, aggressive and technically wrong with much of the information you have sprouted on this thread. Your opinions are not fact and people who challenge them with facts are not full of sh*t - they are technically correct. The only type of correct.
Sun Yang is not the one who decides who is qualified and who is not.
He submits to the test then if he has issues with the tests or the testers he can take that up with authorities.

He has made himself judge , jury and executioner . He is none of those. He is just the bloke who is being tested and he has to submit to this . He agreed to do this by participating in the sports.

The reason people who dont allow a test to be completed are deemed guilty is because that is they have something to hide.

He had not right to break the vials.

The guilty Verdict is correct.
 

Tim Evans Beard

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Sun Yang is not the one who decides who is qualified and who is not.
He submits to the test then if he has issues with the tests or the testers he can take that up with authorities.

He has made himself judge , jury and executioner . He is none of those. He is just the bloke who is being tested and he has to submit to this . He agreed to do this by participating in the sports.

The reason people who dont allow a test to be completed are deemed guilty is because that is they have something to hide.

He had not right to break the vials.

The guilty Verdict is correct.
All parties are required to follow the process - if the process is not followed by one party, the obligation for the others to continue is moot. Sun doesn’t not have the authority to decide who is or is not qualified - he has an obligation to submit to reasonable requests from appropriately identified and credentialed persons following agreed procedure. Again you are convoluting your opinion and interpretation with fact.

The collection was not inline with the collection process as proven by the FINA investigation and not challenged during the WADA appeal to CAS. CAS simply found that the irregularities in process were not sufficient to determine the test invalid. FINA found the irregularities were sufficient.

No one can lack the basic comprehension you are displaying here. It has now become obvious to me that you are trolling this thread and have limited value to add to a discussion on obligations and consequences of testing towards a clean sport.
 

Tim Evans Beard

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If a cop asks you for a breath test and he has some civilians with him, see what happens when you refuse.
I'm not sure you have understood my post? Maybe this will make it clearer for you:

The civilians are not part of the process - the process for a breath test only requires a single, authorised and credentialed offical. Breath testing by police has no requirement for privacy, however it can be requested. ISTI requires at least two accurately credentialed representatives, however all representatives must be accurately credentialed (there cannot be uncredentialed observers from the testing agency). ISTI requires confidentiality and privacy.

Also, if an uncredentialed member of the public in the presence of a police officer asks you for a breath test you can and should refuse. Only the appropriately credentialed officer can do this and in this example, and the Sun case, this is not a responsibility you can delegate out to your party. It must be conferred by the governing agency in both cases.
 
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Slartibartfast

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All parties are required to follow the process - if the process is not followed by one party, the obligation for the others to continue is moot. Sun doesn’t not have the authority to decide who is or is not qualified - he has an obligation to submit to reasonable requests from appropriately identified and credentialed persons following agreed procedure. Again you are convoluting your opinion and interpretation with fact.

The collection was not inline with the collection process as proven by the FINA investigation and not challenged during the WADA appeal to CAS. CAS simply found that the irregularities in process were not sufficient to determine the test invalid. FINA found the irregularities were sufficient.

No one can lack the basic comprehension you are displaying here. It has now become obvious to me that you are trolling this thread and have limited value to add to a discussion on obligations and consequences of testing towards a clean sport.
It is simple.

you CANNOT break the samples , this was explained on the day of testing yet they still proceeded to do this. Only thing this achieved was to ensure his suspension.

Regardless of who rolled up to test him, the samples cannot be tampered with and if he has issue with any part of it he can challenge that, but he has NO right to break the vials.

Trolling, last time you said it was abuse. Don’t hide behind lame excuses for you to keep avoiding obvious questions, playing the victim :rolleyes: . When the arguments get tough you run. Glad you have dropped he is the victim of racism. Haha.

He has no right to break the samples????
is this correct???
Tampering with samples, Rioli could tell him what happens when you do this.
Get serious, he cheated, got caught and I have no idea why you are supporting him.

It is very fundamental and you are showing a complete lack of understanding of the doping rules.
Your support for drug cheats really is sad.

I repeat, if he did not like the collection he could challenge that point later but has NO right to tamper with the samples.

That is why he has been suspended.
Simple.
He copped a big sentence because he had cheated previously.
 

Crankyhawk

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Hey - You need to research more before you enter a discussion - It was FINA's anti-doping Tribunal who found Yang had no case to answer because of issues with the testing process.
I’m not sure FINA is trustworthy though. However another poster did confirm that the CAS found only minor issues with the testing process and nothing that would justify sun destroying samples.
It was a question not a statement of fact
 

Tim Evans Beard

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It is simple.

you CANNOT break the samples , this was explained on the day of testing yet they still proceeded to do this. Only thing this achieved was to ensure his suspension.
Valid samples cannot be tampered with. Sun believed this was no a valid sample do to uncredentialed BCO. The uncredentialed BCO also supplied the explanation, not the credentialed DCO. As this was an out of completion test there is requirement for a translator, there was not one present. (For an incompletion test it is not required however it expected the major languages of the event and favourites will have translators supplied). FINA agreed the testing irregularities were sufficient to invalidate the sample. CAS did not.

Regardless of who rolled up to test him, the samples cannot be tampered with and if he has issue with any part of it he can challenge that, but he has NO right to break the vials.
Athletes only have an obligation to comply with those who meet the testing procedure as set out under the WADA ISTI. Appendix E sets out credential identification procedures for DCO (who may also function as chaperone), chaperone, and BCO for blood testing. As the sample collection did not meet the procedure, Sun took a position of not having to comply with an incorrect process. FINA agreed the testing irregularities were sufficient to invalidate the sample. CAS did not.

Trolling, last time you said it was abuse. Don’t hide behind lame excuses for you to keep avoiding obvious questions, playing the victim :rolleyes: . When the arguments get tough you run. Glad you have dropped he is the victim of racism. Haha.
'Trolling: a person who starts quarrels or upsets people on the internet to distract and sow discord by posting inflammatory and digressive, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community with the intent of provoking readers into displaying emotional responses and normalizing tangential discussion, whether for the troll's amusement or a specific gain.'

You have been inflammatory, digressive and extraneous by conflating your opinions as fact and abusing other posters. I have not run anywhere - I am still posting. See post #89 above yours for one of the continued attacks of Chinese. I did not bring up China initially - it started on the first page. I have only responded to it.

He has no right to break the samples????
is this correct???
Tampering with samples, Rioli could tell him what happens when you do this.
Again - I think comprehension has got the better of you. I'm not sure with what you are trying to say and what you have got yourself twisted over. An athlete cannot tamper with a valid sample - an athlete can do whatever they like with a void sample. Rioli tampered with a valid sample with no questions over the accuracy of the process. Sun's team believed the sample to be invalid and gave him the authority to control HIS sample. FINA agreed the testing irregularities were sufficient to invalidate the sample. CAS did not.

Get serious, he cheated, got caught and I have no idea why you are supporting him.
Provide one instance where I have stated support is Sun has cheated?

It is very fundamental and you are showing a complete lack of understanding of the doping rules.
Your support for drug cheats really is sad.
I am well familiar with doping rules - more importantly I am familiar with the need for accuracy in testing. Indeed Nikki dryden (former Canadian Olympic swimmer and now human rights lawyer) raises similar concerns of process. Not once have I, or any of the sources I have supplied (including respected Australian coach Denis Cotterell) have support drug cheats. I have taken a position supporting a clean sport, governed by a competent authority, with an accurate and reliable testing regime.

I repeat, if he did not like the collection he could challenge that point later but has NO right to tamper with the samples.

That is why he has been suspended.
Simple.
He copped a big sentence because he had cheated previously.
I repeat:
An athlete cannot tamper with a valid sample - an athlete can do whatever they like with a void sample. Rioli tampered with a valid sample with no questions over the accuracy of the process. Sun's team believed the sample to be invalid and gave him the authority to control HIS sample. FINA agreed the testing irregularities were sufficient to invalidate the sample. CAS did not.

As I have posted above and you refuse to respond to:

  1. Rock up appropriately credentialed and take sample
  2. Test sample
  3. Demonstrate PED use
  4. Ban
  5. Answer appeal with ANY lawyer not associated with FINA
  6. Win appeal
The only action that occurred was the last.


Your opinions are not fact and you are like a Codd bottle missing its marble - functionally redundant and superseded by better systems.
 
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Tim Evans Beard

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I’m not sure FINA is trustworthy though. However another poster did confirm that the CAS found only minor issues with the testing process and nothing that would justify sun destroying samples.
It was a question not a statement of fact
Whilst your FINA position may have merit - it is important to note that it was the then-FINA appointed lawyer who had a senior role in the FINA investigation into Sun that went on to have a senior role in the CAS hearing / WADA appeal. If he was untrustworthy at FINA would he then be untrustworthy at WADA also?
 

Slartibartfast

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Valid samples cannot be tampered with. Sun believed this was no a valid sample do to uncredentialed BCO. The uncredentialed BCO also supplied the explanation, not the credentialed DCO. As this was an out of completion test there is requirement for a translator, there was not one present. (For an incompletion test it is not required however it expected the major languages of the event and favourites will have translators supplied). FINA agreed the testing irregularities were sufficient to invalidate the sample. CAS did not.



Athletes only have an obligation to comply with those who meet the testing procedure as set out under the WADA ISTI. Appendix E sets out credential identification procedures for DCO (who may also function as chaperone), chaperone, and BCO for blood testing. As the sample collection did not meet the procedure, Sun took a position of not having to comply with an incorrect process. FINA agreed the testing irregularities were sufficient to invalidate the sample. CAS did not.



'Trolling: a person who starts quarrels or upsets people on the internet to distract and sow discord by posting inflammatory and digressive, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community with the intent of provoking readers into displaying emotional responses and normalizing tangential discussion, whether for the troll's amusement or a specific gain.'

You have been inflammatory, digressive and extraneous by conflating your opinions as fact and abusing other posters. I have not run anywhere - I am still posting. See post #89 above yours for one of the continued attacks of Chinese. I did not bring up China initially - it started on the first page. I have only responded to it.



Again - I think comprehension has got the better of you. I'm not sure with what you are trying to say and what you have got yourself twisted over. An athlete cannot tamper with a valid sample - an athlete can do whatever they like with a void sample. Rioli tampered with a valid sample with no questions over the accuracy of the process. Sun's team believed the sample to be invalid and gave him the authority to control HIS sample. FINA agreed the testing irregularities were sufficient to invalidate the sample. CAS did not.



Provide one instance where I have stated support is Sun has cheated?



I am well familiar with doping rules - more importantly I am familiar with the need for accuracy in testing. Indeed Nikki dryden (former Canadian Olympic swimmer and now human rights lawyer) raises similar concerns of process. Not once have I, or any of the sources I have supplied (including respected Australian coach Denis Cotterell) have support drug cheats. I have taken a position supporting a clean sport, governed by a competent authority, with an accurate and reliable testing regime.



I repeat:
An athlete cannot tamper with a valid sample - an athlete can do whatever they like with a void sample. Rioli tampered with a valid sample with no questions over the accuracy of the process. Sun's team believed the sample to be invalid and gave him the authority to control HIS sample. FINA agreed the testing irregularities were sufficient to invalidate the sample. CAS did not.

As I have posted above and you refuse to respond to:

  1. Rock up appropriately credentialed and take sample
  2. Test sample
  3. Demonstrate PED use
  4. Ban
  5. Answer appeal with ANY lawyer not associated with FINA
  6. Win appeal
The only action that occurred was the last.


Your opinions are not fact and you are like a Codd bottle missing its marble - functionally redundant and superseded by better systems.
Stop at the first line , valid sample???
Sun is not the judge if a sample is valid or not.
He supplies the sample then challenges outcome later If he is not happy.
it is that simple .
You seem hell bent on justifying the smashing of the vials, he cannot do this.
End of story.
 

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