Matt Horton and sun yang

Did Matt Horton do the right thing in not taking the podium

  • Yes

    Votes: 26 74.3%
  • No

    Votes: 9 25.7%

  • Total voters
    35

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Slartibartfast

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Jan 16, 2016
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Whilst your FINA position may have merit - it is important to note that it was the then-FINA appointed lawyer who had a senior role in the FINA investigation into Sun that went on to have a senior role in the CAS hearing / WADA appeal. If he was untrustworthy at FINA would he then be untrustworthy at WADA also?
You do grasp that the reason they have such strict rules and penalties regarding tampering with samples is because people tamper with samples to avoid being caught.
Then comes I was robbed, give me a break.
Known drug cheat breaks samples and you are saying he has been hard done by as the tester filled out the paperwork in red ink and not black ink.
CAS made the call, they saw through his lies.
 

Tim Evans Beard

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Apr 9, 2016
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Stop at the first line , valid sample???
Sun is not the judge if a sample is valid or not.
He supplies the sample then challenges outcome later If he is not happy.
it is that simple .
You seem hell bent on justifying the smashing of the vials, he cannot do this.
End of story.
Sun is precisely the person who is responsible for submitting to a valid sampling process. If the process is not valid, an athlete has no reason to submit to the process. Sun and FINA believed the irregularities sufficient to void the samples. CAS did not.

Again you state your opinion as fact and continue to subscribe motivations to my posts that have been statements of fact and providing clarity around the testing process.

Again, Sun did not smash the vials. This was undertaken by a member of the team security under the direction of a senior camp member.

Again, the simplest process:
  1. Rock up appropriately credentialed and take sample
  2. Test sample
  3. Demonstrate PED use
  4. Ban
  5. Answer appeal with ANY lawyer not associated with FINA
  6. Win appeal
The only action that occurred was the last.

The obligation is on the testing team to ensure all process are followed.
 

Tim Evans Beard

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You do grasp that the reason they have such strict rules and penalties regarding tampering with samples is because people tamper with samples to avoid being caught.
Then comes I was robbed, give me a break.
Known drug cheat breaks samples and you are saying he has been hard done by as the tester filled out the paperwork in red ink and not black ink.
CAS made the call, they saw through his lies.
You do grasp the reason they have strict standardised rules and processes for testing are to ensure the credibility of the results?

All I claiming are the irregularities around this test. I have also provided background to the first test. At no time have I claimed there was not a breach - there was a positive test. The substance was subsequently removed from the prohibited list. I have also provided information regarding the nature of the drug and Sun’s requirement. It is heart palpitation medication that prior to removing from the prohibited list was subject to numerous TUE’s by other athletes as provided in the Fancy Bears documents.

You are equating this to the bottle collector who sellers bottles another has stolen from a heritage dig and now claiming rightful ownership of the bottles. Sun’s sample, like the bottles are ill gotten games ...
 

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Crankyhawk

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Whilst your FINA position may have merit - it is important to note that it was the then-FINA appointed lawyer who had a senior role in the FINA investigation into Sun that went on to have a senior role in the CAS hearing / WADA appeal. If he was untrustworthy at FINA would he then be untrustworthy at WADA also?
For me it isn’t necessarily the individual but the culture of the organisation- ie FINA culture vs WADA culture.
So directives from higher than the lawyer influences the arguments.
 

Slartibartfast

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Sun is precisely the person who is responsible for submitting to a valid sampling process. If the process is not valid, an athlete has no reason to submit to the process. Sun and FINA believed the irregularities sufficient to void the samples. CAS did not.

Again you state your opinion as fact and continue to subscribe motivations to my posts that have been statements of fact and providing clarity around the testing process.

Again, Sun did not smash the vials. This was undertaken by a member of the team security under the direction of a senior camp member.

Again, the simplest process:
  1. Rock up appropriately credentialed and take sample
  2. Test sample
  3. Demonstrate PED use
  4. Ban
  5. Answer appeal with ANY lawyer not associated with FINA
  6. Win appeal
The only action that occurred was the last.

The obligation is on the testing team to ensure all process are followed.
The obligation is on Sun not to tamper with the sample. The reason for this is if it was allowed every single doper would say something is not right and not submit a sample.
does not matter if it was him, his mum or whoever from his entourage.
It was discussed and they were warned of the consequences if they did break them.

Sun IS NOT the person to judge if the test was compliant or not, he has to provide a sample and that is it.
it IS FACT that Sun cannot tamper with the sample, this is why he has been suspended.

NO sportsperson can tamper with the sample. They can challenge the results but they CANNOT tamper with the samples.

FACT NOT OPINION
 

Slartibartfast

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You do grasp the reason they have strict standardised rules and processes for testing are to ensure the credibility of the results?

All I claiming are the irregularities around this test. I have also provided background to the first test. At no time have I claimed there was not a breach - there was a positive test. The substance was subsequently removed from the prohibited list. I have also provided information regarding the nature of the drug and Sun’s requirement. It is heart palpitation medication that prior to removing from the prohibited list was subject to numerous TUE’s by other athletes as provided in the Fancy Bears documents.

You are equating this to the bottle collector who sellers bottles another has stolen from a heritage dig and now claiming rightful ownership of the bottles. Sun’s sample, like the bottles are ill gotten games ...
The irregularities were that the samples were tampered with.

CAS deemed the Testing and testers were OK

FACT NOT OPINION
 

Tim Evans Beard

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Apr 9, 2016
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The irregularities were that the samples were tampered with.

CAS deemed the Testing and testers were OK

FACT NOT OPINION
CAS did not deem the testers were ok. CAS determined the irregularities were not sufficient to invalidate the sample. These are seperate issues.

You really are not very good at comprehension are you? You have to be doing this on purpose as you cannot consistently get you facts wrong and claim they are right.
 

Slartibartfast

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CAS did not deem the testers were ok. CAS determined the irregularities were not sufficient to invalidate the sample. These are seperate issues.

You really are not very good at comprehension are you? You have to be doing this on purpose as you cannot consistently get you facts wrong and claim they are right.
That is right, CAS endorsed the testers .

You really are struggling to acknowledge sportspeople cannot tamper with a sample, this is what it come down to, this is what Sun got suspended for.

You refuse to respond to this point. You keep diverting away from this but this is what it is all about. Throw some abuse, play the i have been trolled victim card. Anything to avoid a simple question.
Sportspeople CANNOT tamper with samples?? Do you agree???
 

Tim Evans Beard

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That is right, CAS endorsed the testers .

You really are struggling to acknowledge sportspeople cannot tamper with a sample, this is what it come down to, this is what Sun got suspended for.

You refuse to respond to this point. You keep diverting away from this but this is what it is all about. Throw some abuse, play the i have been trolled victim card. Anything to avoid a simple question.
Sportspeople CANNOT tamper with samples?? Do you agree???
Athletes cannot tamper with a valid sample.

CAS did not endorse the testers. CAS specifically acknowledged the irregularities with the testing process by the testers. CAS deemed these irregularities were insufficient to invalidate the sample.

Do you agree that a test should adhered to established processes agreed to by all parties? If that occured, this would not even be an issue.
 

Slartibartfast

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Athletes cannot tamper with a valid sample.

CAS did not endorse the testers. CAS specifically acknowledged the irregularities with the testing process by the testers. CAS deemed these irregularities were insufficient to invalidate the sample.

Do you agree that a test should adhered to established processes agreed to by all parties? If that occured, this would not even be an issue.
Who decides if a sample is valid, not the athlete themselves???

you do acknowledge athletes cannot be their own referee in drug testing???

if they dont like the test they can appeal.

They have no right to tamper with test , it is that simple.
He had avenues if he had issues with the test.
We would not be here if the vials had not been broken, no other reason.

This is the first and only point that needs to be addressed. For good reason too.

Tampering with a test takes all possibilities of Sun proven his innocence away. Not just proving his guilt.
 

Crankyhawk

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In a way (getting back to the OP) the CAS decision that the athlete does not get to judge the validity of the sample also means that at the time Mack Horton did the wrong thing by staging his protest at his interpretation of the events (where FINA had supported the sample being invalid); irrespective of being shown to subsequently be correct as per CAS (that the sample was not so irregular as to be invalid and destroyed)
 

Tim Evans Beard

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Who decides if a sample is valid, not the athlete themselves???

you do acknowledge athletes cannot be their own referee in drug testing???

if they dont like the test they can appeal.

They have no right to tamper with test , it is that simple.
He had avenues if he had issues with the test.
We would not be here if the vials had not been broken, no other reason.

This is the first and only point that needs to be addressed. For good reason too.

Tampering with a test takes all possibilities of Sun proven his innocence away. Not just proving his guilt.
The first part of a test is establishing the credentials of the testers. If the testers were appropriately credentialed there would be no irregularities regarding credentials. As this was an out of competition test (athlete known to testers) there should have been an interpreter as the testers and athlete did not have a common language. If an interpreter was provided at the beginning of the test, there would be no irregularities regarding informed consent to providing a sample. The testers are chartered with protecting athlete anonymity and privacy. If the testers did not take photos of the athlete, there would be no irregularities regarding athlete rights.

If all these conditions are meet, conditions established by WADA, then the athlete must comply. This is the purpose of code - athlete compliance to fair drug testing processes that protect the athletes rights.

We would not be here if the testers adhered to the process. The process that allowed the Rioli case be free of controversy. It’s not that hard to do the test according to the guidelines.
 

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Slartibartfast

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The first part of a test is establishing the credentials of the testers. If the testers were appropriately credentialed there would be no irregularities regarding credentials. As this was an out of competition test (athlete known to testers) there should have been an interpreter as the testers and athlete did not have a common language. If an interpreter was provided at the beginning of the test, there would be no irregularities regarding informed consent to providing a sample. The testers are chartered with protecting athlete anonymity and privacy. If the testers did not take photos of the athlete, there would be no irregularities regarding athlete rights.

If all these conditions are meet, conditions established by WADA, then the athlete must comply. This is the purpose of code - athlete compliance to fair drug testing processes that protect the athletes rights.

We would not be here if the testers adhered to the process. The process that allowed the Rioli case be free of controversy. It’s not that hard to do the test according to the guidelines.
He did get to the stage of providing a sample which was then broken.

The sample provided WAS tampered with.

We may not be here if the sample was not tampered with . He may have proved his innocence??

He had every right to challenge the test, but no the samples were broken.

None of what you said gives him the right to tamper with the sample provided.!!!
No one has the right to tamper with the sample under any circumstances.
 

yaco55

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I’m not sure FINA is trustworthy though. However another poster did confirm that the CAS found only minor issues with the testing process and nothing that would justify sun destroying samples.
It was a question not a statement of fact
The fact is FINA's anti-doping tribunal threw the case out because the testing process was flawed - Of course you and I can endlessly debate the merits of this decision.
 

yaco55

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Whilst your FINA position may have merit - it is important to note that it was the then-FINA appointed lawyer who had a senior role in the FINA investigation into Sun that went on to have a senior role in the CAS hearing / WADA appeal. If he was untrustworthy at FINA would he then be untrustworthy at WADA also?
Donald Young seems to immune to conflicts of interest in the Anti-Doping area - I'll go a step further and suggest as Young co-authored the WADA Code he should not be involved in any Any Anti-Doping tribunals - Young must be made of teflon.
 

Tim Evans Beard

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Donald Young seems to immune to conflicts of interest in the Anti-Doping area - I'll go a step further and suggest as Young co-authored the WADA Code he should not be involved in any Any Anti-Doping tribunals - Young must be made of teflon.
Richard Young was an odd choice. There are at least a dozen competent sports lawyers I can name of the top of my head who have had no previous contact with the case.
 

Slartibartfast

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Sun Yangs team it has been revealed tried to intimidate testers before and after tests. Great to see this guy will not swim again competitively.

“It was striking that, in the course of his testimony, at no point did the Athlete express any regret as to his actions, or indicate that, with the benefit of hindsight, it might have been preferable for him to have acted differently,” it said. “Rather, as the proceedings unfolded, he dug his heels in and, eventually, sought to blame others for the manifest failings that occurred …

June 24, 2019 — WADA requested a court order prohibiting Sun Yang and his camp contacting witnesses, after providing written statements from a doping control officer and blood collection assistant that indicated they had been contacted by Sun’s entourage and were

“concerned for their physical and economic wellbeing, and for the wellbeing of their family members”. They indicated to be “fearful that, if they would agree to testify in this proceeding, they would suffer significant retaliation in some form from the (athlete) and/or his entourage and supporters”.

September 23, 2019 — WADA indicated there had been “another act of intimidation taken against the blood collection assistant in this case, an act that WADA believes was taken by someone closely connected to this proceeding and intended to influence whether or how the blood collection assistant might testify”. Four days later FINA and Sun objected to the assertion.

October 30, 2019 — WADA informed the court office another act of intimidation had occurred it believed was taken by “someone closely connected to this proceeding … intended to influence how the blood collection assistant and doping control assistant might testify”. Sun and FINA again denied they were responsible.

December 5, 2019 — WADA indicated a video recorded by Sun’s mother had been publicly released depicting the doping control officer and blood collection assistant. WADA also claimed “someone on the athlete’s behalf” had contacted the supervisory body of the hospital where the blood collection assistant worked requesting a meeting with her. Sun again refuted the claims.


December 20, 2019 — WADA alleged Sun had committed an act of intimidation and retaliation against the doping control officer on social media. Sun denied it, emphasising WADA’s English translation of the social media post was incorrect.

 

Duckimus Prime

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All I claiming are the irregularities around this test. I have also provided background to the first test. At no time have I claimed there was not a breach - there was a positive test. The substance was subsequently removed from the prohibited list. I have also provided information regarding the nature of the drug and Sun’s requirement. It is heart palpitation medication that prior to removing from the prohibited list was subject to numerous TUE’s by other athletes as provided in the Fancy Bears documents.
Yeah this is completely inaccurate description of Sun Yang's ban.

Big massive error there, the substance was never removed from the prohibited list. It was reclassified from being as a stimulant banned in competition to being a metabolic modulator that is banned at all times in and out of competition.

The reclassification was making it more banned, not removing it. There was never a case that it was removed from the prohibited list. It was shifted into another catagory, because WADA realised that it was even more of a performance enhancing substance that previously thought.

The Sun Yang wikipedia page pushes the incorrect information, because some journalist made a dumb interpretation of it no longer being classified as a stimulant. It is still listed in the S4 section of WADA's Anti-doping list. https://www.wada-ama.org/sites/default/files/wada_2019_english_prohibited_list.pdf
 
Last edited:

matthew_s

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Yeah this is completely inaccurate description of Sun Yang's ban.

Big massive error there, the substance was never removed from the prohibited list. It was reclassified from being as a stimulant banned in competition to being a metabolic modulator that is banned at all times in and out of competition.

The reclassification was making it more banned, not removing it. There was never a case that it was removed from the prohibited list. It was shifted into another catagory, because WADA realised that it was even more of a performance enhancing substance that previously thought.

The Sun Yang wikipedia page pushes the incorrect information, because some journalist made a dumb interpretation of it no longer being classified as a stimulant. It is still listed in the S4 section of WADA's Anti-doping list. https://www.wada-ama.org/sites/default/files/wada_2019_english_prohibited_list.pdf
You know, there is some low level CCP graduate whose sole job is refresh Sun Yang's wikipedia page and keep that narrative going.
 

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