Matthew Guy. Can a mediocre leader with a 3rd rate team win government?

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Baltimore Jack

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I've said it plenty of times. As soon as they let all these religious nuts into positions of power, they're going to be infested with rats in the ranks.

You cannot trust religious people not to put their religion over everything else. And religious authorities can also convince underlings to do anything in the name of their religion, because they've been taught that since they were children.

I've no doubt this is another hit/takeover from the religious part of the party. They genuinely think there's a groundswell of latent support for their anti-gay anti-education anti-progress agenda if only they were hardline enough. I seriously don't think the Libs will come back from this religious takeover. Too many religious people lining up to join, too few non-nutters with money and common sense willing to put their hand up to support an anti-intellectual party.

Electorally, they should just appoint a nobody and let the focus shift to Andrews and healthcare. Instead this election is going to be a laugh about Guy losing again and the religious rump spouting outrageous crap because there's nothing stopping them, it's not like they stand a chance of winning.

The ALP are running to win an election, the Lib candidates are fighting for control of the Liberal Party. Making Guy lose by as much as possible while putting lots of religious nutters in the upper house. It's going to get worse before it gets better for the Libs. The 2026 election will be the religious nutters in charge. There's not really the prospect of a decent opposition party until 2030 at the earliest.
Nailed it
 

The Cryptkeeper

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I've said it plenty of times. As soon as they let all these religious nuts into positions of power, they're going to be infested with rats in the ranks.

You cannot trust religious people not to put their religion over everything else. And religious authorities can also convince underlings to do anything in the name of their religion, because they've been taught that since they were children.

I've no doubt this is another hit/takeover from the religious part of the party. They genuinely think there's a groundswell of latent support for their anti-gay anti-education anti-progress agenda if only they were hardline enough. I seriously don't think the Libs will come back from this religious takeover. Too many religious people lining up to join, too few non-nutters with money and common sense willing to put their hand up to support an anti-intellectual party.

Electorally, they should just appoint a nobody and let the focus shift to Andrews and healthcare. Instead this election is going to be a laugh about Guy losing again and the religious rump spouting outrageous crap because there's nothing stopping them, it's not like they stand a chance of winning.

The ALP are running to win an election, the Lib candidates are fighting for control of the Liberal Party. Making Guy lose by as much as possible while putting lots of religious nutters in the upper house. It's going to get worse before it gets better for the Libs. The 2026 election will be the religious nutters in charge. There's not really the prospect of a decent opposition party until 2030 at the earliest.

This is all anybody needs to know.

Religion is nothing more than a social control device.
 

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Jascave

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Not the first time an political interview, whether it's on radio, TV or the newspapers ended up being a trainwreck and completely destroying not just the leader's party election hopes, but also his/her's own political career.

Exhibit A: A Current Affair 1993

When the late Mike Willesee asked the then Opposition Leader John Hewson just prior to the 1993 federal election how much a piece of cake would cost under the Coalition's GST, Hewson couldn't give a direct answer.

Willesee replied, 'You do have a problem with the GST.'

Paul Keating went on to win what was termed, 'the sweetest victory of all.'

Hewson lost the leadership to Alexander Downer.
 

The Cryptkeeper

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Not the first time an political interview, whether it's on radio, TV or the newspapers ended up being a trainwreck and completely destroying not just the leader's party election hopes, but also his/her's own political career.

Exhibit A: A Current Affair 1993

When the late Mike Willesee asked the then Opposition Leader John Hewson just prior to the 1993 federal election how much a piece of cake would cost under the Coalition's GST, Hewson couldn't give a direct answer.

Willesee replied, 'You do have a problem with the GST.'

Paul Keating went on to win what was termed, 'the sweetest victory of all.'

Hewson lost the leadership to Alexander Downer.

It's one of the great political stuff ups of all time. I laughed when i saw people comparing Albo not knowing the unemployment rate to Hewson not understanding key elements of the single biggest proposed tax overhaul since Federation.

Hewson went from 50/50 to zero chance of winning in '93 and it only took one question from one of our finest interviewers.
 

Saint

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Is there any other alternatives for the Liberals to turn to just months out from the Victorian state election?
What would the alternative be trying to do? Win the election? Get more religious nutters voted in? What's the job description?

If I were trying to fix the LNP so we have a decent opposition within a few years, I'd let the religious take charge, let them have their election focused on Christian/religious values. Let them crash the party and realise they're not supported at all and shrink back into their shells and leave the party.

Then the sensible people can take control back. For as long as they pretend to be sensible while being backed by nutters it will always spend more time fighting internally than worrying about good government.
 

The Punter

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What would the alternative be trying to do? Win the election? Get more religious nutters voted in? What's the job description?

If I were trying to fix the LNP so we have a decent opposition within a few years, I'd let the religious take charge, let them have their election focused on Christian/religious values. Let them crash the party and realise they're not supported at all and shrink back into their shells and leave the party.

Then the sensible people can take control back. For as long as they pretend to be sensible while being backed by nutters it will always spend more time fighting internally than worrying about good government.

This entire plan is predicated on a logical conclusion being taken by certain people about the reason for failure.

I can tell you right now there is a significant section of the party who think the Liberals lost the federal election because it moved too far to the left.

Conventional political wisdom is largely based on people realising and appreciating a truth. But then that truth is denied, what hope have we got?

I would humbly suggest that if the "religious" took charge and then lost, they would blame the others for not being supportive enough, or pushing the party to the left, or that it was the media's fault, or the school system, or another miscellaneous cause.

They won't "realise they're not supported at all" regardless of result.
 

Saint

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This entire plan is predicated on a logical conclusion being taken by certain people about the reason for failure.

I can tell you right now there is a significant section of the party who think the Liberals lost the federal election because it moved too far to the left.

Conventional political wisdom is largely based on people realising and appreciating a truth. But then that truth is denied, what hope have we got?

I would humbly suggest that if the "religious" took charge and then lost, they would blame the others for not being supportive enough, or pushing the party to the left, or that it was the media's fault, or the school system, or another miscellaneous cause.

They won't "realise they're not supported at all" regardless of result.
That's probably right, but they're not going to stop until they've had their shot. If they were still a minority of the party, they'd do what they did a decade or so ago and leave the party, create Family First, get no votes and realise they should just go back to the Libs.

But now they're in charge of the Liberal Party and they want to make the party into Family First.

We need a decent opposition to keep Govt honest, it's an important part of democracy. The ALP know they can get away with anything at the moment.

In a week where the health crisis is winding down (hopefully), politics has been about how the opposition leader is possibly corrupt rather than fixing the health system.
 

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The Punter

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That's probably right, but they're not going to stop until they've had their shot. If they were still a minority of the party, they'd do what they did a decade or so ago and leave the party, create Family First, get no votes and realise they should just go back to the Libs.

But now they're in charge of the Liberal Party and they want to make the party into Family First.

Just on the quoted section: I'm not sure they have a majority of party members, but their world view certainly means they are extraordinarily motivated to work towards their objectives. I would also point out that they team up with other groupings in the party as mutually convenient. Those groupings also tend to be well-motivated.

Being a moderate doesn't tend to get people off their backsides.
 

Saint

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Just on the quoted section: I'm not sure they have a majority of party members, but their world view certainly means they are extraordinarily motivated to work towards their objectives. I would also point out that they team up with other groupings in the party as mutually convenient. Those groupings also tend to be well-motivated.

Being a moderate doesn't tend to get people off their backsides.
You're right, they're probably using their position as separate from the IPA/Neolibs vs the moderates as Kingmaker at the moment. Perhaps the majority will eventually get together and kick them out of leadership positions but now they have the top spot on the upper house tickets, they'll be around for a long time.
 

Dave

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I would humbly suggest that if the "religious" took charge and then lost, they would blame the others for not being supportive enough, or pushing the party to the left, or that it was the media's fault, or the school system, or another miscellaneous cause.

That's exactly what they'd do. No chance they'd accept they are wrong.
 

moistie

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What would the alternative be trying to do? Win the election? Get more religious nutters voted in? What's the job description?

If I were trying to fix the LNP so we have a decent opposition within a few years, I'd let the religious take charge, let them have their election focused on Christian/religious values. Let them crash the party and realise they're not supported at all and shrink back into their shells and leave the party.

Then the sensible people can take control back. For as long as they pretend to be sensible while being backed by nutters it will always spend more time fighting internally than worrying about good government.

It would be good for the evangelical RWNJ to show their true colours and run on a faith based platform but they shoukd have enough self awareness to know it would bury them. And the Liberal brand is too useful for them to give up, there's rusted on votes there.

However, if the fundies ran an 'honest' election it doesn't matter if the nutters are later driven out, the damage they would do to the Liberal's name would be the death knell for the party.

As it is, after the last three years they are in the nose with the electorate, something like that would be drop the blinds and shutter the windows on the Liberal party. A new conservative party would have to coalesce to fill the political space once filled by the party of Menzies

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The Punter

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Dude Howard's dad was a member of the New Guard.
He's no moderate.
Kennett, lol, also not a moderate.

The difference was they were better at selling their s**t / lived in a time where they felt the need to hide.

RW politics globally right now is getting pretty brazen because they've figured out how to make it work

Woody Harrelson does not agree with this application of the "guilt by family association" rule.
 

Saint

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It would be good for the evangelical RWNJ to show their true colours and run on a faith based platform but they shoukd have enough self awareness to know it would bury them. And the Liberal brand is too useful for them to give up, there's rusted on votes there.

However, if the fundies ran an 'honest' election it doesn't matter if the nutters are later driven out, the damage they would do to the Liberal's name would be the death knell for the party.

As it is, after the last three years they are in the nose with the electorate, something like that would be drop the blinds and shutter the windows on the Liberal party. A new conservative party would have to coalesce to fill the political space once filled by the party of Menzies

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Yeah, in true Christian style, they're justifying the white-anting and undermining of a political party by pledging dishonest allegiance to the existing Liberal Party knowing full well they want to change it.

Religious people can justify any sort of poor behaviour.
 

The Cryptkeeper

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Yeah that's great but Woody Harrelson isn't Howard.

Howard's policies can, however be linked back to new guard values

John Howard is the single most overrated PM in the history of this country. To the ignorant and frankly braindead Tory supporters he is held up as some sort of hero. In reality however, he sold this country for some magic beans.

I genuinely hope that if there is a hell (there isn't but anyway) that Howard burns there for eternity.
 

Jascave

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John Hewson could sympathise with Matthew Guy over the effect a 'trainwreck' interview could have on his party's chances of winning the election and his own politicial career, becaue as I said before in my earlier post, he was subject to a 'trainwreck' interview with the late Mike Willesee just prior to the 1993 federal election over the GST, which not only cost the Coalition big time on election night (losing to Paul Keating), but his own political career as well.
 

Millky95

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John Howard is the single most overrated PM in the history of this country. To the ignorant and frankly braindead Tory supporters he is held up as some sort of hero. In reality however, he sold this country for some magic beans.

I genuinely hope that if there is a hell (there isn't but anyway) that Howard burns there for eternity.
He took away the guns though which is a surprisingly off-brand conservative move and what he is most remembered for
 

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